Please join me here, PittsburghJoe.

[pittsburghjoe]

3 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

Joe - what does tohu and bohu mean in Hebrew?

 

I am going to walk the dog for you on this one and demonstrate how you are forcing an interpretation into the text. I have to head into the office for a bit, but when I get back, I hope you will answer my question. It is very important you take the time to look up these words and then I am going to explain some ancient theology to you.

 

describes the condition of the earth (eretz) immediately before the creation of light in Genesis 1:3.

 

translation of the phrase is "without form, and void",

 

Sound like a vector field of waves to me.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

23 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

The double slit experiment

We have nearly 60 pages of this double slit bullshit in other threads.  If people care to read it, they're more than welcome to go there.  Find a new song and dance, now, son.

[Hierophant]

Before I leave, I will say this. There are some who translate to mean that YHWH created order out of chaos, i.e., space was not empty and contained matter and energy. Then YHWH used the preexisting disorder to create order. For example, the Spirit (also translated as "wind") moved over the waters, implying that something already existed before YHWH bringing order from disorder; therefore, to argue Satan was the cause of disorder is out of sequence with the text. Again, the idea that Satan was in the Garden of Eden is foreign to Genesis.

 

Ex-C members: I have to head to the office and will be missing for a bit. I am sure plenty of you are on track with what I am trying to explain to Joe - if you want to pick it up, feel free. I shall return, shortly. In Bible speak that could mean a few thousand years.

[pittsburghjoe]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We have nearly 60 pages of this double slit bullshit in other threads.  If people care to read it, they're more than welcome to go there.  Find a new song and dance, now, son.

 

The one you closed ..the one I can not add new ideas to?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

The one you closed ..the one I can not add new ideas to?

You have new ideas?

[WalterP]

13 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

That's right, Joe.

 

Adam wasn't human in the sense that you and I are human.

 

God made him incomplete, without a knowledge of good and evil.

 

You've agreed that god did this.

 

Therefore, you've also agreed that god made Adam incomplete.

 

Would you like me to prove this from scripture?

 

Here's the proof, Joe.

 

Genesis 1 : 27

 

So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

 

It's usually assumed by Christians that this means god made mankind (Adam and Eve) as complete humans.

 

That is, able to make moral choices of their own free will.

 

But this isn't so.

 

Genesis 3 : 22

 

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Scripture tells us that god knows both good and evil.

 

But god made Adam and Eve WITHOUT the ability to know good from evil.

 

They had no moral compass and so couldn't make moral choices of their own free will.

 

So, they were NOT made in god's image when it came to moral awareness.

 

And the garden of Eden was a test of their moral choice, not their blind obedience.

 

There's no moral choice in choosing to obey without understanding.

 

 

Joe, because you've agreed that god made Adam and Eve without knowledge of good and evil you've also effectively agreed that he made them incomplete and unable to make moral choices.

 

Do you agree that Adam and Eve couldn't make moral choices of their own free will?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pittsburghjoe]

2 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

Here's the proof, Joe.

 

Genesis 1 : 27

 

So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

 

It's usually assumed by Christians that this means god made mankind (Adam and Eve) as complete humans.

 

That is, able to make moral choices of their own free will.

 

But this isn't so.

 

Genesis 3 : 22

 

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

Scripture tells us that god knows both good and evil.

 

But god made Adam and Eve WITHOUT the ability to know good from evil.

 

They had no moral compass and so couldn't make moral choices of their own free will.

 

So, they were NOT made in god's image when it came to moral awareness.

 

And the garden of Eden was a test of their moral choice, not their blind obedience.

 

There's no moral choice in choosing to obey without understanding.

 

 

Joe, because you've agreed that god made Adam and Eve without knowledge of good and evil you've also effectively agreed that he made them incomplete and unable to make moral choices.

 

Do you agree that Adam and Eve couldn't make moral choices of their own free will?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You don't need a tree of life when you are not physical.

[pittsburghjoe]

12 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

Before I leave, I will say this. There are some who translate to mean that YHWH created order out of chaos, i.e., space was not empty and contained matter and energy. Then YHWH used the preexisting disorder to create order. For example, the Spirit (also translated as "wind") moved over the waters, implying that something already existed before YHWH bringing order from disorder; therefore, to argue Satan was the cause of disorder is out of sequence with the text. Again, the idea that Satan was in the Garden of Eden is foreign to Genesis.

 

Ex-C members: I have to head to the office and will be missing for a bit. I am sure plenty of you are on track with what I am trying to explain to Joe - if you want to pick it up, feel free. I shall return, shortly. In Bible speak that could mean a few thousand years.

 

Satan doesn't create anything. You can't have disorder without there being order first.

 

[Hierophant]

9 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

You don't need a tree of life when you are not physical.

