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Can We Know Eternal


Edgarcito
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15 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

 

Romans 5 : 12

 

 

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

 

 

God didn't just punish Adam and Eve, he cursed them and ALL their descendants with death.

 

Genesis 3 : 17 - 20.

 

17 And to Adam he said,

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
    and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
    ‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
    in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;


18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
    and you shall eat the plants of the field.


19 By the sweat of your face
    you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
    for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
    and to dust you shall return.”

 

20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

 

Now you know the criteria, Edgarcito.

 

Back to the question.

 

And on what basis does the parent punish not just child with death, but the child's children, their children and their children's children and so on?

 

?

Obviously God’s creation through Adam did not know God’s heart to his satisfaction.  He brought it forth, He can take it out.  Are you satisfied yet...

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Just a stupid analogy, but if I have milk in a bowl of cereal, I have distance between the cereal.  If I have no milk, I have no distance.  So if I have distance in space, why would it only be a quality-less variable.    Again, just crap off the cuff.  

 

It's not a stupid analogy, but it does appear at present that matter can be suspended at distance in a vacuum (sans milk).  If there's some undetectable force that binds the matter together, perhaps, but as you've noted, it is currently undetectable so speak of it at all is to engage in speculation.

 

As @pantheory has said, distance can be our way of acknowledging "space" between objects.  If the milk (medium) were to be drained and the cereal retained their positions (as opposed to clumping together) then there is still distance and thus, space, between them.  How is this possible?  No idea - perhaps this is why we envision spacetime as a fabric?  It being the medium in which all our matter is enmeshed? These are fun thoughts.

 

If a more science minded member would care to chime in?  I'm far out of my depth.  But it's fun to ponder.

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5 minutes ago, Krowb said:

 

It's not a stupid analogy, but it does appear at present that matter can be suspended at distance in a vacuum (sans milk).  If there's some undetectable force that binds the matter together, perhaps, but as you've noted, it is currently undetectable so speak of it at all is to engage in speculation.

 

As @pantheory has said, distance can be our way of acknowledging "space" between objects.  If the milk (medium) were to be drained and the cereal retained their positions (as opposed to clumping together) then there is still distance and thus, space, between them.  How is this possible?  No idea - perhaps this is why we envision spacetime as a fabric?  It being the medium in which all our matter is enmeshed? These are fun thoughts.

 

If a more science minded member would care to chime in?  I'm far out of my depth.  But it's fun to ponder.

Thx, I called my sister.  She worked at the U of CO space physics lab... specifically testing vacuum systems.  She disagrees w me lol.

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Hey Walter, doesn’t Jesus specifically offer humanity eternal life, to know God, through Himself?  Doesn’t He even say on the cross, forgive them Father because they don’t know?  That he takes death upon Himself in     our inabilities?  

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1 hour ago, WalterP said:

 

And on what basis does the parent punish not just child with death, but the child's children, their children and their children's children and so on?

 

 

Off with their heads! It's a great deterrent to future infractions!

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Thx, I called my sister.  She worked at the U of CO space physics lab... specifically testing vacuum systems.  She disagrees w me lol.

 

The more we know!

 

I have a cousin who is an astrophysicist. When I first read about entanglement potentially allowing information to travel faster than light I called her and she laughed at me before patiently explaining how that's not the case in a way my non-science background brain could understand.  Always nice to have family set us straight.

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6 hours ago, Krowb said:

If you really want to bend your mind, try to realize there is more empty volume separating your protons/neutrons/electrons/atoms/molecules than the volume of that matter itself.  We are more vacuum than solid.  Crazy to ponder . . .

 

We are that space, basically. Some people struggle to understand what it means when someone says that we ARE the universe incarnate. The above description should make it more obvious. 

 

Everything seems to be interconnected through the common medium of space, regardless of the perceived differences in matter. It's the same space running between the various different forms of matter. The space is omnipresent so to speak. And continuous. 

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6 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Obviously God’s creation through Adam did not know God’s heart to his satisfaction.  He brought it forth, He can take it out.  Are you satisfied yet...

 

You aren't following.

 

God's warning to Adam was only about HIM, nobody else.

 

On the day that you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil YOU will die.

 

Nobody else.

 

Not even Eve had been created at this point.

 

So, as far as Adam could understand, the only person to be punished for disobeying god was himself.

 

No other humans existed and their existence was outside of Adam's understanding at the time god gave him that warning.

 

So you think its fair and just and good for god to punish and curse the whole human race with death because of Adam's disobedience?

 

Really?

