Can We Know Eternal

[Edgarcito]

The reality is that once disenchanted with our ability to define, we are forevermore stuck in the coma of show me the connections so that I might see something outside of a disease, radiation, or an accident, halting my life.  In other words, I know no eternal.  You can't show me eternal.  I go back to particles.  Get lost faith....  

 

So I guess with regard to the Bible, Christianity, does it show us a relationship TO eternal, and what IS eternal......and are the prescribed means of living going to actually move us from A to B.  

 

Seems like a reasonable discussion.

 

Thx.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ed, have you ever considered Buddhism?  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The reason I ask is because the Buddha held that there was nothing in reality that had a beginning or an end.  It simply is.  He taught that the idea of "self"--that "I" am somehow separate from, and unique to, everything else--was the very thing that would blind me to reality as it is.  Thus, if I learn to see reality, I will also see that "I" am an integral part of everything that is, or was, or ever will be.  In his own way, the Buddha illuminated the First Law of Thermodynamics (conservation of energy), in that the matter and energy of "you" will remain constant, though changing and interchanging, for as long as reality is.  

 

You are eternity, Ed; for the edification of us all.

[sdelsolray]

Can eternity exist without time?

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

Can eternity exist without time?

 

Joseph Campbell used to lecture about how people think of eternity as a long period time. As in going on forever. When the idea in philosophy is supposed to mean absent or outside of time. Beyond time and space as he put it. 

 

But I've gone past that somewhat. Take a multiverse scenario, for instance. The eternity of the whole would consist of endless cycles of time (universe's of time and space) always existing, always coming into being. Infinite replication paradox would factor in. And in that case, the answer would be no. Eternity's existence very much involves the existence of both time and space happening on infinite and eternal scale. 

 

So it depends on a strictly philosophical view or a philosophy of science type of view. 

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The reason I ask is because the Buddha held that there was nothing in reality that had a beginning or an end.  It simply is.  He taught that the idea of "self"--that "I" am somehow separate from, and unique to, everything else--was the very thing that would blind me to reality as it is.  Thus, if I learn to see reality, I will also see that "I" am an integral part of everything that is, or was, or ever will be.  In his own way, the Buddha illuminated the First Law of Thermodynamics (conservation of energy), in that the matter and energy of "you" will remain constant, though changing and interchanging, for as long as reality is.  

 

You are eternity, Ed; for the edification of us all.

 

What's interesting is that I came to the same conclusion on my own prior to knowing anything about Buddhism. I just deduced the final conclusion as logical through contemplating things like infinity and eternity. Which is likely what got the Buddhist teaching started in the first place. It's within anyone's ability to contemplate existence as eternal, see your place within the scheme of existence as something completely made out it's fabric and structure, and then draw the logical conclusion. 

 

 

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You are eternity, Ed; for the edification of us all.

 

This is the classic, "tat tvam asi" of the Upanishads and Advaita Vedanta too. 

 

Ed, this is the place where your religion CAN take you if you pay attention. You already have pantheistic ideas. This is where pantheistic ideas lead. Big conclusions.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Have you ever considered that maybe time exists outside of time?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Hey @Edgarcito, I thought you wanted to conversate here, son.

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Hey @Edgarcito, I thought you wanted to conversate here, son.

Sorry, I had my son this weekend.  I read the posts last night and I appreciate the efforts.

 

Let me offer this up as not an argument, but claims made from Christianity... and a late model definition of life.

 

 Jhn 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Definition of life

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see METABOLISM sense 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

 

 

I believe the Bible verse definitions for eternal and life are similar in use to the conventional definitions.

 

I'm gathering the theory that "knowing God" IS eternal life, by knowing Christ.

 

I understand that doesn't light a fire anymore with most here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

On 1/30/2021 at 7:15 PM, sdelsolray said:

Can eternity exist without time?

The only thing that comes to mind, that my mind can comprehend, is a snapshot of the space time continuum.  We see a moment of time, and I gather that time is relative to a context, our universe being the context at hand.  I guess the idea is that if there are no boundaries, there is no time....

 

Above my pay grade....just my imagination.   

[◊ Krowb ◊]

On 1/29/2021 at 9:49 PM, Edgarcito said:

So I guess with regard to the Bible, Christianity, does it show us a relationship TO eternal, and what IS eternal......and are the prescribed means of living going to actually move us from A to B. 

 

As I'm sure you've gathered by now, the Bible shows whatever the reader desires. 

 

Our lately departed friend from Pittsburgh believed the Bible showed us the infinite wave . .  validated by the double slit experiment and that to believe in god through Jesus was to entangle with god and gain eternal life.

