It never made sense

[Crove]

Hi, I'm new, Christian for 20 years.  I've always been an unbiased reader of the Bible, kept seeing ridiculous contradictions and ironies.  And for a religion that profess to be seekers of the truth, they ignore these truths and rather believe a lie that it doesn't exist.

 

So I've quit and now I'm here, hoping to find good answers in my continuing quest for the truth!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

[Crove]

10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

I just did!  The present-day Christians miracles is one I still can't wrap my head around.  Particularly those of supernatural provisions.

 

I practice critical thinking and it's critical thinking that got me away from Christianity.  As a critical thinker, I don't dismiss claims that easily, I investigate.    But my investigation of such miracles is only leading me to things like the occult.

 

[Moonobserver]

2 hours ago, Crove said:

Hi, I'm new, Christian for 20 years.  I've always been an unbiased reader of the Bible, kept seeing ridiculous contradictions and ironies.  And for a religion that profess to be seekers of the truth, they ignore these truths and rather believe a lie that it doesn't exist.

 

So I've quit and now I'm here, hoping to find good answers in my continuing quest for the truth!

As the saying goes, "Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who 'find' it."

[Crove]

20 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

As the saying goes, "Believe those who seek the truth; doubt those who 'find' it."

 

Not knowing the truth is difficult predicament on the mind though.  Really screws the mind.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I start with verifiable reality, such as the history of the Bible. When I first started openly questioning (many believers shelve their honest questions just to keep going), the evil nature of the god of the bible, the clear not-eyewitness-testimonies of the gospels, and then a slew of knowledge about the bible simply being fictional stories that include real places and people are what sealed the deal. Once I saw through the lies of the faith, the constant excuse making that was called faith, the failed promises we were supposed to reinterpret as God faithfully answering, and the constant imaginary spiritual warfare all went silent and I could see a very interesting world of cultures, music, food, fun, and more to explore. 

 

After that, I began exploring the world that I previously thought was all demon infested. I listened to and tried out some "new age" ideas and practices, eventually didn't really resonate with them and settled into more of a vibe-with-nature sort of place spiritually. That keeps me keen on science and fact while appreciating the vast capacity for abstraction and virtual experiences that the mind can provide. 

 

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

15 hours ago, Crove said:

I've always been an unbiased reader of the Bible, kept seeing ridiculous contradictions and ironies. 

A GoodChristian(tm) is supposed to lie about having read the bible, rather than actually read it! Reading the bible is a fast track to apostasy xD Glad you see the light and may you have good luck and fortune in pursuing the truth!

[Moonobserver]

19 hours ago, Crove said:

 

Not knowing the truth is difficult predicament on the mind though.  Really screws the mind.

Yet I find a measure of comfort in the uncertainty. It can be humbling while piquing the curiosity and helps one identify with others on different paths with the same goal. If the Universe sets a game of Follow-the-Arrows before us, let's play along with gusto.

 

 

 

CORD THE SEEKER: Are there others ahead of me?

 

MONKEY KING: You are the first to pass me. But other Seekers have other Trials.

 

--"The Silent Flute" (aka "Circle of Iron")

[alreadyGone]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:06 AM, DestinyTurtle said:

A GoodChristian(tm) is supposed to lie about having read the bible, rather than actually read it! Reading the bible is a fast track to apostasy xD Glad you see the light and may you have good luck and fortune in pursuing the truth!

 

A very devoted and dedicated Baptist minister, upon my mention of the old testament, declared angrily "it's a condemnation machine!".

What followed of course was a variation on "John 3:16 is all you really need to know".

 

 

[alreadyGone]

On 12/26/2020 at 10:10 PM, Crove said:

 

Not knowing the truth is difficult predicament on the mind though.  Really screws the mind.

 

I truly do not mean to trivialize your comment...

 

And this is almost too obvious to post: 

Not knowing the truth can be traumatic when you previously believed you did understand and know the truth.

Its the loss of that belief that can be difficult for some to handle.

 

Of this I am certain: truth doesn't care what any of us think about it or how we feel.

 

 

 

 

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

3 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

A very devoted and dedicated Baptist minister, upon my mention of the old testament, declared angrily "it's a condemnation machine!".

What followed of course was a variation on "John 3:16 is all you really need to know".

That's interesting because my Calvinist dad often downplayed John 3:16, explaining that it doesn't mean what people think it means because "the world" that God "gave his son for" refers only to the elect and not to the un-elect. You determined who was 'elect' in part by how seriously they studied and abided by the old testament (with a few exceptions, like laws/rules pertaining to the temple or food-related laws - also the list of old testament laws you were supposed to take seriously were always in flux and inconsistent).