 

You're ok with a father punishing his grandchildren, great grandchildren and all of their descendants because of his child's one act of disobedience?

 

Really?

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6 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Hey Walter, doesn’t Jesus specifically offer humanity eternal life, to know God, through Himself?  Doesn’t He even say on the cross, forgive them Father because they don’t know?  That he takes death upon Himself in     our inabilities?  

 

You still aren't following.

 

Eternal life is only offered to humanity by Jesus because eternal death came into the world via Adam.

 

Jesus is putting right Adam's sin.

 

But the warning god gave to Adam about sinning was incomprehensible to him (you agree on this) and the punishment wasn't only on Adam, it fell upon people Adam couldn't have known would exist.

 

So Jesus's gift of eternal life is no gift at all.

 

Adam should have been responsible ONLY for his own sin.

 

WE, his descendants shouldn't have been punished with death at all.

 

WE, weren't there.

 

WE, didn't exist when the sin took place.

 

Jesus is delivering us from a penalty that shouldn't have been inflicted on us in the first place.

 

Only on Adam.

 

Do you get it now?

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I've heard some Eastern theologians posit that god is/was both good and evil and that he pulled the evil side out of himself and created Lucifer from it.  It was necessary for Adam and Eve to "sin" so that we could know the complete nature of God, both good and evil.  Interesting thought.

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I've heard some Eastern theologians posit that god is/was both good and evil and that he pulled the evil side out of himself and created Lucifer from it.  It was necessary for Adam and Eve to "sin" so that we could know the complete nature of God, both good and evil.  Interesting thought.

 

There is no limit to the extent to which humans will go to invent a Supreme Daddy to rule the universe.

For them.

 

Human beings create God in their own image.

Because they can.

 

 

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It's all so wonderfully mythical..

 

God tells a woman...

"there is something here that is new to you, unique in your experience. Something wondrous and powerful beyond your present understanding. Something so exciting and magical and enticing that it becomes necessary to warn you that it isn't for you.

 

So leave it alone, don't touch it.

 

Now, I'm going away for a while and leave you to do as you will...   I'm off to a celestial beach somewhere to kick back. Remember now, don't touch that wondrous enticing exciting thing there..."

 

He does this knowing fully the innate nature of this life-form he has created.

He knows that between Adam and Eve, she is the female. The gender which by her very nature craves excitement and mystery.

 

Knowing that if she fails to obey..

Then it will be necessary under his own laws and rules to enable and ensure millennia of suffering and misery among billions of Adam and Eve's descendants.

Just to make a point.

 

I would say "you just can't make this stuff up!.."  Except of course, some uneducated humans who themselves lacked even the world perspective or knowledge of science and reasoning possessed by a modern 15-year-old..  did just that.

 

And managed to get generations of humans to buy in and devote their lives to that belief..

 

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I owe pittsburghjoe, along with every member participating in this discussion 

for helping free me from my former Christian belief.

 

I'm forced to admit to myself and anyone reading here that as a Christian I had never truly considered the extent to which all Christian belief rests upon the silly-assed irrational concept of "original sin".

 

There was no one in the Garden with an iPhone recording video, people.

There was no one there with a quill and scroll of parchment writing it all down.

There were no eye-witnesses at all.

 

It's a MYTH.  A silly, ancient myth.

 

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16 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

You aren't following.

 

God's warning to Adam was only about HIM, nobody else.

 

On the day that you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil YOU will die.

 

Nobody else.

 

Not even Eve had been created at this point.

 

So, as far as Adam could understand, the only person to be punished for disobeying god was himself.

 

No other humans existed and their existence was outside of Adam's understanding at the time god gave him that warning.

 

So you think its fair and just and good for god to punish and curse the whole human race with death because of Adam's disobedience?

 

Really?

 

You're ok with a father punishing his grandchildren, great grandchildren and all of their descendants because of his child's one act of disobedience?

 

Really?

I disagree Walter...there are verses....Adam 1, the second Adam.  God didn't just kick Adam out of the Garden.  Had Adam maintained said instructions in order that his communion with God was according to God,  he would have stayed I gather.  Then we have the OT law....instructions for cleanliness/holiness?  Man was again unable to maintain communion.  

 

And Eve's rendition of the instructions was not the same as Adam's....so you think God f'ked that up?  No, it was Adam.  

 

I don't think you exegesis holds water/Spirit.  

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16 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

You still aren't following.

 

Eternal life is only offered to humanity by Jesus because eternal death came into the world via Adam.

 

Jesus is putting right Adam's sin.

