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On 2/7/2021 at 6:13 PM, Edgarcito said:

Hey, just a suggestion....I'd like to keep this thread about the original thought.....

 

It's taken me a little while, but I now see what you did here (and there), Edgarcito.

 

Very clever!

 

Can anyone else see what Edgarcito did?

 

You'll have to compare this thread with this one...

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/85003-free-will-what-is-it-does-god-of-the-bible-offer-it-to-us/

 

...and look at my questions to Edgarcito on Sunday at 8:06 and yesterday at 03:44.

 

Do you see it?

 

 

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I owe pittsburghjoe, along with every member participating in this discussion  for helping free me from my former Christian belief.   I'm forced to admit to myself and anyone reading he

Ouch!  You just shot yourself in the foot, Edgarcito.   Scripture tells us that god made Adam and Eve unable to recognize good from evil.   So, from their p.o.v, Eden was a level p

Of course that's the opposite of what the story actually entails. The "gods," not "god," did want robots according to the way in which the myth is laid out. No monotheistic god yet. No free will theol

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On 2/7/2021 at 1:24 PM, Krowb said:

 

Out of curiosity, were any of the NDEs on the show from a non-Christian background?  If other cultures and religions also experience NDE and those experiences are similar to the Christian community, that could indicate more of a pantheism as opposed to John 14:6.  The concept of eternal would be quite inclusive.

Without watching it again, I'm not remembering them describing Christian themed experiences, but more pantheistic.....a warmth, oneness with light/color.  Sorry, I was multitasking while watching.  It's on Netflix if you are interested...the 1st of 6 episodes.  

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On 2/7/2021 at 1:44 PM, midniterider said:
Me: Trust is gained when you build a history of caring with someone. Unless you are really insecure, you dont need to 'test' people's loyalty or love or trust. God just shows his insecurity by testing Adam, testing Job, testing Abraham, testing every human being. 

 

Ed: But y'all just said there was no history of understanding, that they were essentially void of understanding. 
I guess I mean "in reality, not in the mythology of the Bible", people build a history of caring and because of that, trust...for someone else. I didnt have to perform some obedience test on my child, like place a syringe full of cyanide on a table in front of them and then say, "Dont shoot yourself up with that...." 
That kind of behavior isn't love. It's abusive parenting and what leads to social workers taking children from their parents. 
But a Christian will cut God slack for that kind of psychotic behavior because...well, I'm not sure why.

Again, God seems to lean towards those men with like heart....that He wanted His creation to be filled with those type humans....the football kid from the University of Arkansas comes to mind.  Adam apparently was not a faith pillar.

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On 2/1/2021 at 12:56 PM, pantheory said:

From my own point of view as an scientist and atheist, an eternity of time is simply a man-made fantasy.

It seems to me that the entire time concept is man made. Booga-booga.

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Well let's mix a few thoughts.  Let's take inclusion....today's big buzz thought.  Everyone wants to be included, "seen/heard".  This idea of communion, oneness, part of, validation, seems to heal us.  The admonition,  "Do not quit meeting together".....and make sure the new visitors to the church are welcomed, felt loved.  Inside Christianity and outside as well.

 

Thinking FB also uses this for and against us.  But the relationship to or knowing the larger group is especially something we see in Christianity...imo.  Come to church to be a part of an eternal, a smaller eternal, but in type, an eternal...that this is life.

Part of a family, part of a group.

 

But even in Christianity, there are groups that do not yield the good intentions of the concept, as many of us have experienced. 

 

And then you can theorize the evolutionary aspect I gather.

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29 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Again, God seems to lean towards those men with like heart....that He wanted His creation to be filled with those type humans....the football kid from the University of Arkansas comes to mind.  Adam apparently was not a faith pillar.

 

Not sure what this means. Like heart? Arkansas football kid? 

 

Not sure why God created Adam in a way he didnt like. Maybe I will get out my easel and paintbrushes and paint a picture of something that does not please me?

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35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Again, God seems to lean towards those men with like heart....that He wanted His creation to be filled with those type humans....the football kid from the University of Arkansas comes to mind.  Adam apparently was not a faith pillar.

 

As an Englishman, could Edgarcito (or anyone else) please explain what this means?

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3 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

As an Englishman, could Edgarcito (or anyone else) please explain what this means?

 

I live in the same country as Ed and I dont know what he's talking about. :)

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41 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Again, God seems to lean towards those men with like heart....that He wanted His creation to be filled with those type humans....the football kid from the University of Arkansas comes to mind.  Adam apparently was not a faith pillar.

 

Could you please explain this for at least two of us in this thread, Edgarcito.

 

Thank you.

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34 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Not sure what this means. Like heart? Arkansas football kid? 

