will mankind ever evolve away from religion?

[alreadyGone]

If it isn't obvious, I personally have a dark and dim view of humankind.

 

I'm the sort who sees great beauty and even majesty in the entire spectrum of things man has achieved to drag ourselves out of the primordial ooze to the present time.

Better ways to produce food and improve health-care, mechanized travel, powered flight, and making machines which can work for us to provide what we all need to live.

 

At the same time, I see....  everything else. Some of you are just ugly creatures, by nature.

(that isn't addressed to anyone here you understand...)

 

I've always believed in the validity of evolution and genetic selection. As a Christian I saw no conflict with the basis of Darwin's observations and studies, to the extent of my own understanding that is.

 

As belief in a God of creation fell away, I had to accept the possibility that perhaps we did evolve into the modern man from some lower life form. I don't cling to this belief, but I accept the possibility.

 

Many of the reasons over time that mankind sought to have a God/king/ruler/daddy are part of old cultures and primitive thinking arising from ignorance. Some of those old cultures endure today, some are long gone.

 

And that suggests the question, will we ever lose the need to believe in magical invisible friends?

Will man ever evolve into a species able to understand it's own nature and temporal existence such that notions of a "God" are left behind?

 

So again, I have an overwhelmingly negative view of humankind, in spite of all evidence to the contrary (everything positive and productive that we have achieved at this point in time).

 

What do you think?   100 years from now?   500 years?  1000 years?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

It's hard to say. @Robert_Tulip and I have debated this around for years. I look at the decline of religious affiliation and also the rise in atheism. Things are in the process of change from an objective look at the statistics. Going away from organized religion and with a growing number of atheist's in that mix away from organized religion. The religious "none's" are the statistics in question. 

 

I see that as evolving away from religion, at least in the short term. Further out, I couldn't know. Robert has argued that religion isn't going away. And he may well be correct. It's dwindled now, but the long term is still uncertain.

 

My personal opinion is that people are in the process of learning to live without believing that religion is necessary to save them. What other take away do the "none's" represent? They don't care about religious affiliation, whether or not they still believe in god. Beliefs are changing. 

 

I don't think it's far fetched to assume that atheism will continue to rise. Because after leaving religion, coming to terms with the uncertainty of life and death isn't very far behind in a lot of cases. 

 

Talking about long periods of time, I do assume the evolution in motion now will have changed things in the future dramatically. But then again, this depends on humanity and technology NOT being wiped out down to small tribal settlements again, and everything starting over again. In that case, the case of a cataclysm that dam near wipes out humans, myths and religion would very likely reset and start up all over again on it's own. For the same reasons that myth and religion started up in the distance past among tribal peoples. 

 

Future projections are extremely conditional and no one can foresee future circumstances. The ultimate answer, as far as I can tell, is that it could go either way. 

[Robert_Tulip]

2 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

will we ever lose the need to believe in magical invisible friends?

Will man ever evolve into a species able to understand it's own nature and temporal existence such that notions of a "God" are left behind?

Thanks Josh for drawing my attention to this thread.  As we have discussed, the four function of myth proposed by Joseph Campbell – awe, reason, ritual and education – are enduring factors in human existence.  My view is that these functions make religion necessary for healthy societies, but religion will evolve to become compatible with the scientific world view, and will remain an important enduring feature of social organisation as a way to convey our highest values. 

 

That means the idea of God will become more like Santa Claus, a nice story for children which everyone with a mature view comes to understand as an invention rather than an entity.  But such an invention remains socially useful. 

 

For example, seeing the invocations of God in the public rituals of the presidential inauguration, we can interpret God as meaning ‘what we agree is most important’, ‘ultimate truth’, ‘the real conditions of durable human flourishing’, and other similar allegorical ideas that do not require an intentional personal entity to exist.

 

So to answer the questions, humanity is steadily losing the need to believe in magical invisible friends as education levels rise.  That does not mean we will leave behind notions of God; rather, our popular understanding of the meaning of God will evolve to recognise the primacy of scientific knowledge in our ethical frameworks.

[alreadyGone]

You guys are telling me very graciously that I've a lot to catch up on here..

Got it. 

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

 

In my mind, people/humans truly do want a daddy.

This is just my pet theory mind you. I've no education in psychology nor philosophy (can't even spell either word without spellcheck).

But it explains much, and I've seen it too much to believe otherwise.

And... it gets us into perilous situations.. colliding sometimes with truth.

 

The myth or history of Moses coming down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments says the same thing. No one was satisfied and they demanded someone right there among them to tell them what to do. A king.

 

When have we seen this recently?   When the COVID19 virus became known.

[[[ With no reference to or desire to discuss the political reality]]],

most humans in the US all but demanded that the sitting President know what the hell to do about it.

 

No one had confused him (the President) with an epidemiologist, a studied virologist, nor even a qualified MD.

