こにちは, Hi i'm New *\(^o^)/*

[poci]

 

こにちは、Hi everyone, I speak English and a little Japanese but not that good. I like pretty much anything to do with the arts & media and have several skills related to that. I like making people happy & having fun. In the future I want to be a pioneer in the media industry some day. 

I'm very shy but I Hope to be good friends with you^o^。。。。

 

I am a plan theist neither secular or religious searching for the meaning of life, and searching for truth.

I'll accept anything so long as there's evidence for it, weather i like it or not. I hope i can be a positive presence in this community and hopefully find support and love here cause i am not doing well, but i will be a lot better off i know true love exists.

I've studied Theology, Philosophy, Science, History and several worldviews and put them to the test of logical consistency, relevancy, and coherence, etc.

I am also very very sad and confused cause i don't know what the meaning of my life is or why i am here and why life is so painful. Who am i, why am i here? What is the meaning of life? How can purpose, fulfillment, and satisfaction in life be found?  I am  struggling already with stressful situasstions as it is and i cant find the drive to keep going  on, it is difficult, better yet imppossible.  Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live.

 

Everyone of us holds many beliefs, By and large, we hope that our beliefs are not irrational or unreasonable. And the more strongly we hold a set of beliefs, the stronger we hope that they are not irrational. Beliefs aren’t just something we have, they are part of who we are; abandoning them is destabilizing and painful. But they aren't meant to be defended at all costs, we submit humbly to our understanding of Truth. Though evidence and proof establishes justified belief, Arguments can only remove doubt, they can not convict people of truth. But i have a heart to receive whatever may be true. 

It is my epistemic duty to be open to being wrong and that is why i am here. Though not a dogmatic atheist i am a classic atheist (dont belive in certan types of god) but some of the beliefs atheism holds to i just dont find true with what i have been learning so far. i want to be established in by beliefs so i may go on living my life with security and a foundation rather then a nonsensical void. im hoping i may find friends here that can help answer some questions and doubts i am having; i know many here dont think Objective truth is real and thats fine but i just dont wanna be seen here as pushing my views on anyone cause i honestly feel this is a blowing strike to your entire worldview and just wanna here from you; I actually like a challenge and want you to search for yourself to see if what i belive is "true". I just cant see how that is possible, i just never seen it done.

 

Truth is always here, its up to us to aline our perception to it.

 

Thank you very much for reading threw and welcoming me into the community, i look forward to good discutions and friendships here.(:

 

Note:

i enjoy information presented in a way that doesn't stink of secular arrogance and holier-than-thou crap.

“It is easy be brilliant when you do not believe in anything.”- Goethe

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Welcome @poci.  I look forward to hearing more from you.  Sorting through all the confusion is not an easy task; but there is a shortcut: there is no "truth" or "meaning" except what you make for yourself.

[Damehal]

Hello!  I am also new to this forum and Atheism really.  It is always interesting to me, when we let go of religion, we think that there is no one out there who possibly thinks like us.  Poci I am in a similar situation, however I can't give any answers.  I have stopped looking for the "why".  We need to find our own truths starting with self reflection and meditation.  

[LogicalFallacy]

Welcome Poci

[♦ Fuego ♦]

And welcome Damehal also!

 

Poci, I think that humans are the odd creatures that look for meaning and patterns, since our forte as animals is not in sight, hearing, smell, or strength, but in abstract thinking. This is what gives us the ability to create language, math, tools, farming, engineering, storytelling, weapons, art, music, philosophy, and religions. Cultural traditions condition us to think that there must be a meaning to life. The other animals don't appear to "go there", but instead live life gathering food, finding a mate, and making more of them until they finally die. Not that they have no abstract thought at all, it is just that humans take that ability and run with it. 

 

I think that most likely, there is no meaning per se, but we can decide to live for a cause or purpose if we choose. Many atheists choose to be overtly kind, and to make kindness their "religion", not because they expect a reward from a god, or to avoid threats by a god, but because it makes life better for everyone when humans tend towards kindness (rather than indifference or coldness). Other than that choice, we do the things that bring us joy and find others with whom we can enjoy life. That has become more difficult with the current pandemic, but we do what we can until we have a way out of it. 

[poci]

15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Welcome @poci.  I look forward to hearing more from you.  Sorting through all the confusion is not an easy task; but there is a shortcut: there is no "truth" or "meaning" except what you make for yourself.

