Present day Christian Miracles, where do they come from?

[Crove]

Although I am no longer a Christian, after being a Christian for 20 years, I really can't shake the reality or facts about miracles many Christians experience and share through testimonies. 

 

Some of them are relatives and seeing a profound change in their prosperity and generally, their lives literally overnight, they're definitely not lying about it.

 

My specific questions are miracles like someone praying for a lucrative opportunity or financial support and the very next day, they get an anonymous donor or anonymous tip, granting exactly their prayers.

 

How did that happen?  Telepathy? The devil? Magic? A comprehensive "Occult infrastructure" accessible via certain (deceived) mindset or "faith"?  When many more people are experiencing the same thing, it's beyond uncanny but something is at work beyond human perception.  I have doubts that Christians are sourcing their supernatural provisions from a benevolent supreme being but rather a malevolent one as mainly their actions serve to support those in power who oppresses the weak.

 

That is simply my opinion....  Not necessarily supported by comprehensive studies on the matter of supernatural, magic, etc.

 

I believe it is real, there is no changing that but where does it come from?  Thanks!

 

 

[Crove]

Correction: (can't figure out how to edit my post).  I meant some of the Christians who gave these miraculous testimonies are relatives of mine.   I've personally witnessed their lives change overnight from a huge anonymous / random help from strangers!  So they're not making these up.

[pantheory]

16 hours ago, Crove said:

Correction: (can't figure out how to edit my post).  I meant some of the Christians who gave these miraculous testimonies are relatives of mine.   I've personally witnessed their lives change overnight from a huge anonymous / random help from strangers!  So they're not making these up.

 

Crove, welcome to X-Cristian network. Very much hope you come to like it here The editing function becomes available through continued postings when you have shown to be non-malicious and a non-commercial poster. I'm guessing after a couple of weeks or couple of dozen postings or so. If you see a moderator in this or another thread ask him how long it takes.

 

"Present day Christian Miracles, where do they come from?"

 

".......some of the Christians who gave these miraculous testimonies are relatives of mine.   I've personally witnessed their lives change overnight from a huge anonymous / random help from strangers!  So they're not making these up."

 

Beliefs that change ones life for the better are generally a good thing IMO, even if the beliefs are wrong.  For instance, I am an atheist and believe my life is far better because I believe knowing the truth of reality is far better than believing a fantasy. But I realize that some people need religion for many different reasons.

 

As to your question about miracles:

 

The simple truth is that there is no such thing as miracles period, not now, and there never was, although there have been almost countless events that seem to have been miraculous when explained by their believers.  Even your own or loved one's experiences, if you knew all of the scientific facts involved, including both the medical and physical facts etc., and if you could understand the details of these facts, then you would realize that all so-called miracles of the present or past were all either fabricated stories, imagined, based on wishful thinking, fraud, little white lies, pranks, delusions, fantasies, illusions, hallucinations, drug or alcohol induced, imagined, magic tricks, misunderstandings of the facts, realistic dreams, misinterpretations of reality etc. .

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

35 minutes ago, Crove said:

can't figure out how to edit my post

Once you get a certain number of posts, the edit feature will be unlocked for you.  But first, this unicorn will lead you on a side quest to obtain the Sword of Rapunzel.   

[Crove]

9 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Crove, welcome to X-Cristian network. Very much hope you come to like it here The editing function becomes available through continued postings when you have shown to be non-malicious and a non-commercial poster. I'm guessing after a couple of weeks or couple of dozen postings or so. If you see a moderator in this or another thread ask him how long it takes.

 

"Present day Christian Miracles, where do they come from?"

 

The simple truth is that there is no such thing as miracles period, not now, not ever. Although there have been almost countless events that seem to have been miraculous when explained by believers, or even your own or loved one's experiences, if you knew all of the scientific facts involved, including both the medical and physical facts etc., and if you could then understand the details of these facts, then you would realize that all so-called miracles of the present day, or in past times, were all either untrue stories, fantasies, magic tricks, or misunderstandings of the facts or of reality itself.