Prior to the appearance of the virus, no one had any expectation that he knew a damn thing about any virus. As so many of them could not have even spelled 'v-i-r-u-s' a month prior, they were ready immediately to demand that the king save them. Now.

 

Among them were the Christians, who themselves were already sure that the COVID19 virus is God's will, so it just is.

That never prevented so very many of them to be among the crowds demanding that the king here on earth had an answer to pull out of his ass.

 

What the people demanded angrily last year was that he and those around him (and for whose choices and decisions they also held him responsible) just magically know the answers. 

Answers to a question that a week prior not a goddamn one of them even knew to ask.

 

Magically... remind you of anything?

 

To my mind, its just another manifestation of 'group-think'.

Politics totally aside (and not in any way pertinent here...  )

 

And with regard to my original question, eh....   I think we'll manage to H-bomb ourselves into hell much sooner than we'll get away from looking for a God.

That's just my take on it.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

...

Future projections are extremely conditional and no one can foresee future circumstances. The ultimate answer, as far as I can tell, is that it could go either way. 

 

'Predictions are tough... especially about the future'.    - Yogi Berra

[◊ Krowb ◊]

Being an overly optimistic person, I am content to say that in time we, as a species, will move away from religion as currently understood with a top-down deity that has strange obsessions with how people act and dress that (as far as we can tell) have no bearing on the well-being of either the individual or society.  As @Joshpantera mentioned, this is not a given as we could easily destroy ourselves, the planet, or regress into another dark age, but the unmistakable trend throughout our time as a species has been one of increasing acceptance of what constitutes "us" versus them and religion's waning influence in the world.

 

7 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

And that suggests the question, will we ever lose the need to believe in magical invisible friends?

Will man ever evolve into a species able to understand it's own nature and temporal existence such that notions of a "God" are left behind?

 

We already have, you and the others one this forum have done it and we are all part of the same species.  With education, more will make the leap.  People may still have superstitions and those will change over time as culture changes, but we are moving away from religion taking center stage.  It may not feel that way given many of us live in the Bible Belt, but the fact the various denominations no longer kill each other, but even actively acknowledge they are fellow "saved" is sign that religion as historically understood is changing.  Other than some Islamic Imams, I am not aware of any Christian or Judaic religious leaders in the Western world that call for the death of heretics and unbelievers.  This was the norm across much of the world for large portions of our written history.  Coupled with the growth of the non-doms who are more motivated by feel good life coaching than doctrine, and the very quick secularization of Europe, we appear to be moving in the direction of less religion, less god, and more inclusivity.

 

We should all do our part to lead by example.  We are very fickle and easily swayed species.

 

As an aside, I'd like to point out that just because a country has the official policy of being "atheist" does not mean they don't have some weird and extremely ingrained superstitions.  the moniker atheist =/= rational, logical, or even sane.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I believe education and critical thinking are essential for our moral evolution, but the powers that be, want to stay in power, and discourage that kind of education.  To keep the evolution evolving, we need to encourage higher education, including the humanities.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

There's another aspect of culture that feeds continuing entrenched religion as a members-only club that comes with benefits for insiders. It fosters membership even if belief is secondary or non-existent. As long as there is an appearance of belief, akin to making an obligatory burning of incense to Caesar, business can go on and flourish. Places where the local culture has made belief paramount (Salt Lake City, or Bible Belt, especially for politicians), appearing to be in the club is a litmus test for success. But concepts like feed the hungry, welcome the foreigner, sell your possessions and give to the poor... nah. We're the King's Kids and expect to be skinny, rich, and good looking popular people. That makes religion harder to toss, and the last four years brought to the public eye an odd mix of both the type I just described along with deeply cult-like believers that think they can just shoot the Antichrist for Jesus. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Although it is coming in the back door to evolving away from religion, I have thought about getting a "bumper" sticker that says, "Healthy democracy is dependent upon educated, critical thinking."

[Joshpantera]

It is a wake up call to consider how easily lost all of our accomplishments and forward evolution could be over certain cataclysm or nature disaster striking. Who would survive best? We have advanced societies mixed in with remnant tribesmen and hunter gatherer types still surviving around the globe. They may be better suited to survive a massive cataclysm than hipsters wearing skinny jeans holding their iphones out for salvation. Or their yuppy parents who know zero about survival. Just pointing out the obvious. 

 

Regardless of any advancement or sophisticated people in society, it could all be stripped away at any time given the right set of circumstances. And then welcome back to world wide woo woo, right? This isn't a far fetched scenario. 