Thank you very much it is nice to meet you and everyone here. I do not deny Truth & Meaning exist im just trying to learn about it and why secularism denies it. I believe because they think its Rosy Colored glasses but just cause there's meaning in something doesn't make it positive as im Nihilistic. I look forward to learning more about atheism and make new friends www^-^

[poci]

15 hours ago, Damehal said:

Hello!  I am also new to this forum and Atheism really.  It is always interesting to me, when we let go of religion, we think that there is no one out there who possibly thinks like us.  Poci I am in a similar situation, however I can't give any answers.  I have stopped looking for the "why".  We need to find our own truths starting with self reflection and meditation.  

Thank you its nice meet you and hope you make many friends here and ill be yours as well LOL . I have not denied Truth exists just learning the methodology for understanding it more. You are correct that self reflection and meditation is our starting point but when i say you are correct i mean you are objectively correct not merely that it is a good opinion. Thank you again very much for the support and i hope to support and uplift my fellow peps here as well.

[poci]

15 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Welcome Poci

thank you and yes Agreed. We must follow evidence were ever it leads and accept Truth even if we don't like it. I am happy you still believe in Truth cause i see the others commenting believing it is not real which is very dangerous thinking. I am confused though, i though in athiesm Morals were subjective correct? But anyways, grateful to be here and thank you very much for having me^o^

[poci]

11 hours ago, Fuego said:

And welcome Damehal also!

 

Poci, I think that humans are the odd creatures that look for meaning and patterns, since our forte as animals is not in sight, hearing, smell, or strength, but in abstract thinking. This is what gives us the ability to create language, math, tools, farming, engineering, storytelling, weapons, art, music, philosophy, and religions. Cultural traditions condition us to think that there must be a meaning to life. The other animals don't appear to "go there", but instead live life gathering food, finding a mate, and making more of them until they finally die. Not that they have no abstract thought at all, it is just that humans take that ability and run with it. 

 

I think that most likely, there is no meaning per se, but we can decide to live for a cause or purpose if we choose. Many atheists choose to be overtly kind, and to make kindness their "religion", not because they expect a reward from a god, or to avoid threats by a god, but because it makes life better for everyone when humans tend towards kindness (rather than indifference or coldness). Other than that choice, we do the things that bring us joy and find others with whom we can enjoy life. That has become more difficult with the current pandemic, but we do what we can until we have a way out of it. 

hi Damehal, yes i agree this is true. i don't know if your conclusion from these facts means "Meaning" is subjective cause it looked like you were unsure. There are objective, concrete normative criteria for what constitutes meaning in life and we our evolution has developed us to seek for patterns which is true in all animals for Pattern Recognition is how Knowledge is possible and Logic derives from Order. In an absolute Chaotic universe science wouldn't be possible for we wouldn't be able to process info form patterns to convert into knowledge. For knowledge to be true it must be unchangeable, as must the object of that knowledge; and grounded in something unreliant. And we manage and shape principles, data and theories. The most common definitions of meaning in life involve three components. personal meaning as the- Cognizance of order, Coherence and purpose in one's existence, and The pursuit and attainment of worthwhile goals. In science this is called the DIKW Pyramid (DATA, INFO, KNOWLEDGE, WISDOM). Science is purpose driven. we do not merely learn about chemicals and physics for observation/habit we have a goal to benefit humanity. We are wise unto a Goal. Purpose, understanding, responsibility, and enjoyment give life Objective meaning. You need to choose a worthy purpose or a significant life goal. You need to have sufficient understanding of who you are, what life demands of you, and how you can play a significant role in life. You and you alone are responsible for deciding what kind of life you want to live, and what constitutes a significant and worthwhile life goal. You will enjoy a deep sense of significance and satisfaction only when you have exercised your responsibility for self-determination and actively pursue a worthy life-goal. This is the method called PURE  developed  by T.P Wong. The last 3 you may not fully accept but the first letter "P" (IKIGAI) Model which the Japanese developed many people are hard pressed to at least practically deny even if so reluctantly intellectually. It is the convergence of four primary elements: Passion, Mission, Vocation, and Profession establish "P"- Purpose. Your you Love, Needs, get Paid for, and are Good at. "P" is used to indicate the source of value in one’s life or the things that make one’s life worthwhile. 

