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Hello again Joe.  :)

 

Our dialogue about events in the garden of Eden has been cut short by that thread being locked.  So, we have some unfinished business that needs attending to.

 

First, I'll respond to your last message to me.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Joe,

Once again its late here and I'm going to log off in a minute.

So, I'll add another question for you to answer.  

When answering this second question, please take this into consideration.

God could not have told Adam what good and evil were before Eve took the fruit - because of Genesis 3 : 22.

Genesis 3 : 22  (After Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit.)

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

You see what the text says?

After god discovers what Adam and Eve had done he says... 'NOW'. 

This means that before that moment Adam couldn't have known what good and evil were.

God says so.

It's there in b&w.

Now for my second question.

How could Adam have known what good and evil were when god warned him about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Thank you.

Walter.

Another tendency of the members here is to think sin couldn't be in the garden for a couple minutes. Ridiculous.

Adam didn't need to know what evil was. God told him he would die and to not touch it. 

 

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I didn't ask you about sin being in the garden, Joe.

 

I asked you about how Adam could have known what good and evil were before he ate the fruit.

 

These are two different things.

 

So, you didn't answer my question.

 

I'm going to ask you exactly the same question again, but first I have something to share with you that will help you see exactly when Adam came to know good and evil.

 

 

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Ok, so what about Joe's reply?   Well, once again he dodged the question.   'Did god make Adam with a knowledge of both good and evil?'   None of what Joe wrote deals wit

@pittsburghjoe I am going to comment on a couple of things, not to antagonize you, but to help you get a better context of the intent of this site, your dialogue, etc.   1. First and foremos

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Here's a timeline of the events in the garden of Eden, Joe.

 

The chapter and verse is on the left and what happened is on the right.

 

 

 

TIMELINE

 

2: 15.  God puts Adam into the garden of Eden.

 

2:16 & 17. God commands Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because on that day he will die.

 

2:22. God makes Eve out of Adam’s rib.

 

3:6. Eve takes and eats the fruit, gives some to Adam, who also eats it.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

3:7. Then their eyes were opened, and they knew good and evil.

 

3:11. God discovers that Adam and Eve have disobeyed him.

 

3:16. God curses Eve.

 

3:17. God curses Adam.

 

3:22. God says, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

 

 

This timeline is divided into two halves.  Above the line, neither Adam nor Eve know what good and evil is.  Below the line, they both know.

 

So, in chapter 2, verses 16 and 17, Adam can't possibly understand what god meant by good and evil.

 

That knowledge didn't come to Adam until after he ate the fruit, in chapter 3, verse 6.

 

We know that this must be true because god himself says so in chapter 3, verse 22.

 

When god says something he cannot be wrong, he cannot be mistaken and he cannot be lying.  

 

Hebrews 6 : 18 says that it is impossible for god to lie.

 

Therefore, when god says, 'the man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil' this must be the truth.

 

Adam only came to know good and evil after he disobeyed god and ate the fruit of the tree.

 

So, when god commanded Adam not to eat from the tree, back in chapter 2: 16 & 17, Adam couldn't have understood what god meant.

 

 

Now we come back to my question, Joe.  Please answer it.

 

How could Adam have known what good and evil were when god warned him about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

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Before you answer me Joe, let me just warn you about suggesting that god might have told Adam about good and evil before Genesis 3 : 6.

 

Proverbs 3 : 6.

 

Every word of god proves true; he is a shield for those who take refuge in him.  Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found to be a liar.

 

If you persist in suggesting that god told Adam about good and evil before Genesis 3:6, then you are adding to god's word.

 

Be warned!

 

Now, please answer my question.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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@pittsburghjoe, I remind you that your account is still restricted and your posts are subject to approval by the moderation team.  Posts which respond directly to the subject at hand will be allowed.  Posts that delve into particle vector wave bullshit, unsubstantiated claims, assumptions not in evidence, or any other unrelated tangent will not be tolerated.  You will not turn this thread into another 20 page monument to your own circular reasoning.  

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I'm not getting why it matters for Adam to know what evil is? All Adam needed to know was that he would die and to not touch it.

They already knew what good was from living in it.

Knowing evil is what cut them off from God's Kingdom. It is what this physical reality represents.

 

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1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said:

...

Knowing evil is what cut them off from God's Kingdom. It is what this physical reality represents.

 

 

 

Again, human romanticizing of a simple truth to justify your own opinion and emotional belief.

 

This physical reality doesn't 'represent' anything. It just is.

 

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9 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

They already knew what good was from living in it.

 

No. It is impossible to know what good is if you don't know what its opposite is. 

 

But the point really is, it's just a story, allegory, a myth imagining an early, unobserved and unrecorded time.

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2 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

 

Again, human romanticizing of a simple truth to justify your own opinion and emotional belief.

 

This physical reality doesn't 'represent' anything. It just is.