 

Not sure why God created Adam in a way he didnt like. Maybe I will get out my easel and paintbrushes and paint a picture of something that does not please me?

Godly, faithful.....  Brandon Burlsworth, a movie made about him, his faith, work ethic, played at Arkansas.  

 

Post you picture when you're done...

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2 hours ago, florduh said:

It seems to me that the entire time concept is man made. Booga-booga.

 

Yes, time is a man invented concept, but so are all the other dimensions such as length, width, and height. In math these are called the Cartesian dimensions. Time is an interval of change as determined by a measuring-instrument called a clock. Einstein  showed that time is a necessary dimension also to mathematically explain spacial changes of the cosmos over time, which he called space-time.

 

As all understand, time is a very valuable concept which serves mankind very well. Our measurement of time was originally based upon the position of the sun via sun dials etc. Now we have very precise atomic clocks.

 

If you're talking about how quantum physics describes time then you are right, their descriptions and definition of time are simply booga-booga BS.

 

Infinite time going forward seems probable, but infinite time going backwards is no longer prevailing theory.

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39 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Godly, faithful.....  Brandon Burlsworth, a movie made about him, his faith, work ethic, played at Arkansas.  

 

Post you picture when you're done...

 

Yes, why didn't god, with his all knowledge and his all power, make Adam fit to pass the test?

 

You raise an excellent question, Edgarcito.

 

Do you have any insights on this?

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7 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Yes, why didn't god, with his all knowledge and his all power, make Adam fit to pass the test?

 

You raise an excellent question, Edgarcito.

 

Do you have any insights on this?

Maybe he was looking for an equal to hang out with so he gave Adam absolute will...

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16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Maybe he was looking for an equal to hang out with so he gave Adam absolute will...

 

Sorry Edgarcito, but scripture disagrees with you.

 

If god had made Adam equal to him, then he would have made him with a knowledge of good and evil.

 

Genesis 3 : 22.

 

"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Adam was made without this knowledge and only acquired it when he ate the fruit of the forbidden tree.

 

Try again?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Maybe he was looking for an equal to hang out with so he gave Adam absolute will...

 

It seems to me God created Adam and Eve to have someone to bow down to him and feed his ego.  But when they disobeyed, he stomped on them.  You dont do that to people you want to hang out with. Sounds like an ancient myth.  A story to scare helpless people into submission.  Written by sly, devious, authoritarian men in an attempt to control the masses.  And it has worked for eons, but thankfully is slowly loosing it's grip.  The self fulfilling prophecy of original sin is loosing it's clout.  Hopefully it will be replaced with educated research and critical thinking about what is in the best interests of humans and the environment.  

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9 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Maybe he was looking for an equal to hang out with so he gave Adam absolute will...

 

Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2 give the rank of mankind versus the angels, who are, of course, subordinate to god.

 

So, NO Adam was not made an equal of god in any Biblical sense.

 

Nor was he equal to god in his moral knowledge.

 

Hebrews 2 : 6 - 8

 

But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
    a son of man that you care for him?


You made them a little lower than the angels;
    you crowned them with glory and honor


    and put everything under their feet.”

 

 

The glory and honor given to Adam was dominion over the animals and the Earth.

 

But as far as knowledge of good and evil, god made him clueless.

 

 

Which brings us right back to the burning question.

 

Why didn't god make Adam fit to pass the test of moral knowledge?

 

Would you like to have another try, Edgarcito?

 

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12 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

It seems to me God created Adam and Eve to have someone to bow down to him and feed his ego.  But when they disobeyed, he stomped on them.  You dont do that to people you want to hang out with. Sounds like an ancient myth.  A story to scare helpless people into submission.  Written by sly, devious, authoritarian men in an attempt to control the masses.  And it has worked for eons, but thankfully is slowly loosing it's grip.  The self fulfilling prophecy of original sin is loosing it's clout.  Hopefully it will be replaced with educated research and critical thinking about what is in the best interests of humans and the environment.  

Weezer, here's how it's gonna work out for you hopefully.  One day, you're gonna discover that no one has the answers, not you, not the brightest folks and their educated research.  And then when you have your turn in the barrel, like life does to everyone, you might understand concepts like grace and forgiveness and faith in the myth you are bashing are actually valid truths.  If I can help, please let me know.  

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No need for educated research or faith to see what the Bible actually says about what happened in Eden.

 

It's written there.

 

Just read it.

 

Perhaps you should try doing just that, Edgarcito?

 

Then you can use what you see to answer my question.

 

 

 

Why didn't god make Adam fit to pass the test of moral knowledge?

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51 minutes ago, WalterP said:

No need for educated research or faith to see what the Bible actually says about what happened in Eden.

 

It's written there.

 

Just read it.