 

As far as with other things The types of meanings vary according to the types of the thing that is being represented. Namely:

•There are the things in the world, which might have meaning;

•There are things in the world that are also signs of other things in the world, and so, are always meaningful (i.e., natural signs of the physical world and ideas within the mind);

•There are things that are always necessarily meaningful, such as words, and other nonverbal symbols.

 

If you would like to chat more about this stuff id love to share with you what ive been learning and my sources, sites, articles, lectures, books, etc i learned from lol. And no worries if we dont agree i still love discussing these things.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I am confused. In your original post you said you were sad and confused about meaning and purpose.  Then in your last post you go into one of the most detailed explanations of them I have seen, offering to share even more.  Perhaps you can clear up my confusion??

[◊ Krowb ◊]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

I am confused. In your original post you said you were sad and confused about meaning and purpose.  Then in your last post you go into one of the most detailed explanations of them I have seen, offering to share even more.  Perhaps you can clear up my confusion??

 

It's some form of copy/paste. The spelling, grammar, and syntax choices do not match the initial posts.  OP is definitely doing some research and sharing it with us.

 

@poci I'm also interested to read up on your latest post, can you share where that came from?

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I'm out. I am no longer interacting with the poster, but with a wall of words from other people. Like conversing with a bot. 

[poci]

On 11/6/2020 at 12:51 PM, Weezer said:

I am confused. In your original post you said you were sad and confused about meaning and purpose.  Then in your last post you go into one of the most detailed explanations of them I have seen, offering to share even more.  Perhaps you can clear up my confusion??

You mean my last comment? i am new to this format im sorry, like on other platforms we have a post and down bellow are comments lol so sorry if im slow on these use of terms. Yes i am still sad and confused but not about weather there is meaning and purpose, this has been establshied threw the sciences and philosopy. but that doesnt tell us what the meaning is. i do have some conviction of what i belive it may be. but my cofustion comes form so many people saying diffrnet stuff and or debating weather it does and doesnt and eveybody is always so made at each other and it makes me wanna cry (i have). then i go into thinking about how love is real or nobody cares about me and how much i suck at just being a good person. i just keep hearing how shitty i am. i try apologising as much as i can but i dont wanna be a push over ether. so ye its that stuff. and sure i would love to share my stuff with you lol. do you know if there is a chartroom on this site?

 

also i see some words in Blue next to yours, are those your words?

[poci]

On 11/6/2020 at 3:02 PM, Krowb said:

 

It's some form of copy/paste. The spelling, grammar, and syntax choices do not match the initial posts.  OP is definitely doing some research and sharing it with us.

 

@poci I'm also interested to read up on your latest post, can you share where that came from?

It is copy/paste, most of it is my notes i have from websites, podcasts, YouTube lectures, slide share, etc. I am on philosophical and scientific Social Media apps and we talk about deep stuff alot and often times i have had to repeat myself so i just saved what i had said before for later conversations and stuff. and ye sure id love to share my sources lol. idk much but im thankful for the stuff i was able to learn about.  Btw do you know if theres a chartroom on this platform?

 

http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/tisthammerw/science.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

https://medium.com/thrive-global/ikigai-the-japanese-secret-to-a-long-and-happy-life-might-just-help-you-live-a-more-fulfilling-9871d01992b7

https://www.ontotext.com/knowledgehub/fundamentals/dikw-pyramid/

[◊ Krowb ◊]

Are you reading any primary sources?  Most of your cited sources appear secondary at best.  Much of philosophy is difficult to grasp and two readers can eek out entirely different meanings from many such texts.  Much like the Bible in that regard.

 

This is not a post-modernist critique btw, but simply an observation.

[alreadyGone]

Hi poci !

I am happy and honored to meet you.

 

You wrote:

"I am also very very sad and confused cause i don't know what the meaning of my life is or why i am here and why life is so painful."

 

From your introduction, it seems unless I am mistaken that you are not formerly a Christian believer.

I mention this because that eternal question (cited in your post above) seems to appear very early in the process that many go through and what many of us experience as we depart our former Christian belief.

(this was true for me, and probably is still today)

 

For myself, I begin to ask why it is that humankind seems to assume that there is or must be some higher purpose in living.

 

The thought occurs to me, one of the short stories of Arthur C. Clarke, titled "The Nine Billion Names Of God" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God 

addresses this question in a very entertaining way..

 

 

 

I look forward to more of your thoughts.

 

[alreadyGone]

Well... bless my soul...  Someone on this youtube presentation reads aloud the story "The Nine Billion Names Of God" as the text displays as a graphic.