 

This is to say that Christians can't even come to a consensus about what passages/books of the bible are important!

[alreadyGone]

I was largely ignorant of Calvinism and the PCA until early this year.

I met a young man who is a member. 

I haven't time here, by determination or predestination to follow all that at the moment.

It's a different world.

 

Occurs to me that Protestant Christian churches in the US do not teach the young what other faiths may believe. Hmmm.  None of which I was a member ever delved into it. At all, as if taboo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LostinParis]

On 12/27/2020 at 2:10 PM, Crove said:

 

Not knowing the truth is difficult predicament on the mind though.  Really screws the mind.

For me, not knowing became easier over time. Very uncomfortable at first, but now strangely liberating.
 

I don’t think we can possess absolute truth about anything. This may all be a dream. I may be just a brain attached to a computer inside the Matrix. Who knows? Who cares?

[Crove]

On 12/30/2020 at 5:08 AM, LostinParis said:

I don’t think we can possess absolute truth about anything. This may all be a dream. I may be just a brain attached to a computer inside the Matrix. Who knows? Who cares?

 

It's a huge problem I think.  We could have wasted our whole lives, time and energy for nothing or worse, every thing we ever did served to damage our reality.

 

Not knowing if we ever did.

[Crove]

On 12/30/2020 at 1:15 AM, alreadyGone said:

 

I truly do not mean to trivialize your comment...

 

And this is almost too obvious to post: 

Not knowing the truth can be traumatic when you previously believed you did understand and know the truth.

Its the loss of that belief that can be difficult for some to handle.

 

Of this I am certain: truth doesn't care what any of us think about it or how we feel.

 

I was fortunate enough to have seen through the false teachings in Christianity little by little throughout many years.

 

The money / mammon idolatry in mainstream Christianity led me to find that apostle Paul is an "anti-christ" character - literally preaching stuff that is "anti" or in opposition to the teachings of the christ.  And finally to the realization that the Christian religion is a Roman fabrication by none other than the old Roman Empire.

 

When the final blow struck, I was numb to the effect.

 

My mind is still screwed like what happens AFTER we die.

[LostinParis]

5 hours ago, Crove said:

 

It's a huge problem I think.  We could have wasted our whole lives, time and energy for nothing or worse, every thing we ever did served to damage our reality.

 

Not knowing if we ever did.

 

 

Christianity offers us certainty. I had to learn to be comfortable with uncertainty.

Would you live your life any differently if there were no god? No heaven or hell?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, Crove said:

 

It's a huge problem I think.  We could have wasted our whole lives, time and energy for nothing or worse, every thing we ever did served to damage our reality.

 

Not knowing if we ever did.

Try the tea experiment.  Sit down and make yourself a cup of tea (or coffee).  See if you can enjoy that entire cup of tea without worrying about knowing the truth, then get up and worry some more.  If you can, do it a few more times for practice; and put yourself to making the most absolutely perfect cup of tea you can make.  Literally, focus on the tea.  If you find you can't, keep doing it until you can.  Once you do it successfully a couple of times, then move up to the full meal experiment.  Eventually, you should start to recognize those worrying thoughts when they appear; and you should also realize that it is not necessary to entertain them.  You don't have to give "the truth" any more of your head space.  

[Joshpantera]

On 12/26/2020 at 7:12 PM, Crove said:

Hi, I'm new, Christian for 20 years.  I've always been an unbiased reader of the Bible, kept seeing ridiculous contradictions and ironies.  And for a religion that profess to be seekers of the truth, they ignore these truths and rather believe a lie that it doesn't exist.

 

So I've quit and now I'm here, hoping to find good answers in my continuing quest for the truth!

 

Hi Crove, and welcome!!!

 

So which contradictions and ironies stood out at you? Curious to know what order you started seeing them in. 

[Joshpantera]

On 1/1/2021 at 1:20 AM, Crove said:

The money / mammon idolatry in mainstream Christianity led me to find that apostle Paul is an "anti-christ" character - literally preaching stuff that is "anti" or in opposition to the teachings of the christ.  And finally to the realization that the Christian religion is a Roman fabrication by none other than the old Roman Empire.

 

Paul is older than the gospels by way of scholarly view. So you picked up on something that then leads into a rabbit hole. Paul does read as "anti" to content of the gospel jesus. But you have to then go deeper and consider the issue against the fact that Paul came before the written gospels. So who is "anti" of whom in this context?

