Myrkhoos 290 Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Crove said: Sounds like a good thing if it is true. I only got out of Christianity when I started finding so many errors in the Bible. But my belief in miracles (alternately, paranormal or supernatural) remained. Because my leaving Christianity behind didn't change my experiences with these. You might have even seen Jesus in a vision. You do not have to say -well, now, I don t believe in Jesus, so that did not happen. You can simply say, well, I think something else caused it that the Bible God. Like with miracles. The experience stay, your interpretaion could change. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sdelsolray 2,218 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 On 12/26/2020 at 10:58 PM, Crove said: I've been trying to debunk these present-day miracles. ... I suggest a slightly different starting point. How about this: How do I analyze these present-day claims of miracles? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Super Moderator florduh 5,752 Posted January 1 Super Moderator Report Share Posted January 1 7 minutes ago, sdelsolray said: I suggest a slightly different starting point. How about this: How do I analyze these present-day claims of miracles? Indeed. And how do I analyze claims of alien abduction, levitating yogis, bigfoot and Reverend Ike's Magic Prayer Cloth? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sdelsolray 2,218 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 6 minutes ago, florduh said: Indeed. And how do I analyze claims of alien abduction, levitating yogis, bigfoot and Reverend Ike's Magic Prayer Cloth? Ask questions. Request evidence. Build a detailed chronology of the time before, during and after claimed event. Determine which natural laws would be suspended/violated if the miracle conclusion was assumed. Consider alternative explanations for the data. Use a lie detector test on the claimant. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Super Moderator florduh 5,752 Posted January 1 Super Moderator Report Share Posted January 1 23 minutes ago, sdelsolray said: Ask questions. Request evidence. Build a detailed chronology of the time before, during and after claimed event. Determine which natural laws would be suspended/violated if the miracle conclusion was assumed. Consider alternative explanations for the data. Use a lie detector test on the claimant. Whoa! Might that also apply to so-called "Christian Miracles?" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sdelsolray 2,218 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 "Christian Miracles" are special, at least according to some Christians. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crove 5 Posted January 1 Author Report Share Posted January 1 2 hours ago, florduh said: Indeed. And how do I analyze claims of alien abduction, levitating yogis, bigfoot and Reverend Ike's Magic Prayer Cloth? Let's leave those stuff out of the discussion, can potentially ruin the thread Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crove 5 Posted January 1 Author Report Share Posted January 1 1 hour ago, sdelsolray said: "Christian Miracles" are special, at least according to some Christians. I never personally experienced any of those financial or relationship or medical miracles I hear in the vast majority of Christian testimonies. So naturally, I'm a skeptic, except in one case I oversaw personally, a relative went from poor to rich in just one year. Incredible life time opportunity from a complete stranger. Their wealth is real, not bogus, not scammers, working real jobs and real careers now. They prayed for such miracle for a very long time and one day it just happened. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sdelsolray 2,218 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 1 hour ago, Crove said: I never personally experienced any of those financial or relationship or medical miracles I hear in the vast majority of Christian testimonies. So naturally, I'm a skeptic, except in one case I oversaw personally, a relative went from poor to rich in just one year. Incredible life time opportunity from a complete stranger. Their wealth is real, not bogus, not scammers, working real jobs and real careers now. They prayed for such miracle for a very long time and one day it just happened. If becoming rich within a year can be a miracle, can becoming poor within a year also be a miracle? What natural laws would be violated or suspended when someone goes from poor to rich in a year? 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Myrkhoos 290 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 7 hours ago, Crove said: I never personally experienced any of those financial or relationship or medical miracles I hear in the vast majority of Christian testimonies. So naturally, I'm a skeptic, except in one case I oversaw personally, a relative went from poor to rich in just one year. Incredible life time opportunity from a complete stranger. Their wealth is real, not bogus, not scammers, working real jobs and real careers now. They prayed for such miracle for a very long time and one day it just happened. Ok, let us analyse this. Can we agree that wealth, at least a sufficient amount of wealth is a desire that most Americans, if not the world share? Getting rich seems to be a spiritual quest in today s economic/cultural systems, I could say. Of them, billions are religious. So, from that, millions, billions of people, maybe, pray for wealth. In very rare cases this happens. Like in Hollywood. Thousands of would be actors want to become famous actors. Of them , sometimes by a mere struck of initial luck - John Krasinski from the Office was about to give up acting when he got hired, get the opportunity. But you do not see the thousand that fail. It is a well known mental bias, seeing extreme events outside their large numbers context. Like in the lottery example. Millions play, a couple win. I am NOT saying, well, it is all random and nothing can prove a divine intervention. BUT, HOW do you prove that? Like people say, what are chances that life developped on Earth? So small, right? Actually, NOT. Because the universe is, at least, very large, if not infinite. In such a big complex place where so many reactions take place, the apparition of a sort of thing called life is not strange. Because the number of tries is so large. Like, what is the chance that you win a lottery ticket? If you can play only ticket, very small. If you can play a million tickets? There are billions of people on the planet. The chance that something extradinary happening, is actually quite big. There are, every night, billions of dreams with many elements. If someone has a dream of a relative dyeing, and the relative dies, it seems like a big deal for him, but it is not taking into consideration the amount of dreams there are. And, by the way, how come dreams are almost always something like, your lreative dies soon, you will have a baby, and almost never something like, on the 15th of august 2025, the airplane nr xy2005 will crash in the Cayman island? If you DO want a medical event caused by prayer to be actually taken extrenely seriously, take 100.000 people to pray for the regrowth of an amputated limb. If even one gets it, that would really make me wonder and want to look into it with a lot of attention. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Myrkhoos 290 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 By the way, there are people,I think I mentioned this, that regard all life, all events, as acts of God, so there is no diference between an impredictable rare events, and a common, predictable one. Your psychological experience of awe/amazement is just that, in their opinion, a psychological reaction, like a young heteresoxual with a high libido feeling aroused when he touches a beautiful woman. The underlying truth , behind all these variations, is that all are acts of this entity call God, so, for them, every event is a proof and intervention of God. It is sometimes called occasionalism, I think. That philosophy merits a discussion on its own. But I meant was, is that, for some. miracle/non miracle is a secondary if not nonsensical argument about the existence/intervention of God. The point I am in now, is basically, and I need to stress this , when something happens, it is not so easy to ascribe it a cause. I am open to debate, as I would really like people to say what they think about this. Like, my experience with medicine has taugh me that diagnostics is a tricky bussiness, more in some cases than others. So, my , so to speak, refutation, of miracle claims is usually - how have you eliminated other explanations and what evidence do you have for your explanation? I do not want to say, it is stupid to say God did it. Ok, maybe God did it. What God, how, why do you believe that, are those reasons communicable, if I present you with an alternative theory that seems more probable to me at the moment, what do you think, etc? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Myrkhoos 290 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 Third post in a row. First for me. But posting here just made me realise my incomplete and unchecked assumptions about knowled. Will dig further into that. Thank you poster and all for the opportunity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Super Moderator florduh 5,752 Posted January 1 Super Moderator Report Share Posted January 1 18 hours ago, Crove said: Let's leave those stuff out of the discussion, can potentially ruin the thread Sorry if you don't see it but those topics are exactly on point. And that's the point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crove 5 Posted January 3 Author Report Share Posted January 3 On 1/2/2021 at 6:55 AM, florduh said: Sorry if you don't see it but those topics are exactly on point. And that's the point. No problem. I suppose threads like these are not expected to go on for long without the biases tilting towards the side they are all made up stories or someone not telling everything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crove 5 Posted January 3 Author Report Share Posted January 3 I think I should also do a 1 on 1 discussion with Christians about their miracles. Talk to them in their "language" so they can be more honest. Maybe they'll tell everything in more private situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mwc 2,237 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 On 12/31/2020 at 6:47 PM, florduh said: Indeed. And how do I analyze claims of alien abduction, levitating yogis, bigfoot and Reverend Ike's Magic Prayer Cloth? Oh, here it comes. Shitting all over Reverend Ike. That prayer cloth works. That cloth has gotten everything it has ever prayed for. Explain that smartass. mwc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moderator Joshpantera 3,006 Posted January 13 Moderator Report Share Posted January 13 On 12/26/2020 at 7:45 PM, Crove said: My specific questions are miracles like someone praying for a lucrative opportunity or financial support and the very next day, they get an anonymous donor or anonymous tip, granting exactly their prayers. How did that happen? Telepathy? The devil? Magic? A comprehensive "Occult infrastructure" accessible via certain (deceived) mindset or "faith"? https://www.amazon.com/Synchronicity-Coincidence-Choice-Unlocking-Your/dp/1601631839 "The experience of meaningful coincidences is universal. They are reported by people of every culture, every belief system, and every time period. Synchronicity examines the evidence for the human influence on the meaningfulness of events, and the way the modern computational model of the mind predicts how we create meaning." Seriously, if you really want to dive into this issue, read the book I've linked above. It may change the way that you look at everything. And it greatly de-mystify's a lot of the questions you're considering. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Super Moderator florduh 5,752 Posted January 13 Super Moderator Report Share Posted January 13 6 hours ago, mwc said: Oh, here it comes. Shitting all over Reverend Ike. That prayer cloth works. That cloth has gotten everything it has ever prayed for. Explain that smartass. mwc I actually have his prayer cloth somewhere...it's somewhere...I'll find it some day........ I thought it would be a nice collectible. Mine was bright red and a couple of inches on a side. I wonder how many versions were made and distributed over the years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alreadyGone 160 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 'ol Reverend Ike was the utmost, the master. "You can't lose with the stuff I use!" Give the man credit for having assembled an incredible marketing team. But that was then, this is now. The good reverend has gone on to his reward. And so we have to move on. Miracle Spring Water anyone? https://peterpopoff.org/miraclewater/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Super Moderator florduh 5,752 Posted January 13 Super Moderator Report Share Posted January 13 Oh yeah, Peter Popoff. Busted (like Bakker, Swaggart, etc.) but back in business with the same old scam! Amazing!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6BoV0AIPl4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alreadyGone 160 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 You folks are a bad influence. I had long forgotten Rev. Ike. Fortunately youtube remembers: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=reverend+ike And look, his legacy lives: https://store.revike.com/yourprosperityguide.aspx And at these low low prices for his collected wisdom, how can you lose? https://store.revike.com/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Super Moderator florduh 5,752 Posted January 13 Super Moderator Report Share Posted January 13 31 minutes ago, alreadyGone said: And at these low low prices for his collected wisdom, how can you lose? You can't lose with the stuff he use! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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