Predestination and Calvinism? Contemporanious ordination?

[alreadyGone]

 

A year or so I met a young man who is a devout Presbyterian.

I had really no experience with the Presbyters before that, and had never given it/them a thought.

 

Some discussion ensued over the course of a few months as he began to proselytize me, it was very interesting to see the degree of blind obedient buy-in to that dogma warp the mind and thinking of an intelligent young mind.

 

At one point he politely told me that I had in fact never been a Christian, as evidenced by the fact that I no longer believe. If I had been predestined to be 'saved', I would be now and forever a Christian.

 

He introduced me to the preaching and writing of J.C. Sproul.

 

Thoughts on Presbyterianism/Calvinism?

Anyone a former PCA member?

 

[webmdave]

I was a Calvinist. One of the five points is Perseverance of the Saints. So, yes, if you are saved, you persevere in the faith. 

 

However, you must be predestined to be saved. You don't and can't choose it. 

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Calvinism

 

It is all hogwash, naturally. But it is Biblically supported (aren't they all?) teaching. 

[LogicalFallacy]

My church (and I when I was a Christian) believes in predestination. 

 

Romans 8:28-30 largely supports the idea: 

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

But there was this weird sub belief that in hindsight was paradoxical. Clearly if God chooses you there is no free will right? Well the idea of free will was also important so the doctrine was that it was God knew what choice you would make and therefore he was able to choose you before the universe was created. But if he knew all that before the universe was created wouldn't he have to have created the universe in such a way that you choosing the path he knew you'd choose would occur thereby invalidating the free will part?

 

It's all very confusing. The best thing to do was to not think too deeply about it and thank God for saving you. Saved from what was another thing you shouldn't think too deeply about. Saved from sin obviously, but trace everything back far enough and once again you get to just God existing and everything coming from that.

[alreadyGone]

25 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

...

But there was this weird sub belief that in hindsight was paradoxical. Clearly if God chooses you there is no free will right? Well the idea of free will was also important so the doctrine was that it was God knew what choice you would make and therefore he was able to choose you before the universe was created. But if he knew all that before the universe was created wouldn't he have to have created the universe in such a way that you choosing the path he knew you'd choose would occur thereby invalidating the free will part?

...

 

He and I touched on this in one discussion... and then he put it down and walked away.

 

Very very interesting to me was his (he told me, the PCA's) belief that God has ordained all that is, to be what it is. And in discussion this included his assertion that the PCA very strictly believes that government is what it is because God has ordained it to be..

 

I did a little casual research and discovered that the American Revolutionary War was in very large part fomented by influential Scottish-American Presbyterians, who wanted the revolution to tamp-down the influence of the Anglican church within the colonies. Among peers to the crown in England the rising tide of war was commonly referred to as "that Presbyterian rebellion".

 

It's a well-documented part of American history, no room for argument there.

So the most prominent early leadership of the PCA in America either didn't believe their own bullshit about God pre-ordinating civil authority on Earth, or they were just blatantly disobedient and rebellious.

 

That earnest young man's mind exploded.

He no longer wanted to discuss PCA religion after that, dismissing me as a reprobate, unwanted by God.

 

The PCA itself admits as much:

https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/09/presbyterian-rebellion/

 

Many other references across the web..

https://www.kendallpres.org/those-blasted-presbyterians-reflections-on-independence-day/

 

 

 

Google's a bitch, ain't it?

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 1/28/2021 at 5:02 AM, alreadyGone said:

 

Google's a bitch, ain't it?

 

Yep.  At least the many perceptions of god is. 

OOops!  I read that wrong.  Thought you said god.

[sdelsolray]

Tiptoe Trough the Tulips

 

 

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

On 1/27/2021 at 9:27 PM, alreadyGone said:

At one point he politely told me that I had in fact never been a Christian, as evidenced by the fact that I no longer believe. If I had been predestined to be 'saved', I would be now and forever a Christian.

It always amazes me people's willingness to rewrite the past to justify a theology. I think of it as "time travel theology" because of the similarity of the logic to many time travel science fiction stories that are riddled with deus-ex machina moments - rewriting the past and future of the story as needed to push the narrative to the desired conclusion. Problem is that sci fi does it for entertainment whereas theologians do it to manipulate people's sense of self-worth and validation.

 

It also reminds me of 1984:  “The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.”

[alreadyGone]

On 1/30/2021 at 12:01 AM, sdelsolray said:

Tiptoe Trough the Tulips

 

 

 

I must admit that I didn't 'get' this post...   for days.

But then I was not aware of "TULIP".  lol.

 

Presbyterianism is weird.

 

 

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

      Well, no wonder they came from scottish prebyterians. This is a NO TRUE SCOTSMAN after all :))

      My firm opinion is the majority do not come or stay in religion or large groups with ideologies like politics bk of truth. But bk of emotional/physical needs. This means that they do not really care about consistency and if they run into cognitive disssonance they cling to religion as much as possible. It was true for me, to some, but not all extent.

       So smtimes they come up with simple cliche to refute others. Oh you don t believe right at the bat? Then you weren't saved. So no need to try and think further. 

        The predestination thing is problematic bk God coukd have just created only the saved and spared them of the Fall, etc and all others. It just seems redundand at some level, doesn't it?

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

12 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

My firm opinion is the majority do not come or stay in religion or large groups with ideologies like politics bk of truth. But bk of emotional/physical needs.

Absolutely! Calvinists in particular put a great amount of effort pretending to support a brutally consistent and intelligent interpretation of scripture, but it's actually just a lot of fast-talking to cover up a need to feel fundamentally SUPERIOR to others (through inclusion in a pre-determined in-group) without need of justification. I bent myself into a pretzel growing up trying to find answers to the inconsistencies in this seemingly intelligent theology, but everything finally made sense when I accepted that it was emotionally driven nonsense. Calvinists need therapy!