 

Thanks!

 

I agree with you about "modern medical miracles"  As they can easily be explained with science.

 

Quote

........or misunderstandings of the facts or of reality itself.

 

The "anonymous help miracles" from complete strangers, as immediate consequence of prayers is something I cannot wrap my head around.   These strangers did receive instructions from "God" to provide help.  Even getting the name of the person to help accurately.  Christians don't usually lie in testimonies.  They believe and fear hell enough not to lie deceive the congregation and from personally witnessing my relatives who had these experiences.

 

 

[Crove]

32 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Once you get a certain number of posts, the edit feature will be unlocked for you.  But first, this unicorn will lead you on a side quest to obtain the Sword of Rapunzel.   

 

Thanks, that was strange feature. Haven't seen one before but I respect your rules!

[pantheory]

15 hours ago, Crove said:

 

Thanks!

 

I agree with you about "modern medical miracles"  As they can easily be explained with science.

 

 

The "anonymous help miracles" from complete strangers, as immediate consequence of prayers is something I cannot wrap my head around.   These strangers did receive instructions from "God" to provide help.  Even getting the name of the person to help accurately.  Christians don't usually lie in testimonies.  They believe and fear hell enough not to lie deceive the congregation and from personally witnessing my relatives who had these experiences.

 

 

 

You know of the good Samaritan of the bible, right? Many people are like that including many atheists like myself. We have a lot of empathy, are not shy, and try to help others as much as possible, sometimes even jumping into a flaming building or raging river to save someone. One does not have to receive instructions from God, or believe they will go to heaven to do such things since I believe God, heaven and hell are all obviously man-made fantasies. Of course most people that believe in God's miracles are not lairs, they simply are either not too bright, or don't understand that much of humanity has empathy towards others and will help both humans and animals from peril if they can, without external rewards.

[Crove]

8 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

You know of the good semeritan of the bible, right? Many people are like that including many atheists like myself. We have a lot of empathy, are not shy, and try to help others as much as possible, sometimes even jumping into a flaming building or raging river to save someone. One does not have to receive instructions from God, or believe they will go to heaven to do such things since I believe God, heaven and hell are all obviously man-made fantasies. Of course most people that believe in God's miracles are not lairs, they simply are either not too bright, or don't understand that much of humanity has empathy towards others and will help both humans and animals from peril if they can, without external rewards.

 

In many miracles I've heard and one from a relative, the anonymous help came from far away.  Some of the help even came from another country. 

 

They didn't publish nor wrote their prayer requests nor needs in the internet (some of the testimonies I've heard happened before the internet age).

 

The anyonymous help also claimed that God told them the name of the people they must help.

 

I really can't wrap my head around it.

[pantheory]

14 hours ago, Crove said:

 

In many miracles I've heard and one from a relative, the anonymous help came from far away.  Some of the help even came from another country. 

 

They didn't publish nor wrote their prayer requests nor needs in the internet (some of the testimonies I've heard happened before the internet age).

 

The anyonymous help also claimed that God told them the name of the people they must help.

 

I really can't wrap my head around it.

 

That's all fine. Believe whatever seems real to you. But for me, I would bet my life against a six pack that it's all BS. Have a great new year and hope our conversations continue.

[Crove]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

That's all fine. Believe whatever seems real to you. But for me I would bet my life against a six pack that it's all BS. Have a great new year and hope our conversations continue.

 

I've been trying to debunk these present-day miracles.

 

Most medical miracles can be explained with science.

 

Material prosperity can also be explained with simple economics (money and wealth does not materialize out of thin air)

 

Apparitions seem interesting BUT they really don't affect people's lives in a big way.

 

But these "anonymous helpers at a distance as total strangers"  continues to baffle me.  In many years of trying to debunk these, I haven't found an answer yet.  Ironically, the last place to look would be the occult, something I have avoided as a former Christians but now I'm an Ex-Christian, nothing's holding me back anymore.