 

It just brings some clarity to the religion issue. If things proceed without a hitch. And if society has an uninterrupted ability to evolve and advance without set back, then we should evolve away from religion more and more. Especially if life gets easier and easier over time. And quality of life continues to improve. It can be sobering to take in all of the contributing factors. This is one that I want to believe. I like the idea of mankind evolving beyond religion. But my opinion is tempered with these worse case scenarios in the mix. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

We (at least I) won't live to see it, but if global warming gets out of hand, the oceans rise, and NY city and other large coastal cities have to move, and we have major climate change patterns, there may be major chaos.  That will be a test for world societies and humans ability to come together to solve problems.  Will we band together and solve problems?  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This is why I have started to make a more concerted effort to find the beauty, serenity, and tenderness of everyday life.   These doomsday, post-apocalyptic dystopian what-ifs produce little more, for me, than the opportunity of wasting this precious moment worrying over a terrifying future that would certainly not heed any warning or instruction I might have given it.  Smell the god damn roses while we still got them to smell, y'all. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I doubt that religion will ever go away completely. Just as racism or homophobia will never be completely gone. I do believe tho that just as racism has decreased since the 50s and 60s and homosexuality is becoming more accepted world wide that as time progresses religion will also dwindle down to the devout.... or maybe "delusional", few. That is of course assuming we continue to grow in knowledge world wide and overcome such obstacles such as middle eastern countries filtering what their people are allowed to see. If the information is never able to reach them. They will continue to believe their religion without question. 

 

If there ever is a major SHTF scenario where humanity gets thrown back in time then, like has already been mentioned, we would probably back slide back into religion as a species. 

 

I truly hope that humanity is on the precipice of mental freedom from organized religion. Ever since I deconverted I've watched and noticed the downward trend of church attendance. Looking back on my years in the faith and my years after just visiting as an outsider. I can see that the church(es) in general are mostly made up of elderly people holding on to old ways. As the baby boomer generation continues to die off. I'm sure we will see more and more churches closing or consolidating with other smaller churches. For now it seems to be the beginning of the fall atleast Christianity. 

 

DB

[ConsiderTheSource]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:17 AM, Fuego said:

But concepts like feed the hungry, welcome the foreigner, sell your possessions and give to the poor... nah

 

This.  Christian faith that ignores these clear dictates, can it really be honest faith?  

 

Of course it can not be faith.  It is everything else you mentioned instead.  Our observations at the Food Bank Warehouse and at the community distribution locations clearly show that the volunteer folk working to feed the hungry and food challenged are, in order of contribution:

 

1.  Empathetic and compassionate individuals.   Overwhelmingly either secular in thought and/or behavior.

2.  Corporations and non profit groups.  Very impressed by the efforts made by corporations.

3.  The Catholic Church and their private schools.

4. "Liberal" churches, Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran, Mennonites, etc....

 

The Evangelical/Baptist/Conservative churches are nearly non existent.  

[alreadyGone]

21 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 

...

 

The Evangelical/Baptist/Conservative churches are nearly non existent.  

 

with only a bare minimum of facetious intent...

 

From my experience I would guess this is because so many Evangelical/Baptist/Conservative churches are so convinced at this point that poverty and human desperation are ordained by God.

 

Few people today have much clue from where essential goods originate.

They've no idea what actually happens out there in the world to cause the production of food, clothing, energy, transportation, or shelter... What other humans do to cause the production of essential goods and commodities.

 

And yet they, and among them especially Christians will yammer on about "values".

 

If you have little clue about the actual cost, in human terms.... a day of labor, risk taken, shoe-leather consumed ...  to make something worthwhile happen in the physical realm, it becomes meaningless to talk of "values".

 

[Moonobserver]

Even if we were to evolve away from religious belief, which I doubt will happen, I don't see that doing us any good. Those more "enlightened" societies of the last century which did away with emperors and patriarchs merely replaced them with Fearless Party Leaders who punished critics of the People's Glorious Revolution just as savagely as any religious heretic was ever punished.

 

I don't necessarily agree with everything that Chris Hedges says, but I do agree with his assertion that we are not advancing morally at all. I remember an X-Files episode in which Mulder makes a comment about "the civilizing influence of technology" which I have always thought worthy of nothing but a scornful laugh. Here's basically how I see it:

 

FANTASY: Hey, look at us! We have computers! Let's use them to start building the starship Enterprise!

 

REALITY: Hey, look at us! We have computers! Let's use them to steal each other's personal information!

 

I'm convinced that, whatever evolution may make us into physically, it's not what's going to save us from ourselves.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I mentioned this on another thread a couple of years ago, but if you're not familiar with it, there is a "theory" of Moral Evolution by a guy named Kohlberg.  Kohlburg??  (not sure of correct spelling)

[mwc]

     We're not on our first religion and we're not on our last.  We're just losing a bit of interest in some of our current set.

 

     To address the OP.  We've been "modern" humans for a couple hundred thousand years now and we clearly have religion.  Why we came to have it is impossible to know but a thousand years is nothing.  Just look back two thousand years to find the dawn of the dominant religion on the planet right now.  The Egyptian religion had about a five thousand year run.  If xianity has a similar span then we're only near the middle of it's arc.  Even if it's actually more near the end something else will take its place.  I can't tell you what that might be, however, just like no one predicted any of the other religions before they actually came along.

 

          mwc