 

But the warning god gave to Adam about sinning was incomprehensible to him (you agree on this) and the punishment wasn't only on Adam, it fell upon people Adam couldn't have known would exist.

 

So Jesus's gift of eternal life is no gift at all.

 

Adam should have been responsible ONLY for his own sin.

 

WE, his descendants shouldn't have been punished with death at all.

 

WE, weren't there.

 

WE, didn't exist when the sin took place.

 

Jesus is delivering us from a penalty that shouldn't have been inflicted on us in the first place.

 

Only on Adam.

 

Do you get it now?

It doesn't matter whether Adam knew or not.... God gave him instructions.  Perhaps God created humans but still hoped that they followed his heart.  You notice throughout the Bible there are men that are STILL fallen, yet follow God's heart.....and God chooses these men to do great things.  I don't know why I argue with you Walter, your interpretation of the Bible kinda sucks.  

 

And through science, I still understand that Adams "sins", actions outside of a holy path would effect his offspring.  So humanity had one shot in the beginning at maintaining a holiness.  Adam forevermore f'ked that up.  Now we just have faith that Christ got it right and He make up for our errant paths.  

 

No, I don't get it now, and I think if you ask almost everyone here their interpretation matches your, you would certainly be an outlier.

 

Thanks, always happy to play.

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2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I disagree Walter...there are verses....Adam 1, the second Adam.  God didn't just kick Adam out of the Garden.  Had Adam maintained said instructions in order that his communion with God was according to God,  he would have stayed I gather.  Then we have the OT law....instructions for cleanliness/holiness?  Man was again unable to maintain communion.  

 

And Eve's rendition of the instructions was not the same as Adam's....so you think God f'ked that up?  No, it was Adam.  

 

I don't think you exegesis holds water/Spirit.  

 

Ok Edgarcito,

 

You reckon that Adam should have just obeyed god, without understanding god's command?

 

If so,  I'll ask you the same question I've just put to PittsburghJoe.

 

Where in unthinking obedience is the free will that god wants us to exercise?

 

Since Adam didn't understand what good and evil were, if you still reckon he should have obeyed, then he's doing so without understanding.

 

Like a robot.

 

Robots don't understand their commands, they just obey them.

 

Anyway, please answer the question.

 

Where in unthinking obedience is the free will that god wants us to exercise?

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It doesn't matter whether Adam knew or not.... God gave him instructions.  Perhaps God created humans but still hoped that they followed his heart.  You notice throughout the Bible there are men that are STILL fallen, yet follow God's heart.....and God chooses these men to do great things.  I don't know why I argue with you Walter, your interpretation of the Bible kinda sucks.  

 

And through science, I still understand that Adams "sins", actions outside of a holy path would effect his offspring.  So humanity had one shot in the beginning at maintaining a holiness.  Adam forevermore f'ked that up.  Now we just have faith that Christ got it right and He make up for our errant paths.  

 

No, I don't get it now, and I think if you ask almost everyone here their interpretation matches your, you would certainly be an outlier.

 

Thanks, always happy to play.

 

Same question.

 

Where in unthinking obedience is the free will that god wants us to exercise?

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Edgarcito,

 

Even though both of you are posting in different threads, both you and Joe are throwing away Adam's free will by insisting that he should have obeyed god without understanding.

 

That's why I'm asking you both the same question.

 

Walter.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Ok Edgarcito,

 

You reckon that Adam should have just obeyed god, without understanding god's command?

 

If so,  I'll ask you the same question I've just put to PittsburghJoe.

 

Where in unthinking obedience is the free will that god wants us to exercise?

 

Since Adam didn't understand what good and evil were, if you still reckon he should have obeyed, then he's doing so without understanding.

 

Like a robot.

 

Robots don't understand their commands, they just obey them.

 

Anyway, please answer the question.

 

Where in unthinking obedience is the free will that god wants us to exercise?

 

 

 

 

It's about trust Walter.  I gather God wanted to see trust in Adam.  Pretty sure a knowledge of good and evil is not required to execute trust.....

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Just now, Edgarcito said:

It's about trust Walter.  I gather God wanted to see trust in Adam.  Pretty sure a knowledge of good and evil is not required to execute trust.....

How would Adam trust god when it has already been established that god was withholding vital information from him?

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5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

How would Adam trust god when it has already been established that god was withholding vital information from him?

How do yours or my children trust us when they are not to the point of puberty, when they start to question their parents.

 

Edit:  And y'all keep harping on that Adam didn't know.  So my explanation is consistent with "Adam didn't know".

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5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Trust, sir.

But apparently, this god did not (or would not) trust Adam.  Trust runs both ways.

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