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6 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

No he wasn't blind.

 

Joe,

 

You agreed that god made Adam without any knowledge of either good or evil.

 

Do you still agree with that?

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12 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Joe,

 

You agreed that god made Adam without any knowledge of either good or evil.

 

Do you still agree with that?

 

He didn't have knowledge of both. If you are made of good, you know what it is.

You're not getting that the knowledge isn't about good or evil ..it is about judging between the two.

 

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16 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

He didn't have knowledge of both. If you are made of good, you know what it is.

You're not getting that the knowledge isn't about good or evil ..it is about judging between the two.

 

 

How could Adam know he was made good when god made him?

 

Adam didn't have the knowledge of good and evil in him at that moment.

 

You've agreed to that, Joe.

 

Adam only gained that knowledge later on, after he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

You've agreed to that too, Joe.

 

Adam couldn't judge between good and evil when god made him.

 

He wasn't made with the knowledge of either one.

 

You've agreed to that too, Joe.

 

Adam could only judge between good and evil later on, after he ate the fruit. 

 

So, please tell me how Adam could have known he was good before he ate the fruit, Joe?

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Just now, WalterP said:

 

How could Adam know he was made good when god made him?

 

Adam didn't have the knowledge of good and evil in him at that moment.

 

You've agreed to that, Joe.

 

Adam only gained that knowledge later on, after he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

You've agreed to that too, Joe.

 

Adam couldn't judge between good and evil when god made him.

 

He wasn't made with the knowledge of either one.

 

You've agreed to that too, Joe.

 

Adam could only judge between good and evil later on, after he ate the fruit. 

 

So, please tell me how Adam could have known he was good before he ate the fruit, Joe?

 

He didn't need to be able to judge between the two because he knew not to touch it. If he did know beforehand we wouldn't have Free Will.

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Joe,

 

In case you're struggling, I'll re-post the timeline of what happened in the garden of Eden.

 

Then you'll be able to check and see just when Adam and Eve gained their knowledge of good and evil.

 

Here you are.

 

TIMELINE

 

2: 15.  God puts Adam into the garden of Eden.

 

2:16 & 17. God commands Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because on that day he will die.

 

2:22. God makes Eve out of Adam’s rib.

 

3:6. Eve takes and eats the fruit, gives some to Adam, who also eats it.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

3:7. Then their eyes were opened, and they knew good and evil.

 

3:11. God discovers that Adam and Eve have disobeyed him.

 

3:16. God curses Eve.

 

3:17. God curses Adam.

 

3:22. God says, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

 

 

This timeline is divided into two halves.  Above the line, neither Adam nor Eve know what good and evil is.  Below the line, they both know.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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29 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Joe,

 

In case you're struggling, I'll re-post the timeline of what happened in the garden of Eden.

 

Then you'll be able to check and see just when Adam and Eve gained their knowledge of good and evil.

 

Here you are.

 

TIMELINE

 

2: 15.  God puts Adam into the garden of Eden.

 

2:16 & 17. God commands Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because on that day he will die.

 

2:22. God makes Eve out of Adam’s rib.

 

3:6. Eve takes and eats the fruit, gives some to Adam, who also eats it.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

3:7. Then their eyes were opened, and they knew good and evil.

 

3:11. God discovers that Adam and Eve have disobeyed him.

 

3:16. God curses Eve.

 

3:17. God curses Adam.

 

3:22. God says, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

 

 

This timeline is divided into two halves.  Above the line, neither Adam nor Eve know what good and evil is.  Below the line, they both know.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

He didn't know how to judge between the two so the tree looked normal to him.

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20 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

He didn't know how to judge between the two so the tree looked normal to him.

Damn, joe.  Dig that hole much deeper, they gonna start speaking Chinese at ya.

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57 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Joe,

 

In case you're struggling, I'll re-post the timeline of what happened in the garden of Eden.

 

Then you'll be able to check and see just when Adam and Eve gained their knowledge of good and evil.

 

Here you are.

 

TIMELINE

 

2: 15.  God puts Adam into the garden of Eden.

 

2:16 & 17. God commands Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because on that day he will die.

 

2:22. God makes Eve out of Adam’s rib.

 

3:6. Eve takes and eats the fruit, gives some to Adam, who also eats it.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

3:7. Then their eyes were opened, and they knew good and evil.

 

3:11. God discovers that Adam and Eve have disobeyed him.

 

3:16. God curses Eve.

 

3:17. God curses Adam.

 

3:22. God says, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

 

 

This timeline is divided into two halves.  Above the line, neither Adam nor Eve know what good and evil is.  Below the line, they both know.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Could it have been a physical tree in the Garden which wasn't physical? God clearly told us not to touch it either way.