 

Prior to him we had a monastic painter monk who through monastic life had experiences with god and if we only really truly believed (like him) we could then know god and rest assured of our eternal fate.

 

You are correct, quoting the Bible as an authority on matters beyond reality is not going to amount to much for most of the members here.  You could just as easily quote various passages in the Quran regarding the eternal gardens where allah places those in whom he is pleased.

[pantheory]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:49 PM, Edgarcito said:

The reality is that once disenchanted with our ability to define, we are forevermore stuck in the coma of show me the connections so that I might see something outside of a disease, radiation, or an accident, halting my life.  In other words, I know no eternal.  You can't show me eternal.  I go back to particles.  Get lost faith....  

 

So I guess with regard to the Bible, Christianity, does it show us a relationship TO eternal, and what IS eternal......and are the prescribed means of living going to actually move us from A to B.  

 

Seems like a reasonable discussion.

Thx.

 

 

Hi Edgarcito, How goes it

 

Yeah, an eternity of time is a difficult concept to understand.  "Eternity" is a type of infinity. It is a continuous cause-and-effect sequence for an infinity of time. Saint Augustine said that "eternity" was separate from our understanding of time.

He had two answers for those who asked what was God doing for the eternity of time before creation. Jokingly he said, God was preparing Hell for those who ask such questions. On a serious level, he noted there was no time before God created and hence the question is meaningless. When God created the heavens and the earth he also created space and time. Before time began there was just eternity. He said God is a timeless being and time only began with his creation of the universe.

 

Of course this is the religious version of it. In cosmology many in the past, and some presently, believe the universe is infinite in age. For those that believe in multiverses many believe there was an infinite number of them, an eternity backward in time.

 

From my own point of view as an scientist and atheist, an eternity of time is simply a man-made fantasy.
 

[pantheory]

51 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

The only thing that comes to mind, that my mind can comprehend, is a snapshot of the space time continuum.  We see a moment of time, and I gather that time is relative to a context, our universe being the context at hand.  I guess the idea is that if there are no boundaries, there is no time....

 

Above my pay grade....just my imagination.   

 

Another man-made invention is the so-called space-time continuum. Many believe in it but IMO there is no such thing. Space and time can have no separate existence from matter.

 

https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/a11332.html

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Sorry, I had my son this weekend.  I read the posts last night and I appreciate the efforts.

 

Let me offer this up as not an argument, but claims made from Christianity... and a late model definition of life.

 

 Jhn 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Definition of life

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see METABOLISM sense 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

 

I believe the Bible verse definitions for eternal and life are similar in use to the conventional definitions.

I'm gathering the theory that "knowing God" IS eternal life, by knowing Christ.

I understand that doesn't light a fire anymore with most here. 

 

 

The definition of life you have chosen is based upon science so it is far easier for me to agree with than a religious understanding of life.. I think that a good analogy to the character/ essance of life is understood by an analogy:

 

Life is the difference between a clock wound up, and one that is not wound up or working.  When a watch gets dirty on the inside its mechanics no longer function.

[midniterider]

Life is like a box of chocolates. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVBJhHWPAZA

 

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Life is like a box of chocolates. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVBJhHWPAZA

 

Apparently were at the wrapper stage, post nut crunching...

 

[midniterider]

On 1/30/2021 at 7:32 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

This is the classic, "tat tvam asi" of the Upanishads and Advaita Vedanta too. 

 

 

 

22. In Whom reside all beings, and Who resides in all beings by virtue of His being the giver of grace to all - I am that Soul of the Universe, the Supreme Being, I am that Soul of the Universe, the Supreme Being. - Amritabindu Upanishad.

 

...

 

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Advaita-Vedanta-feel-about-Jesus

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

From my own point of view as an scientist and atheist, an eternity of time is simply a man-made fantasy.
 

How can we say it's a fantasy....at some point we can't measure our constraints....whether they be small or large.  Thinking the appropriate answer is there may be an eternity within our reality and there may be an eternity outside our reality.  In other words, if we can represent a complete stoppage of matter, then I would more tend to agree with you.  But we can only measure so much.  Maybe math represents what happens as to matter as it moves towards less movement.  Space?  F'n with my own head now.

[WalterP]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Sorry, I had my son this weekend.  I read the posts last night and I appreciate the efforts.

 

Let me offer this up as not an argument, but claims made from Christianity... and a late model definition of life.

 

 Jhn 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Definition of life

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see METABOLISM sense 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

 

 

I believe the Bible verse definitions for eternal and life are similar in use to the conventional definitions.