 

Perhaps you should try doing just that, Edgarcito?

 

Then you can use what you see to answer my question.

 

 

 

Why didn't god make Adam fit to pass the test of moral knowledge?

Is your method of aggravating posters with repetitive questioning on purpose Walter.  Can you not comment with something cogent and then be happy whether someone answers you or not.  Are you that hurt by Christianity?  If you are, it's ok, but I can read.  I can see the questions you ask.  You don't have to ding the thread over and over.  A simple honest discussion is what I'm looking for....not an aggressive discourse.  I worked through that years ago with these people.  We could have yelled at each other back then, but you missed your chance. 

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39 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Is your method of aggravating posters with repetitive questioning on purpose Walter. 

 

 

This is the Lion's Den, Edgarcito.  Repetitive questioning becomes necessary when enquiring minds don't receive the honest answers they seek.

 

If that process is aggravating to you, then you could either stay out of the Den or give honest answers.

 

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Can you not comment with something cogent and then be happy whether someone answers you or not. 

 

 

I endeavour to make all of my comments be as cogent as possible.  And No, I'm never happy when there's an honest answer to be had, but its not given.

 

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Are you that hurt by Christianity? 

 

 

No.  Not Christianity exclusively.  I just have zero tolerance for lies.

 

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If you are, it's ok, but I can read. 

 

 

Well, I'm not.  

 

Quote

 

 

I can see the questions you ask. 

 

 

Reading my questions is one thing, answering them is another.

 

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You don't have to ding the thread over and over. 

 

 

By doing this there's a nett benefit for the whole Ex-Christian community.  You may not like it personally, but the good of the whole outweighs your personal discomfort. 

 

The benefit I'm talking about is when the members see the personal discomfort (cognitive dissonance) of individual Christians and realize that they are dodging, evading and doing everything in their power to avoid having their faith challenged.  The lengths that Christians will go to cling on to their beliefs, even if the face of what scripture plainly says, helps those in the process of de-converting.  Which is, of course, one of the principal aims of this forum.

 

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A simple honest discussion is what I'm looking for....not an aggressive discourse. 

 

 

I would value an honest discussion too.  But I am also prepared to question aggressively when there's a shortfall of honesty from certain Christians.  As the RedneckProfessor noted recently, things can get brutal in the Den.  To repeat my earlier point, if you don't want an aggressive discourse, either stay out of the Den or answer direct questions honestly and directly.

 

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I worked through that years ago with these people.  We could have yelled at each other back then, but you missed your chance. 

 

I won't be yelling at anyone, Edgarcito.  My modus operandi involves persistent, polite and relentless questioning.  Not yelling.

 

 

Talking about questioning...

 

Why didn't god make Adam fit to pass the test of moral knowledge?

 

Please answer, Edgarcito.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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6 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Weezer, here's how it's gonna work out for you hopefully.  One day, you're gonna discover that no one has the answers, not you, not the brightest folks and their educated research.  And then when you have your turn in the barrel, like life does to everyone, you might understand concepts like grace and forgiveness and faith in the myth you are bashing are actually valid truths.  If I can help, please let me know.  

 

You are right.  I don't have the answers.  And I don't believe you do.  I am 79 years old and spent 50 years prayerfully trying to sort out the "truth".  I decided that there is possibly a "god" (if that's what you want to call it) out there somewhere, but I am convinced it is not the God of your bible. 

 

I don't know what you mean by "your turn in the barrel."  Is that something you found in the bible?  I have heard of shooting fish in a barrel. Is that what your god does? 

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If the bible said God took a big nasty hammer and caved in Adam's skull with it, a Christian would say, "Well he must have had a good reason for that!" 

 

"I dont know why God did that" - Answer that won't piss off your imaginary friend.

"Yes, he's apparently evil." - Answer that will piss off your imaginary friend. 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

You are right.  I don't have the answers.  And I don't believe you do.  I am 79 years old and spent 50 years prayerfully trying to sort out the "truth".  I decided that there is possibly a "god" (if that's what you want to call it) out there somewhere, but I am convinced it is not the God of your bible. 

 

I don't know what you mean by "your turn in the barrel."  Is that something you found in the bible?  I have heard of shooting fish in a barrel. Is that what your god does? 

Sounds reasonable to me.  But when I read your posts, you seem more aggravated than not.  I would think that if you have done the work to sort out "God" through your lifetime, you would be more content.  Or am I just misreading the tone of your posts.

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8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Sounds reasonable to me.  But when I read your posts, you seem more aggravated than not.  I would think that if you have done the work to sort out "God" through your lifetime, you would be more content.  Or am I just misreading the tone of your posts.

 

Aggravated?   Sarcasm?  Perhaps a bit of both.  Why do you ask?

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