 

 

What good is a test of character if you know, for sure, you are being tested for character?

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1 minute ago, florduh said:

No. It is impossible to know what good is if you don't know what its opposite is...

 

 

In 5-4-3-2-1 seconds Joe will reply that you have discovered a truth here... that God had to enable us to experience evil so we could know "good".

 

It's the whole "God didn't want robots, so..."

Same reasoning.

 

As if the same God who created the sun, the moon, and duckbill platypus couldn't create a species of anthros who had the nature desired by God for his pleasure, without the "free will" component of their nature causing evil.

 

It all distills down to" free will = evil".

God made it to be that way, but he takes no responsibility for the outcome.

That part is on we poor flawed, hapless humans.

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

What good is a test of character if you know, for sure, you are being tested for character?

 

Are you serious?

Didn't get much sleep last night either, did you?

 

My 'character' has been tested, at times and in ways I was well aware that it was being tested.

Sometimes I failed, other times I succeeded.

 

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1 hour ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Are you serious?

Didn't get much sleep last night either, did you?

 

My 'character' has been tested, at times and in ways I was well aware that it was being tested.

Sometimes I failed, other times I succeeded.

 

 

Serious about what this place is? Very. Character is about whose side you are on.

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1 hour ago, alreadyGone said:

 

In 5-4-3-2-1 seconds Joe will reply that you have discovered a truth here... that God had to enable us to experience evil so we could know "good".

 

It's the whole "God didn't want robots, so..."

Same reasoning.

 

As if the same God who created the sun, the moon, and duckbill platypus couldn't create a species of anthros who had the nature desired by God for his pleasure, without the "free will" component of their nature causing evil.

 

It all distills down to" free will = evil".

God made it to be that way, but he takes no responsibility for the outcome.

That part is on we poor flawed, hapless humans.

 

 

 

 

 

We are made in God's image, free will and eternal life goes with it. We are being tested to see if we end up in order (peace) or disorder (sin) for eternity. This fallen reality has a false sense of balance. God doesn't want to have anything to do with sin after this is over. We will ride off into the sunset of infinity.

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2 hours ago, pittsburghjoe said:

I'm not getting why it matters for Adam to know what evil is? All Adam needed to know was that he would die and to not touch it.

They already knew what good was from living in it.

Knowing evil is what cut them off from God's Kingdom. It is what this physical reality represents.

 

 

It matters Joe, because of something you said.  Twice.

 

Posted Monday at 03:01 AM

He didn't want robots ..if humans always end up falling, this all was necessary.

 

Posted Monday at 04:11 AM

God is all about Love. Do you think Love with robots is meaningful?

 

If Adam didn't understand the command god gave him (do not eat from the tree) and didn't understand what the penalty was for his disobedience (death) then how can Adam be making a proper choice of his own free will?

 

You said it yourself, Joe.

 

Robots don't make proper choices from their free will.

 

They just obey without understanding why.

 

Is that what Adam should have done?

 

Just obeyed god like a robot, without understanding what he was choosing and why?

 

Please answer.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

What good is a test of character if you know, for sure, you are being tested for character?

 

If Adam was just supposed to obey god like a robot, how is that a test of character?

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31 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

Serious about what this place is? Very. Character is about whose side you are on.

 

And just how could Adam show which side he was on when he didn't understand either side?

 

He had no knowledge of good and evil, remember?

 

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@pittsburghjoe I am going to comment on a couple of things, not to antagonize you, but to help you get a better context of the intent of this site, your dialogue, etc.

 

1. First and foremost, Ex-Christian was developed as a place where those who are falling out of faith have to go to hear the testimonies and ask questions of other people who were in their same predicament. I get the impression you think everyone here is just a bunch of God-haters for no apparent reason other than the typical Christian tropes, i.e., we want to sin, we hate God, we were hurt, etc. Yeah, some people were hurt by the church and is left a bad taste in their mouth. For the most part, the individuals you are conversing with were full blown Christians, including myself. I am an all in kind of person. I lived Christianity through and through until the doctrine and belief did not match the evidence of reality. I no longer could maintain the cognitive dissonance of believing the Bible as "God's Word," the evidence in special revelation (Bible) and natural revelation (nature) no longer appeased my intellect. I did my own studying, and I came to this website because I was, and still am, a truth seeker. I want to remove as many false things as possible from the reality around us, even if they are uncomfortable truths.

