Western society was built on Judeo-Christian values

[LostinParis]

Is this true?

I often hear this statement from christians who insist that without Judeo-Christian values we would be worse off as a society. As if believing in god for the sake of tradition will prevent us from becoming morally bankrupt or something.

How best to reply?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Divine Right and Manifest Destiny were both "Judeo-Christian" ideologies that fueled rape, genocide, torture, human-trafficking, enslavement... so, yeah, without that "moral compass" to guide us, there's no telling what kind of peace and equality we might be capable of.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

That's kind of a weird argument to make.  Those same Judeo-Christian values, while static in the book, have been wholesale reinterpreted to meet the whims of the society.

 

You should ask them to clarify which values exactly?  Western Society has included these very specific religious gems:

 

• The Inquisition
• Indulgences (sold for hundreds of years)
• The Crusades
• Salem Witch Trials
• European Wars of religion (30 years war among others)
• And the Professor's inclusion:
  • Divine Right
  • Manifest Destiny

Your questioner needs to clarify which values for which period of time they are referencing - since these values are anything but set in stone.

 

To make their argument work they would need a comparison of non-Judeo-Christian and pre-Christian societies to determine if the lack of their value set would indeed make society worse off. If they agree . . . and I assume they must, that even past versions of the Judeo-Christian tradition made society worse off, then you're not actually discussing Judeo-Christian morals at all, but the currently in vogue morals that have been retrofitted to the Bible.

 

It's an incredibly weak argument.

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

[mwc]

     Everyone knows that "Judeo-Christian Values" is code for "Anything and Everything Good" as opposed to "Bad Stuff."  That's why we can ignore wars, slavery, genocides and all that sort of thing.  So, yes.  When you beg the question in that fashion it simply has to be that way.

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

17 hours ago, LostinParis said:

Is this true?

I often hear this statement from christians who insist that without Judeo-Christian values we would be worse off as a society. As if believing in god for the sake of tradition will prevent us from becoming morally bankrupt or something.

How best to reply?

 

Judeo Christian values like inherited guilt? 

Infinite punishment for finite crime? 

Crimes that arent really crimes? (Not loving Jesus)

Not allowing gay people to marry for some arbitrary reason? 

What 'value' says that some psycho can murder and rape his whole life, but be granted forgiveness by Jesus right before he dies? 

Which 'value' says that you should disown or badger your child about Christianity when you find out they are atheist or gay?

 

Is China or India or Japan worse off than the USA? How do you measure "worse off" ? Which of the Judeo-Christian values does Mr Orange role model for us in the USA?

 

Maybe reply that some of the morals that we hold dear to our hearts pre-date Abrahamic religions ... and laws in the western world ignore most of the bible commandments. 

[Myrkhoos]

The problem is that that statement is very vague. And why Judeo and Christian? And not just Christian? The influence of Jews on mainstream West was minuscule from what I know? And Christianity, like many religions, is a complex structure of practices, beliefs , values, encompassing a whole range from human nature. You can find notions of freedom, love, etc in most places because that is the human experience in general, but expressed in different ways.

      Of course, one cannot overstate the historical influence of that religion in Europe (.and the asian part of Russia) and European colonies in South and North America. But, many things that people value today - human rights, democracy, freedom, gender equality, were more the result of anti religious secularisation than other things. You could look at the first movements that proposed equal voting rights for all citizens. They appeared after secularisation in the 18 and more in the 19th century.

     And , to be noted, the Islamic world was on the same road to secularisation in many places in the 19th, 20th century before things got royally fucked- many times with the help of outside westerm forces who prefered self professed jihadists as opposed to socialists. See the overthrow of the regime before the shah of Iran. See what is happening in Syria. The support of Bin Laden by US in the afghan russian war. The buddy friendship with Saudi Arabia of the same US , arguably more dictatorial than IRAN. 

 And even now the US and western Europe big bussiness likes having economic colonies rather than political ones with quasi client states. 

