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Goodbye Jesus

The scale of Christian wars


Wertbag

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I followed an ever worsening trail, starting at the St Bart massacre (1572 where up to 30,000 protestants were murdered by Catholics) which lead to the French War of Religion (1562 to 1598, 36 years, "It is estimated that three million people perished in this period from violence, famine, or disease in what is considered the second deadliest religious war in European history (surpassed only by the Thirty Years' War, which took eight million lives)".  From there I read up on the 30 year war (1618 to 1648, considered the second greatest percentage of lives lost only passed by WW2.  In some areas of Germany as much as 60% of the population died).

It all seems to stem from the Catholics declaring protestants as heretics, and killing heretics is not only encouraged by church and state, but also taught in church as a righteous endeavor.

 

I think a lot of time Christians hear about the horrors of the church wars and just hand wave it away as a fringe group, or not real Christians, but when you can see the share size of the conflicts and millions of lives lost, this wasn't fringe but the mainstream push of the church.  Of course I could mention the inquisition (with its 600 year history), the crusades (depending on which definition used it can either be half a dozen crusades in the holy land or can include the ~30 wars sponsored by the church), or the wars in England.  

I've heard Christians say the crusades were fighting against the aggression of the Muslims, which was true in some cases, but there were at least 8 European wars by papal armies against Christian nations.  They just happened to believe incorrectly, so had to be killed on mass.

 

Having read a lot of history I still continue to find more horror every time I delve into the subject.  Brutal kings, sadistic inquisitors, evil popes and biblical justification for all of it.  Can you imagine how many lives would have been saved if Christianity hadn't existed?

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Religion, especially theistic religion (God Says..., God Wants...) motivates people like few other ideas can.  If Christianity hadn’t existed, humans would unfortunately have invented some other version.  Human nature abhors a religious vacuum, so Islam sprang up in areas where Christianity hadn’t gained a firm foothold.  The good news is that Christianity is in decline, probably terminal, and hopefully it will be joined by Islam in heading for the exit.  The bad news is that humans haven’t lost their tendency to invent murderous ideologies... We invented gods, not the other way around, and if 2020 is any indication, humans aren’t getting any smarter as they get less religious.  

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14 hours ago, TABA said:

 

If Christianity hadn’t existed, humans would unfortunately have invented some other version.   We invented gods, not the other way around

 

 

  Ditto. 

 

Studying the middle ages in Europe is like studying Hitler.   Depressing!   As a kid I didn't understand why my parents were so against Catholics, but later studying the history of Christianity,  I began to understand why.  They basically ignored the teachings attributed to Jesus, and followed the genocidal thinking of the old testament.  It looks like they are still fighting corruption in the Vatican.  Hopefully they have curbed the child sexual abuse that went on for centuries.

 

 

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Certainly a lot of the violence was Catholic's killing other Christians but we do see protestant areas committing massacres in turn. There was no good side, it was bad verse worse. The history of violence goes back to ancient days, with records of Christian violence pretty much as old as the religion. 

 

The number of popes who were blood thirsty, corrupt and decadent is quite staggering. It seems harder to find any back in medieval times who didn't abuse the position for personal pleasure and to inflict suffering across the world. One quote:

"Pope Gregory XIII sent the leader of the massacres a Golden Rose, and said that the massacres "gave him more pleasure than fifty Battles of Lepanto, and he commissioned Vasari to paint frescoes of it in the Vatican."

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As the saying goes, "absolute power, absolutely corrupts."  That is why I have fought to keep absolute separation of church and state.

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I kind of disagree in the sense that is a specific Christian problem.  There are very few if any large societies without a history of genicidal wars and oppressive actions, regardless of worldview. Vikings were bloodthirsty before and after Christianity started to be a part of the religious landscapeWar is also a staple in the animal kingdom, right down to viruses and bacteria, as much as cooperation is. War and violent conflict just seems to be a constant of life. I don t know if it is something we can eliminate. Maybe. We could try to minimize it of course. 

        Of course I also doubt some of the historical figures but things were nasty. Don t forget that, in some estimates, half of the slaves in 14th 15th century Spain were Eastern Orthodox Christians captured by raiders. This stopped, go figure, because the Ottoman empire better protected its Christian citizens against raids :). Catholic Orthodox conflicts also go way back. I mean Romanian Orthodox often preferred the Muslim Turks over the Catholics kingdoms. Even with the blood tribute of children to become Janissaries.

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5 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I kind of disagree in the sense that is a specific Christian problem.  

I agree that it seems to be human nature rather than Christian specific but I think it's more stark because of the claims of Christian benevolence (love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek, do unto others etc). Its clear the teachings have not stopped violence and modern Christians read the same bible. It really shows people can be lead in large numbers to deplorable acts and it would appear the calming influence has been freedom, education and modern secular society. 

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2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

I agree that it seems to be human nature rather than Christian specific but I think it's more stark because of the claims of Christian benevolence (love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek, do unto others etc). Its clear the teachings have not stopped violence and modern Christians read the same bible. It really shows people can be lead in large numbers to deplorable acts and it would appear the calming influence has been freedom, education and modern secular society. 

I think it is stark also because of our own current understanding of love. Like God loved people so he made Jesus accept torture and death. Kind of an odd notion of love in my opinion. :)) 

      The reason for interreligious wars was probably officially, a very loving one like saving people from Hell, the punishment of heresy. It is better to torture someone and make him confess his sins and beg forgivness  than let him die in Hell, right? You would be surprised how loving your enemies is easily translated into war and torture :D. You can do a lot of gruesome acts in the name of "perfect " love. That is why God sends sinners in Hell, because of his utmost love and respect for their dignity as free rational creatures.

      

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/31/2020 at 5:33 AM, Wertbag said:

...

I think a lot of time Christians hear about the horrors of the church wars and just hand wave it away as a fringe group, or not real Christians, but when you can see the share size of the conflicts and millions of lives lost, this wasn't fringe but the mainstream push of the church.  ...

 

Quoted for truth.

 

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