 

 

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

2 hours ago, Crove said:

 

I've been trying to debunk these present-day miracles.

 

Most medical miracles can be explained with science.

 

Material prosperity can also be explained with simple economics (money and wealth does not materialize out of thin air)

 

Apparitions seem interesting BUT they really don't affect people's lives in a big way.

 

But these "anonymous helpers at a distance as total strangers"  continues to baffle me.  In many years of trying to debunk these, I haven't found an answer yet.  Ironically, the last place to look would be the occult, something I have avoided as a former Christians but now I'm an Ex-Christian, nothing's holding me back anymore.

 

 

 

 

 Christians DO lie in their testimonies. All the time. I have seen it myself. Also many embellish unconsciously. The level of embelishment can be awesome. I mean there are christian sects who call them holy deception. 

      Also, what does GOD told them mean? Ask specific questions. A feeling? Many have those. A hunch? They heard from someone else? 

     What about the countless stories of unanswrred prayers of dying children, of pedophile victims? I mean if you base your belief on answered prayers, the number of unanswered ones is far far greater? Plus think about this. There are billions of people praying literally every day for miracles. Something happens and people say well it was God when it could have just been a highly improbable event. If billions of people pray for a lottery win I guarantee you that some WILL have them answered. There is a recent book on miracles by John Loftus. A series of essays. You could investigate it.

         Maybe there are true answered prayers. I will not adopt a certainty. But really think about this. Why is there never an answered prayer about a verifiable ressurection? Soneone dead for two years, a priest comes and revives him. Or healing amputees. Or, get this, ACTUALLY moving a mountain. It s always or most of the time a story about some relative that says he received a new job after being laid off or some money from France etc. 

       I meann I often have the instinct to say call me when you move mount Everest into the sea by saying the Lords Prayer. Second hand hearsay about some improbable but minor things just does not cut it for me. Jesus raised the dead, multiplied food, controlled the weather, created eyeballs from spit and mud and instantly healed thousands of people. That is the bar for miracles that HE HIMSELF set.

[Crove]

1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said:

 Christians DO lie in their testimonies. All the time. I have seen it myself. Also many embellish unconsciously. The level of embelishment can be awesome. I mean there are christian sects who call them holy deception. 

      Also, what does GOD told them mean? Ask specific questions. A feeling? Many have those. A hunch? They heard from someone else? 

     What about the countless stories of unanswrred prayers of dying children, of pedophile victims? I mean if you base your belief on answered prayers, the number of unanswered ones is far far greater? Plus think about this. There are billions of people praying literally every day for miracles. Something happens and people say well it was God when it could have just been a highly improbable event. If billions of people pray for a lottery win I guarantee you that some WILL have them answered. There is a recent book on miracles by John Loftus. A series of essays. You could investigate it.

         Maybe there are true answered prayers. I will not adopt a certainty. But really think about this. Why is there never an answered prayer about a verifiable ressurection? Soneone dead for two years, a priest comes and revives him. Or healing amputees. Or, get this, ACTUALLY moving a mountain. It s always or most of the time a story about some relative that says he received a new job after being laid off or some money from France etc. 

       I meann I often have the instinct to say call me when you move mount Everest into the sea by saying the Lords Prayer. Second hand hearsay about some improbable but minor things just does not cut it for me. Jesus raised the dead, multiplied food, controlled the weather, created eyeballs from spit and mud and instantly healed thousands of people. That is the bar for miracles that HE HIMSELF set.

 

Good answer, thanks!

 

When I was still a Christian, it did come to my attention that the vast majority of miracle testimonies are about money / opportunity and medical miracles.

 

Nothing quite remarkable I would say.  As even non-believers can also have financial or medical "miracles" and quite likely many of them have logical explanations to it.

 

But God giving people names to help.  Leaves me in pieces.