       So I would say the west looks like it looks now( good and bad as it may be)  because of a slow road to secularism away from religious values. I mean the US Constitution is a product of influence from rationalist thinkers owing to ppl like Voltaire Hume, Jefferson etc. 

[LogicalFallacy]

A read of 'A History of Western Philosophy' by Bertrand Russell will make you realize that Western Society is built on a lot more that Judaeo-Christian values.

[Joshpantera]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:20 AM, LostinParis said:

Is this true?

I often hear this statement from christians who insist that without Judeo-Christian values we would be worse off as a society. As if believing in god for the sake of tradition will prevent us from becoming morally bankrupt or something.

How best to reply?

 

In short, they're idiots. 

 

Many posts above explain very well as to why these christians are being idiots and not thinking...

[midniterider]

"Thomas Jefferson introduced pasta to America in 1789."

 

https://eatwheat.org/learn/spaghetti-facts/

 

That same year, President Washington sent the Bill of Rights to Congress. I think it's obvious western society and the USA in particular was built on Pastafarian values. 

 

Praise the FSM. 

[LostinParis]

Lots to discuss with my christian friends, thanks guys!

[AntiChrist]

On 12/11/2020 at 6:20 PM, LostinParis said:

Is this true?

I often hear this statement from christians who insist that without Judeo-Christian values we would be worse off as a society. As if believing in god for the sake of tradition will prevent us from becoming morally bankrupt or something.

How best to reply?

Not true (As you know) Human compassion and empathy is a natural inborn trait; among our other beneficial traits. It's people's beliefs that turn those essential traits on or off.

 

(You didn't know that. Did you?)

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@LostinParis  I have a feeling they'll pull the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Don't let them get away with it.  It would seem quite bizarre if True Christianity only arose in modern times and for 2k years almost everyone had a false understanding of Christianity - even though the past false Christians were nearer to, if not contemporaneous with, Biblical events.

 

There is a second problem with attempting to exclude the very clear examples of previous Christian values as not being True Christian:  if those values (which we today condemn as misogynist, racist, and just plain evil - slavery) can be supported by Scripture, were supported by Scripture, and were followed for 100's of, if not >1,000, years yet were not "Christian", then you're right back at your starting point.  What makes a Christian and what are "Christian values".

 

Call them out each time they revise, exclude, deflect, and go on the offensive.  They are making the claim and that claim must be supported - pointing to non-Christian counter-examples bears no weight to the truth value of their argument.  Life is more than a mere dichotomy.

 

You can quite literally pin them in circles until they grow frustrated and refuse to continue.

[pantheory]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:20 AM, LostinParis said:

Is this true?

I often hear this statement from christians who insist that without Judeo-Christian values we would be worse off as a society. As if believing in god for the sake of tradition will prevent us from becoming morally bankrupt or something.

How best to reply?

 

Don't know if we would be worse off, but we would behave a little differently as a whole I would expect. Look at the two societies that were generally purged of religion, Russia and China. The problem is that the purging was done by a dictator so the behavior of the survivors and families suffer the effects of those oppressive regimes aside from religion. That being said, I have traveled to both countries and the people themselves seem well adjusted and as much morally considerate as western or eastern societies founded on religious principles IMO.

[TABA]

18 hours ago, pantheory said:

Look at the two societies that were generally purged of religion, Russia and China. The problem is that the purging was done by a dictator so the behavior of the survivors and families suffer the effects of those oppressive regimes aside from religion.

 

Good point. The brutality that millions endured at the hands of anti-religious regimes in Russia and China during the 20th Century left long-term scars on those populations.  On the other hand, societies that moved away from Christianity at their own pace and without coercion have fared rather well.  Not only that, but Russia has seen a rebound toward Orthodox Christianity and social conservatism.  

[Myrkhoos]

There human values, and each culture has a slightly different recipe. 