 

I'm gathering the theory that "knowing God" IS eternal life, by knowing Christ.

 

I understand that doesn't light a fire anymore with most here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But would you really want Jesus to be your guide to eternal life, Edgarcito?

 

Given how he, his dad and his spirit collectively screwed Adam over in Eden?

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/84991-please-join-me-here-pittsburghjoe/page/9/#comments

 

You could start to answer the first question for yourself by stepping into PittsburghJoe's shoes and answering this.

 

Did god make Adam with the knowledge of both good and evil?

 

Please answer.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Oh, this is fixin' to get so deep not even Adele would roll in it. 

[Edgarcito]

16 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

But would you really want Jesus to be your guide to eternal life, Edgarcito?

 

Given how he, his dad and his spirit collectively screwed Adam over in Eden?

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/84991-please-join-me-here-pittsburghjoe/page/9/#comments

 

You could start to answer the first question for yourself by stepping into PittsburghJoe's shoes and answering this.

 

Did god make Adam with the knowledge of both good and evil?

 

Please answer.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

I assume she perceived an interpretation from the serpent.  Can't see where it says she knew....

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

How can we say it's a fantasy....at some point we can't measure our constraints....whether they be small or large.  Thinking the appropriate answer is there may be an eternity within our reality and there may be an eternity outside our reality.  In other words, if we can represent a complete stoppage of matter, then I would more tend to agree with you.  But we can only measure so much.  Maybe math represents what happens as to matter as it moves towards less movement.  Space?  F'n with my own head now.

 

Think of space as no more than the distance between matter. Beyond the full extension of matter space would not exist at all or even have any meaning to it.

 

The stoppage of the motion of all matter would take away a dimension from our universe which we call time. Without change, time would not exist or have any meaning to it. That eternal/ eternity is a fantasy relates to theories like the Big Bang that asserts that there was no such thing as before the beginning of the universe or of time. Although I think the Big Bang model is mostly BS, I agree with this aspect of it.  Of course one could describe the forever-forward extension of time as an eternal extension.

[Edgarcito]

18 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Think of space as no more than the distance between matter. Beyond the full extension of matter space would not exist at all or even have any meaning to it.

 

The stoppage of the motion of all matter would take away a dimension from our universe which we call time. Without change, time would not exist or have any meaning to it. That eternal/ eternity is a fantasy relates to theories like the Big Bang that asserts that there was no such thing as before beginning of time. Although I think the Big Bang model is mostly BS, I agree with this aspect of it.  Of course one could describe the forever-forward extension of time as an eternal extension.

Well, that's mostly where my brain took me.....but we can't define no motion.  Why is the removal of time not an "eternity outside of time".  Space essentially is it's own eternity?

 

Edit:  I can't see that space in itself has no qualities.  Matter, one would expect, would be effected by space....

 

Keep in mind please sir, I know NOTHING about physics.....nor do I want to associate with the physics department.  We in the chemistry department have standards...

[pantheory]

6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Well, that's mostly where my brain took me.....but we can't define no motion.  Why is the removal of time not an "eternity outside of time".  Space essentially is it's own eternity?

 

According to the definition of space I gave, it is a very simple concept requiring little intellect for its understanding. Space is "the distance between matter," no more than this.

No motion would be an imaginary universe without time. It could never be an eternal reality according to science. 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Well, that's mostly where my brain took me.....but we can't define no motion.  Why is the removal of time not an "eternity outside of time".  Space essentially is it's own eternity?

 

It strikes me that "time" and all attendant terms are simply a construct for our observation of cause and effect.  We had no conception and thus no words for magnetism before we "discovered" - notwithstanding it had always existed in our reality.  Same thing for electromagnetic waves, etc...

 

If eternity is being defined in relation to time, then to say eternal time without "cause and effect"/"in motion"/"acting upon one another" has no meaning.  There may exist an eternity beyond us, but how we'd ever know is an open question.  Our universe presently gives the impression it will spread out into a "heat death" unless something external acts upon our universe or some other, as yet unknown, force acts.

[Edgarcito]

20 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

According to the definition of space I gave, it is a very simple concept requiring little intellect for its understanding. Space is "the distance between matter," no more than this.

No motion would be an imaginary universe without time. It could never be an eternal reality according to science. 

Space cannot therefore just be a distance, no?  Because if we define it as part of our reality, then we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle...  Distance must have some qualities or it wouldn't be real.

 

Kind of what bothers me about these discussions.  Distance at some point might be negligible because we can't define the makeup of the distance.....perhaps it is sub sub sub sub atomic particles that we will never define, but that doesn't mean that distance is "no more than this".