 

Actually, if Christians believe in false truths and those who spread false truths gets these miracles, then their "supernatural provisions" are from malevolent sources.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I hatched a plan to create a "miracle" for a lady I knew years ago.  I kept myself completely behind the scenes; but needed assistance from one of this lady's closer friends.  When made aware of the plan, and her part in it, said friend exclaimed, "But you don't believe in god!"  To which I responded, "Sometimes in order to create a miracle for someone in need, one has to play god."  That was over 5 years ago; and the lady still talks about the little "miracle" she experienced.

 

Years before that, when I was still a christian, I experienced a "miracle" myself.  An evangelist came to our church, called me out of the crowd (1,500+ people), gave specific details about my life and current circumstances, and then gave a prophecy over me.  It really shook me to the core when I found out later that a guy from my men's ministry group had supplied both a description of me and the relevant information about my circumstances to this supposed "prophet" and evangelist. 

 

I'm not saying all the miracles your relatives and others have experienced were thus meticulously planned out; but, knowing what I knew about my own "miracle," I kept the one I performed completely anonymous.

[florduh]

6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Christians DO lie in their testimonies. All the time. I have seen it myself. Also many embellish unconsciously. The level of embelishment can be awesome.

Just fixin' to say that myself. Take nothing at face value.

[Wertbag]

11 hours ago, Crove said:

But these "anonymous helpers at a distance as total strangers"  continues to baffle me.

In most of these cases the person has told their friends, family, church, priest and posted their financial troubles on Facebook.  Then when the money turns up they are baffled by the random chance of it and attribute it to God.  In every case it was been non-miraculous.

And as mentioned don't think "Christians don't usually lie in testimonies." as they most certainly do.  Some are just misremembering, others believe in the idea of a little white lie is acceptable when the result is saving someone's soul from hell.  Others are just scammers after your money.

 

Another way to look at it, if you sent money to a random address, what is the chance of that receiver being overjoyed and probably having a need of money?  Who doesn't need money and wouldn't be shocked from a surprise amount turning up?  Wouldn't that same effect occur regardless of what church you go to or religion you belong to?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If you look for miracles, you'll always find them... even if they're not actually there.

[Crove]

On 12/28/2020 at 2:53 AM, Wertbag said:

In most of these cases the person has told their friends, family, church, priest and posted their financial troubles on Facebook.  Then when the money turns up they are baffled by the random chance of it and attribute it to God.  In every case it was been non-miraculous.

And as mentioned don't think "Christians don't usually lie in testimonies." as they most certainly do.  Some are just misremembering, others believe in the idea of a little white lie is acceptable when the result is saving someone's soul from hell.  Others are just scammers after your money.

 

Another way to look at it, if you sent money to a random address, what is the chance of that receiver being overjoyed and probably having a need of money?  Who doesn't need money and wouldn't be shocked from a surprise amount turning up?  Wouldn't that same effect occur regardless of what church you go to or religion you belong to?

 

 

Many of the testimonies I heard were before the internet age.  Especially from the senior pastors, many of their "random help" testimonies happened during the 1980's and earlier.

[Wertbag]

9 hours ago, Crove said:

Many of the testimonies I heard were before the internet age.  Especially from the senior pastors, many of their "random help" testimonies happened during the 1980's and earlier.

Communication was still possible prior to Facebook.  The information could easily be sourced at church social gatherings, by word of mouth, by friends and relatives talking to people behind their back, at any club/group/sport or bbq.  All it then takes is someone to act on the readily available information and hey presto, a financially struggling person gets anonymous help.  Of course that is if it isn't embellished, straight out lies or at least mis-remembered.  Humans helping humans rates quite low on the miracle-o-meter.

[nontheistpilgrim]

Here's a personal experience from 1961.

My partner and I were 'living by faith' at Bible College, dependent on friends and churches and holiday jobs for financial support - that was well known, so people knew we had little money.

One day a number of postal orders arrived from a friend - an odd amount, call it nine pounds, seven shillings and a penny (the penny was important to us to show the miraculous). The accompanying letter explained that our friend had emptied her purse and bought postal orders for the exact amount she found.

We were so delighted to have the help.