(duration 18:44 minutes)

 

 

 

 

[poci]

18 hours ago, Krowb said:

Are you reading any primary sources?  Most of your cited sources appear secondary at best.  Much of philosophy is difficult to grasp and two readers can eek out entirely different meanings from many such texts.  Much like the Bible in that regard.

 

This is not a post-modernist critique btw, but simply an observation.

Besides the Wikipidia articles i dont think so. But that wouldnt mean the information is incorrect. if you know any primary sources i can read on both sides id appreaciate it.The IKIGI like i said was formed by the Japaneses collectively i dont think it was by just 1 individual. and T.P Wong developed the PURE method. then i went and studied the topic under each letter and just put it all together and it made sense. I unfoutuantly dont have a Batulars or PHD and only my labtop to research. I am also studying how to research proberly to avoid bias, i may not be great but im willing to be wrong. i dont like telling peps that cause theyll usually condem and mock that i didnt research good and as fellow humans of the same species we should work together to try and build earch other up not tear each other down. if we make mistakes we shouldnt rube it in their face, embarress and humiliaty them. every person is valuable and deserves a chance to get it right. I know alot of secular peps dont like talking about lifes meaning so if im not allowed to talk about it i wont. but it is somthing i am mainly concerned out and important for to me. i will get help els were.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@poci,  As I'm sure you'll find as you continue your research journey, the answer is not 42.  In fact, no one seems yet to have struck TRUTH as it applies to the meaning of life.  Religions attempt to answer this question, yet are mostly mutually exclusive.

 

The research you've shared thus far all does point to a common thread: the answer to the question of meaning cannot be divorced from question of values.  Here then I would recommend research into moral philosophy and here you find the question turns from "meaning of life" to how to live a good or moral life.

 

Some readings I'd recommend for competing views, in no particular order (I am rather unfamiliar with Eastern theories, so most of these will be Western sources):

1. "After Virtue" - Alasdair Macintyre (though I take issue with his climax: "the good life is that which is spent pursuing the good", the book itself provides a compelling argument for virtue ethics)
2. "Utilitarianism" - John Stuart Mill
3. "Meditations" - Marcus Aurelius
4. Nietzsche (still working through his corpus) - Nihilism is the end for many, but should not be. It is only when we recognize our systems have no foundation and emerged for benefit a specific moment in time, that we can begin to build anew systems and structures better suited to the current world rather than the past.
5. "Nichomachean Ethics" - Aristotle
6. "The Analects" - Confucius
7. Buddhist Scriptures - also provides an insightful read when divorced from theological overtones.

I intentionally left out deontological discourses as I do not find them persuasive in the aggregate, but if you wish, Immanuel Kant's "categorical imperative" is where you want to begin.

 

I hope you find this listing useful.

 

[poci]

20 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

Hi poci !

I am happy and honored to meet you.

 

You wrote:

"I am also very very sad and confused cause i don't know what the meaning of my life is or why i am here and why life is so painful."

 

From your introduction, it seems unless I am mistaken that you are not formerly a Christian believer.

I mention this because that eternal question (cited in your post above) seems to appear very early in the process that many go through and what many of us experience as we depart our former Christian belief.

(this was true for me, and probably is still today)

 

For myself, I begin to ask why it is that humankind seems to assume that there is or must be some higher purpose in living.

 

The thought occurs to me, one of the short stories of Arthur C. Clarke, titled "The Nine Billion Names Of God" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God 

addresses this question in a very entertaining way..

 

 

 

I look forward to more of your thoughts.

 

I kinda am and kinda not, i a little bit in Limbo right know with my worldview. Ive been atheist, then plan theist, mesothesit, then christian, then plan theist, now i may be Buhddist and Toasit and after discovering the evidence im thinking about becoming christian agian but i wanted to talk to ex christians to see why they think the evidence isnt conclussive so that i may make an informed decition. but i dont wanna be harassed, if that happens ill just have to keep looking for another community thats willing to help and accept me but i not here to convice anyone of my views i just need the challage to help me think about it. and cool, i just read threw it on youtube. was it ment to be an apologetic? it seemed more like a comedy and the main point to humor the thought of objective meaning. It seemed like it assumed its view was true and was just trynig to answer the Q of why peps belive what they do about religion. like the error in Sigmud Freud's Argument Agasit theism. but it was very good. im gonna show this to my secular friends and see what they think. does this place have a chartroom do you know?