      Take siurdough bread. It is basically JUST flour and water and heat. But so many combinations are possible.

       By the way, as a citizen of an ex so called communist cou tries, Romania, that type of communism looked a like a fanatical cult - complete with the idea of building "a new man" , the end goal of an utopia - communist society, high oriest and clergy -leader and communist central comitte, processions songs pledges of allegiance inquisition like stuff etc. With lots of hypocrisy of course

[Joshpantera]

23 hours ago, TABA said:

Good point. The brutality that millions endured at the hands of anti-religious regimes in Russia and China during the 20th Century left long-term scars on those populations.  On the other hand, societies that moved away from Christianity at their own pace and without coercion have fared rather well.  Not only that, but Russia has seen a rebound toward Orthodox Christianity and social conservatism.  

 

Trying to force purge religion always sounds like a bad idea. Especially considering the history of those who have tried doing so. Makes for a breeding ground for martyrs and missionaries in the aftermath and wake of it.

 

Secular northern Europe, as you've rightly pointed out, went a different route. They simply outgrew the religion over time and evolved into a majority secular situation. In that situation, martyrs and missionaries have little to no edge on the society. People have simply outgrown that sort of proselytizing and are more likely to be immune to such a thing. And with little, if any interest in what the proselytizers are selling. 

 

Western society is in the process of changing. Regardless of what it was built on. Western society was usurped by judeo-christian beliefs during the dark ages and over time has been growing beyond those beliefs, firstly in Europe. The US is running behind somewhat as a younger nation. But over time seems to be headed in the same general direction. I don't think the British Commonwealth nations are especially religious anymore either. 

[Wertbag]

The other thing to consider is the western world is capitalist democracies, both terms you won't find in the bible.  All of the lands in the bible's times were ruled by monarchies and that was considered the norm.  Western societies freedom, progress and wealth is due to these structures, none of which came from Christianity.

In America the founding documents specifically limit religion and give freedom to all beliefs, again not a Christian idea.

Also all of the important parts of the 10 commandments existed in civilisations throughout history that pre-dated Christianity.  "Thou shalt not kill" was not a revolutionary idea.  Pity the 10 commandments didn't mention rape, assault or slavery...

 

Christians confuse the idea of "He's a good person because he's Christian" with "He's a good person and he's Christian".  Good people are good people regardless of religion.  Empathy is not learnt only in church.

[Joshpantera]

On 12/21/2020 at 2:32 PM, Wertbag said:

The other thing to consider is the western world is capitalist democracies, both terms you won't find in the bible.  All of the lands in the bible's times were ruled by monarchies and that was considered the norm. 

 

Alan Watts has some lectures that have been cut up into youtube videos. He lectured about the above. The scope of knowledge of the bible writers didn't extend beyond the concept of a celestial monarchy. They were not seeing into the remote future beyond their own, contemporary monarchial, kingly court, type formats. There's no sense of monarchy being a man made concept and system and a transcendent god going "beyond," by definition, these man made ideas.

 

It's just another one of the many little points that reveal the human origin of biblical writings and shortsightedness of the writers. 

 

On 12/21/2020 at 2:32 PM, Wertbag said:

Western societies freedom, progress and wealth is due to these structures, none of which came from Christianity.

In America the founding documents specifically limit religion and give freedom to all beliefs, again not a Christian idea.

 

All of these successes came despite, not because of, christianity. Including the success of leaving behind slavery. Per the bible, slaves never should have been freed. Slaves should have been content to obey their masters and that's it - that's the extent of the mindset and foresight of the biblical writers. 

 

I guess it's hard for a lot of christians to wrap their minds around these simple facts - it's hard for christians to wrap their minds around a lot of things. Just because a majority of christians have resided in western culture doesn't equate to judeo-christian values having built western society. Obviously that isn't true. Regardless of the existence of a christian majority within western culture. Western culture has been christian only in name more so than in practice when you look at it this way.