We then added up the amount of cash that we had recently spent in order to visit a friend who was in a TB satatorium (including train and bus fares and something to eat). We found it came to exactly nine pounds, seven shillings and a penny. A miracle.

No, I now refute this. Whilst the experience was greatly encouraging and we were tremendously grateful to our friend for her kindness, there must be another explanation. Perhaps we stopped adding up the costs when we reached the magic figure? Perhaps our arithmetic was in error? It doesn't matter; I now know there is no god controlling things, or looking upon us in favour. Frankly, it doesn't worry me. But I do like to tell the story!

[Moonobserver]

On 12/26/2020 at 5:45 PM, Crove said:

Although I am no longer a Christian, after being a Christian for 20 years, I really can't shake the reality or facts about miracles many Christians experience and share through testimonies. 

 

Some of them are relatives and seeing a profound change in their prosperity and generally, their lives literally overnight, they're definitely not lying about it.

 

My specific questions are miracles like someone praying for a lucrative opportunity or financial support and the very next day, they get an anonymous donor or anonymous tip, granting exactly their prayers.

 

How did that happen?  Telepathy? The devil? Magic? A comprehensive "Occult infrastructure" accessible via certain (deceived) mindset or "faith"?  When many more people are experiencing the same thing, it's beyond uncanny but something is at work beyond human perception.  I have doubts that Christians are sourcing their supernatural provisions from a benevolent supreme being but rather a malevolent one as mainly their actions serve to support those in power who oppresses the weak.

 

That is simply my opinion....  Not necessarily supported by comprehensive studies on the matter of supernatural, magic, etc.

 

I believe it is real, there is no changing that but where does it come from?  Thanks!

 

 

I once saw a bumper sticker which said (to the extent that I remember the wording), "The Universe acts in conformity with our perception of reality." Thus when we move the energy of the Universe, it responds in a way which confirms our personal beliefs. That seems to me to be what the quote means.

[florduh]

26 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

I once saw a bumper sticker which said (to the extent that I remember the wording), "The Universe acts in conformity with our perception of reality." Thus when we move the energy of the Universe, it responds in a way which confirms our personal beliefs. That seems to me to be what the quote means.

I think what actually happens is our perception and memory support our confirmation bias.

[LostinParis]

When I was a christian I experienced several “miracles” which I now in hindsight regard as coincidence, confirmation bias or “counting the hits and ignoring the misses”.

 

Sometimes “I don’t know” is the best (though unsatisfying) answer.
 

Also, I lied and exaggerated as a christian in order to “bring people to god”, which is how I justified this to myself.

[nontheistpilgrim]

13 minutes ago, LostinParis said:

When I was a christian I experienced several “miracles” which I now in hindsight regard as coincidence, confirmation bias or “counting the hits and ignoring the misses”.

 

Sometimes “I don’t know” is the best (though unsatisfying) answer. ......

 

I agree - except I do not find it unsatisfying to say 'I don't know'. There are lots of things of which I am totally ignorant and which I happily accept. Someone, some day, will find answers and reasons for things today thought by some to be supernatural. (You only have to read the Bible to see how true that is!)

[Wertbag]

Lightning is a sign of gods in pain or anger, the seasons are the constant battle between gods for control of the weather, pregnancy is the blending of two souls blessed by God, disease is God's wrath, a person unable to have children is cursed by God... When you make so many claims about perfectly natural phenomenon which are then shown to be incorrect, it really makes it hard to trust in yet another claim by the same group. "I know we were wrong the last hundred times, but this time it really is God!" 

[Crove]

14 hours ago, Moonobserver said:

I once saw a bumper sticker which said (to the extent that I remember the wording), "The Universe acts in conformity with our perception of reality." Thus when we move the energy of the Universe, it responds in a way which confirms our personal beliefs. That seems to me to be what the quote means.

 

Sounds like a good thing if it is true.

 

I only got out of Christianity when I started finding so many errors in the Bible.  But my belief in miracles (alternately, paranormal or supernatural) remained.  Because my leaving Christianity behind didn't change my experiences with these.