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1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

He didn't need to be able to judge between the two because he knew not to touch it. If he did know beforehand we wouldn't have Free Will.

 

Yes, he knew not to touch it without knowing why he wasn't to touch it.

 

So, he wasn't exercising any free will, he was just blindly obeying like a robot.

 

And you're on record as saying that god doesn't want a relationship with robots.

 

So why did god make Adam like a robot, able to obey but unable to know why?

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2 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Yes, he knew not to touch it without knowing why he wasn't to touch it.

 

So, he wasn't exercising any free will, he was just blindly obeying like a robot.

 

And you're on record as saying that god doesn't want a relationship with robots.

 

So why did god make Adam like a robot, able to obey but unable to know why?

 

::sigh::

You are saying you would have preferred we were sent directly to this fallen reality.

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44 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

He didn't know how to judge between the two so the tree looked normal to him.

 

Yes, Joe.

 

Because Adam couldn't judge between good and evil, he couldn't judge between god and Satan.

 

And the tree of the knowledge of good and evil looked exactly the same as all the other trees - pleasing to the eye and good for food.

 

The only thing stopping Adam from eating from it was his obedience to god's command not to eat from it.

 

And to obey that command meant that Adam had to be just like a robot.

 

To blindly obey the command without understanding it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, WalterP said:

 

Yes, Joe.

 

Because Adam couldn't judge between good and evil, he couldn't judge between god and Satan.

 

And the tree of the knowledge of good and evil looked exactly the same as all the other trees - pleasing to the eye and good for food.

 

The only thing stopping Adam from eating from it was his obedience to god's command not to eat from it.

 

And to obey that command meant that Adam had to be just like a robot.

 

To blindly obey the command without understanding it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We obviously had the choice available. God was trying to prevent us form this BS cesspool. But we didn't listen.

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8 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

We obviously had the choice available. God was trying to prevent us form this BS cesspool. But we didn't listen.

 

I think you are hung up on some principle here. What is to say that if there is a God, that this God really wants what is best for us? I do not think the Bible supports that idea. IMO, people who claim God did not want this for us, or God does not want people to starve to death, or insert any idea on suffering and misery are merely projecting an idea of what they hope is out there. The Bible does not support this idea of a God who is nothing more than a Mr. Roger with magical powers. The God of the Bible will let atrocious, blood curling things happen and not lose any sleep over it.

 

Let me put it to you this way, if at the end of the day, all you are is afraid of hell, then the character of the God who has the power over hell should not matter. It can be reduced to, might makes right; and you are going to obey this God no matter how outlandish or uncaring this God is because you are ultimately afraid of hell.

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51 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

::sigh::

You are saying you would have preferred we were sent directly to this fallen reality.

 

No.

 

This not my preference, this is what the Bible says, Joe. 

 

It says that god didn't give Adam the understanding of good and evil that he needed to make a free-willed choice.

 

You've agreed with this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

We obviously had the choice available. God was trying to prevent us form this BS cesspool. But we didn't listen.

 

This isn't about our choice, Joe.

 

It's about Adam's non-choice, before he ate the fruit and gained the ability to make a proper choice.

 

Obeying without understanding, like a robot, isn't making a proper choice.

 

Robots don't choose.

 

They just obey without understanding.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said:

So having the choice to disobey isn't Free Will to you?

 

Not if I don't understand what it is I'm being asking to choose between.  No.

 

That's a non-choice.

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1 minute ago, WalterP said:

 

Not if I don't understand what it is I'm being asking to choose between.  No.

 

That's a non-choice.

 

You're not getting the catch 22 ..you did know what evil was you would be sent here automatically.

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I bet this is where we start revolving in circles 🙂

 

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4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I bet this is where we start revolving in circles 🙂

 

You should check out the other threads ol' joe has been involved in.  More circles than pi has decimal places.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You should check out the other threads ol' joe has been involved in.  More circles than pi has decimal places.

That's why he got himself put on restriction. 

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1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

I bet this is where we start revolving in circles 🙂

 

 

Christians tend to start the word salad, mental gymnastics, deflection, avoidance when they realize God provided Adam with a uninformed free-will choice, which when the choice was made would have provided Adam with the information he needed to make an informed choice. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Christians tend to start the word salad, mental gymnastics, deflection, avoidance when they realize God provided Adam with a uninformed free-will choice, which when the choice was made would have provided Adam with the information he needed to make an informed choice. 

 

 

 

And this with us granting the Genesis creation myth for the sake of argument. 

 

Speaking of, Joe - do you adhere to Young Earth Creationism?

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25 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

And this with us granting the Genesis creation myth for the sake of argument. 

 

Speaking of, Joe - do you adhere to Young Earth Creationism?

 

I'm more about the end. This fallen reality is Babylon ..Babylon has fallen ..and this is the start to the end.

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