 

That's where the arguments about whether gnostics or orthodoxy came first fall into view. Or whether they both co-existed earlier than imagined but the orthodoxy was able to over come the gnostics with time. The real history there is foggy and uncertain. 

 

That's not to say that one of the two is truer than the other, of course. My guess is that they're equally false in terms of literal or historical content. They're both two renditions of mythology - one esoteric, the other exoteric in scope and presentation. 

 

And as to the role of the Romans, who knows? These are very uncertain waters in reality. 

[Crove]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:22 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

Hi Crove, and welcome!!!

 

So which contradictions and ironies stood out at you? Curious to know what order you started seeing them in. 

 

Hello Josh, I think it started when read the whole New Testament for the first time.  I didn't find any contradictions in the Bible at first but found that most Christians "cherry-pick" bible teachings (pick one teaching over the other) to suit their "antichristian" lifestyle which is ironic.  By biblical standards such attitude is hypocrisy, one of the worst offenses a person can make according to the Bible.  This makes most christians anti-christ, anti-god, anti-bible which is the biggest irony of all.

 

Then comes the contradictions - if christians cherry-pick teachings then these teachings are probably in conflict / contradiction with one another and true enough, that is the case.  The huge esteem of worldly wealth in Proverbs that most christians love vs the very low, evil value put to money by jesus and somewhat held in neutral ground by apostle paul.  And many other contradictions - this led to me to the realization that the bible is  either NOT divinely inspired, even demonic, or might actually be divinely inspired but serving a different purpose - to test humanity.

 

One thing led to the other if you got false teachings in the bible, what else is false?

[♦ Fuego ♦]

3 hours ago, Crove said:

One thing led to the other if you got false teachings in the bible, what else is false?

 

That was the pivotal question I asked in my mid-deconversion. "What else have I believed that is a lie?" I physically squirmed because I knew where that was going, but also knew that I had to pursue that and not make excuses for "God" anymore.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"How much of what I believe do I believe because I really believe it; and how much of what I believe do I believe because somebody else told me to believe it?"  That is how the question presented itself to me. 

[TABA]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"How much of what I believe do I believe because I really believe it; and how much of what I believe do I believe because somebody else told me to believe it?"  That is how the question presented itself to me. 

And the sad thing is, most people go through their whole lives without ever asking themselves that question.  So it has always been and so it will likely always be: times change but human nature changes very little over time.  The truth is, it can be a very difficult question to face up to.  I wish I had asked it many years earlier.  But my life is better because I finally did.  

[alreadyGone]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"How much of what I believe do I believe because I really believe it; and how much of what I believe do I believe because somebody else told me to believe it?"  That is how the question presented itself to me. 

 

And then realize how many there are around you always with intent to influence belief in your mind to suit their purposes. I mean really realize.. and face that, as a fact of living here among them.

 

[ag_NO_stic]

Crove- This journey can be very painful, depending on how invested you were in your faith. My sympathies. If you're interested, you can search through older posts I've written, when I was a new ex-christian on this site, where I explore this pain more in depth. You can see my first posts where I'm angry or freaking out and you can read this one, most current, where I am literally at peace, SO grateful for the experience and people on this site. I can encourage you that (now that I'm on the other side of it) my life is infinitely better and more rewarding because I was willing to face it. I am still very spiritually alive, you don't have to become embittered (though grief has its place), it just has nothing to do with the catastrophe that was my previous faith.  Some thoughts to help you along this journey, take them or leave them:

 

- The best thing I did for myself in all this was to stop listening to other people and taking THEIR words as truth. I took what others said into account, sure, but after years of suspending my thoughts for "God's," I started listening to MY THOUGHTS about my research and that has been very rewarding for me. That includes this advice or the advice of others on this site. We're all winging it here, no need to ignore your own thoughts and feelings for some other dumb human's, even if they are "smart." 

 

- If it is "truth" you are pursuing, have you defined what that means to you? Is it a subjective, personal, relative "my truth" or an objective, universal, "truth" that you feel you have not yet grasped? Defining this could help you figure out what you're looking for.

 

- Now that you are not hell-bent (heh) on trying to make your life and everything around you fit with with those beliefs, feel free to do the opposite and look around you for truths in life that make sense to you and affirm what you already believe to be true. I don't mean confirmation bias, I mean be willing to drop a belief if it doesn't make sense instead of trying to force it into a reality that is more comfortable to you. Let things speak for themselves and just be, your interpretation of what is around you is what will make or break your story.