[poci]

46 minutes ago, Krowb said:

@poci,  As I'm sure you'll find as you continue your research journey, the answer is not 42.  In fact, no one seems yet to have struck TRUTH as it applies to the meaning of life.  Religions attempt to answer this question, yet are mostly mutually exclusive.

 

The research you've shared thus far all does point to a common thread: the answer to the question of meaning cannot be divorced from question of values.  Here then I would recommend research into moral philosophy and here you find the question turns from "meaning of life" to how to live a good or moral life.

 

Some readings I'd recommend for competing views, in no particular order (I am rather unfamiliar with Eastern theories, so most of these will be Western sources):

1. "After Virtue" - Alasdair Macintyre (though I take issue with his climax: "the good life is that which is spent pursuing the good", the book itself provides a compelling argument for virtue ethics)
2. "Utilitarianism" - John Stuart Mill
3. "Meditations" - Marcus Aurelius
4. Nietzsche (still working through his corpus) - Nihilism is the end for many, but should not be. It is only when we recognize our systems have no foundation and emerged for benefit a specific moment in time, that we can begin to build anew systems and structures better suited to the current world rather than the past.
5. "Nichomachean Ethics" - Aristotle
6. "The Analects" - Confucius
7. Buddhist Scriptures - also provides an insightful read when divorced from theological overtones.

I intentionally left out deontological discourses as I do not find them persuasive in the aggregate, but if you wish, Immanuel Kant's "categorical imperative" is where you want to begin.

 

I hope you find this listing useful.

 

Cool thank you, i will check them whenever i get the chance. But why not just be a Deist, that seems all those objections accomplish. There all secular correct? and ive Been reading Nietzche who is my fav so far, Sigmud Freud, Carel Jung, Jordan Peterson, Ludwig Feuerbach, and my 1st Fav Athiest philosopher Jean Paul Sartre. I have already been in Moral Philosophy and others such as logic, ontology, epistemology, metaphysics, religion/secularism, philosophy of history, a little political philosophy and more as well as Theology, science, History & Research methodology. so im familer with what your explaining about meaning entaling value. If there isnt any meaning then theres no such thing as an Objective Good life cause you need a framwork to measure Goodness and atheism rejects that notion. it also rejects Truth which i just cannot accept cause it is self evident to us. The statment "The is no God" is ether a true or false statment. if it were not objectivly true or false then theres no such thing as Athiests or Theists and wed all have to be Strong Agnostic. Science would be an utter failure to since knowlege depends on true statments and simply pron to Practicalism. But are you actually an agnostic or aganostic atheist then? Most of my atheist friends say that is what they mean by it.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

I did not pay attention this was in the introductions. Welcome and I hope you have a fruitful time here with us.

[Joshpantera]

On 11/6/2020 at 7:13 AM, poci said:

I do not deny Truth & Meaning exist im just trying to learn about it and why secularism denies it. I believe because they think its Rosy Colored glasses but just cause there's meaning in something doesn't make it positive as im Nihilistic. I look forward to learning more about atheism and make new friends www^-^

 

Welcome poci! 

 

I wouldn't worry too much about secular denial of truth and meaning. That's more or less limited to a post modernist philosophical worldview, which, is transparently errant on many fronts as you may or may not know. I wouldn't blanket the whole of secular society with it. 

 

The thing about meaning is that it IS what you make of it. But underneath all of that lies the foundation of existence itself. Why does anything exist to begin with?

 

There doesn't seem to be one fixed answer to the question. And meaning gets caught up in this underlying issue. 

 

Existence simply exists, it is what is taking place and what we are consciously experiencing in various subjective (from the mind outward), and personal perspectives. But there is clearly an objective reality of some type, whether or not we observe it in a direct way. The evidence shows that we do not experience reality directly. There's a great deal of subjectivity involved. But it would seem that some energies do exist beyond our bodies and mind which are then interpreted within the mind as color, or sound, and objects abroad external to our bodies and minds. 

 

The claim that all objective reality is nothing more than a projection outwards from within the mind seems very lacking. It looks to be a combination of both and not all subjective or all objective as an opposite claim. 

 

These are some teasers from previous threads of conversation here among the agnostics and atheists, and agnostic atheists, and pantheists, and neo pagans and everyone else who fits in somewhere into the ex christian community abroad. 

 

Feel free to dive in with what ever is on you mind.