 

Adam was made from dirt, Eve from a rib. Those are physical traits. Joe - you are forcing an interpretation into the Bible. You are completely off basis and need to rework your hypothesis. You have not met the burden of proof to warrant belief in your claim.

 

Adam was a Golem:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem

[Hierophant]

6 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

Satan doesn't create anything. You can't have disorder without there being order first.

 

 

False. Complete assumption to massage your pet theory of theology. Unless you have something to present to cosmology for peer review, this statement is merely that, a statement. It does not meet the burden of proof to warrant belief.

[pittsburghjoe]

6 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

Adam was made from dirt, Eve from a rib. Those are physical traits. Joe - you are forcing an interpretation into the Bible. You are completely off basis and need to rework your hypothesis. You have not met the burden of proof to warrant belief in your claim.

 

Adam was a Golem:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem

 

Umm, yeah, we were not physical in the garden ..and we won't be after death.

[Hierophant]

Joe - you are dead wrong and unwilling to admit it. Feel free to enjoy your pet belief, but you have not provided any sufficient evidence to support your claim.

[pittsburghjoe]

2 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

Joe - you are dead wrong and unwilling to admit it. Feel free to enjoy your pet belief, but you have not provided any sufficient evidence to support your claim.

 

Maybe you overlooked the part where I said physicality breaks us away form wholeness. It allows us to sin.

[Hierophant]

No, I didn't miss it

[alreadyGone]

Joe,

What you wish to be so, you believe.

 

I'll ask you again.... on what basis do you assert these things to be fact?

There was no one there to record the event.

 

Your argument then is:

Why God? Because the Bible.

Why the Bible? Because God.

 

rinse, repeat.

[pittsburghjoe]

1 minute ago, alreadyGone said:

Joe,

What you wish to be so, you believe.

 

"Adam was made from dirt..." 

The human body is 60% water.

 

If Eve was made from a rib, why then were all subsequent female humans born of another human female?

 

I'll ask you again.... on what basis do you assert these things to be fact?

There was no one there to record the event.

 

Your argument then is:

Why God? Because the Bible.

Why the Bible? Because God.

 

rinse, repeat.

 

We are made of waves right now

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/08/19/in-quantum-physics-even-humans-act-as-waves/?sh=732969f3312c

 

But decoherent ones. Decoherence causes physicality. We were coherent waves before original sin.

[alreadyGone]

33 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

...physicality breaks us away form wholeness. It allows us to sin.

 

How do you look yourself in the mirror after posting such meaningless romanticized hyperbolic silliness?

 

 

[Hierophant]

43 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

We are made of waves right now

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/08/19/in-quantum-physics-even-humans-act-as-waves/?sh=732969f3312c

 

But decoherent ones. Decoherence causes physicality. We were coherent waves before original sin.

 

There is no reason to correlate the two. You are making a giant leap in logic. 

[pittsburghjoe]

6 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

There is no reason to correlate the two. You are making a giant leap in logic. 

 

Because you don't want it to? I don't get it. You already know about wave-particle duality ..why not apply it to the beginning?

[alreadyGone]

  

15 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

There is no reason to correlate the two. You are making a giant leap in logic. 

 

Logic?

[WalterP]

1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

You don't need a tree of life when you are not physical.

 

You didn't answer my question, Joe.

 

Here it is again.

 

Please answer it.

 

Do you agree that Adam and Eve couldn't make moral choices of their own free will?

 

 

[pittsburghjoe]

3 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

You didn't answer my question, Joe.

 

Here it is again.

 

Please answer it.

 

Do you agree that Adam and Eve couldn't make moral choices of their own free will?

 

 

 

The moral choice was to disobey God.

[WalterP]

1 minute ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

The moral choice was to disobey God.

 

That's not an answer to the question you were asked, Joe.

 

Here is the question again.

 

Do you agree that Adam and Eve couldn't make moral choices of their own free will?

 

You need to respond with a Yes or a No.

 

Please answer.

 

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

Maybe you overlooked the part where I said physicality breaks us away form wholeness. It allows us to sin.

 

You said it, but we do not accept it because there is absolutely no credible evidence to support your claim.  You're so in love with your own silly hypothesis that you think that we should just take your word for it.

 

Not. Gonna. Happen.

 

Not here.

 

If you can't back up your claims, they're worthless.

[pittsburghjoe]

22 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

You said it, but we do not accept it because there is absolutely no credible evidence to support your claim.  You're so in love with your own silly hypothesis that you think that we should just take your word for it.

 

Not. Gonna. Happen.

 

Not here.

 

If you can't back up your claims, they're worthless.

 

Please consider what it means to be able to do these things: pride, vanity, greed, lust, ego. Do those things sound possible if we were all connected?