 

2. On this website, there are some of us willing to entertain the apologetics of Christians who think they can somehow conjure the evidence to believe the general proposition that Christianity is true; that is specifically the purpose of the Lion's Den. Where things are getting off course is that you are dodging questions, such as Walter put forth. The issue everyone is taking with this is because you are making a claim, yet you are unable to argue that claim from a reasonable or evidence based position. You are literally making assertions for which there is no evidence, and personally, I think this is where you do not understand where we are coming from. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the veracity of your claims. You have a hypothesis, and we are asking you to step through a process of how your propositions lead to the correct conclusion. It is a way of thinking, critical thinking. Just making claims about possibilities of what may be true, does no one any justice of figuring out what is true, that is, what comports to reality. You are using a method to assert something as fact for which you have no idea is fact, and you would dismiss those in other religions who were using the methods you are using. I could easily start claiming that Islam is the one true religion, then make one claim after another how the Quran, in of itself, it true. Mohammad was his prophet and the rest that follows. You would dismiss this claim because there is no evidence to demonstrate the veracity the specific proposition, Islam is true.

 

Your claim that Christianity is true is more difficult to demonstrate than I own a nuclear missile. Imagine the kind of evidence I would have to put forth for you to believe I own a nuclear missile. The general proposition is true, we know nuclear missiles exist and that someone has them, but for average Joe like me, we do not own nuclear missiles. 

 

Now think about what you are saying. We cannot even establish the general proposition there is a God - however we would define that, let alone all of the specific propositions that would follow to demonstrate the veracity of Christianity. What everyone here disagrees with is how you are approaching your claims.

 

I recommend the following book:

 

Why I am Not a Christian  - by Dr. Richard Carrier

 

I also recommend you familiarize yourself with logical fallacies and how to construct a syllogism.

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"In God's image"...

I know the Bible declares it so..

What does that mean, actually?

 

Physically?  How would anyone know?

No man has seen God.

 

Spiritually?

Well that would just destroy your entire belief-system, would it not?

 

Mentally?

The bible declares that no man can know the mind of God.

 

Is there some other realm in which we might be 'fashioned' in the image of anything other than what we are?

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Joe - what you are missing from Walter is saying is that fundamentally speaking, Adam could not have even known was disobedience was. It was completely foreign to him. You are being anachronistic and projecting how humans think now to Adam. According to the Bible, Adam did not think like that. He had no concept of "bad," "disobedience," etc. If evil is deviating from God's will, then Adam had no clue what that was until later in Genesis. Which tells me that is was a construct of a human author who had a plot gap in their story.

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1 minute ago, WalterP said:

 

And just how could Adam show which side he was on when he didn't understand either side?

 

He had no knowledge of good and evil, remember?

 

 

You are confusing our challenge to Adam and Eve's. It isn't the same exact thing. We already know what evil is. We are choosing between being able to Sin and pushing it away with Jesus. Adam's choice was between following God or Satan.

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Genesis was likely written around 3rd century BCE if memory serves me right. It is a creation myth story that follows the same kind of plot line as other ancient near-east creation myths. Why you think this one is the real deal, and not the others, I am curious to know.

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2 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

You are confusing our challenge to Adam and Eve's. It isn't the same exact thing. We already know what evil is. We are choosing between being able to Sin and pushing it away with Jesus. Adam's choice was between following God or Satan.

 

There is nothing in Genesis to allude the serpent was Satan. That is a rather modern interpretation of Christians. It merely stated the serpent was a clever and cunning wild animal. You are reading theology into the Bible, not out of it.

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1 minute ago, Hierophant said:

 

There is nothing in Genesis to allude the serpent was Satan. That is a rather modern interpretation of Christians. It merely stated the serpent was a clever and cunning wild animal. You are reading theology into the Bible, not out of it.

 

Angel sin isn't physical. The tree itself was the link to this fallen reality. It was linked of Satan's sin. Satan goes many names ..it's always the same high ranking angel that fell.

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3 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

Angel sin isn't physical. The tree itself was the link to this fallen reality. It was linked of Satan's sin. Satan goes many names ..it's always the same high ranking angel that fell.

 

You do not know your Bible. Again - you are making claims for which you can provide no evidence. "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" ~ a little Carl Sagan to brighten your day.

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11 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

Joe - what you are missing from Walter is saying is that fundamentally speaking, Adam could not have even known was disobedience was. It was completely foreign to him. You are being anachronistic and projecting how humans think now to Adam. According to the Bible, Adam did not think like that. He had no concept of "bad," "disobedience," etc. If evil is deviating from God's will, then Adam had no clue what that was until later in Genesis. Which tells me that is was a construct of a human author who had a plot gap in their story.

 

Adam wasn't an idiot, he is in God's image. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what NOT doing what God said, is.

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1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

Angel sin isn't physical. The tree itself was the link to this fallen reality. It was linked of Satan's sin. Satan goes many names ..it's always the same high ranking angel that fell.

 

Satan did not get promoted to head knucklehead until the inter-testament period. Go back and read the Bible and see if you are clever enough to pick up the theme that Satan was not a noun until much later in Jewish/Christian theology. When the satan, which literally means accuser, is introduced in the Bible, he acts as God's agent. He goes around testing people to see if they measure up. See Job. Again, you are reading centuries of Jewish and Christian thought into the Bible.

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