Please join me here, PittsburghJoe.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@pittsburghjoe, your account restriction has been lifted, and you can once again post.  However, your posts are still subject to moderation; and I remind you that assumptions, assertions, misappropriation of sound scientific principles, or lamentations over the restrictions which you earned for yourself, will not be tolerated.

[florduh]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@pittsburghjoe, your account restriction has been lifted, and you can once again post.  However, your posts are still subject to moderation; and I remind you that assumptions, assertions, misappropriation of sound scientific principles, or lamentations over the restrictions which you earned for yourself, will not be tolerated.

Thank doG! That's one less constantly recurring email irritation!

[WalterP]

Thank you for the kind thought, RedneckProf! 

 

 

 

I note that there a Guest looked in on this thread just 1 minute ago.

 

Perhaps Joe is wising up to the way the Who's Online facility works.

 

If that's you Joe, I'm here and we can pick up exactly where we left off yesterday.

 

Here's my question to you.

 

Did god make Adam with a knowledge of both good and evil?

 

Please answer.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[WalterP]

Oh btw, Joe.

 

If I read the Moderators correctly, they won't be caught out by you waiting a while and then popping up again.

 

Whatever new thread you start up will be locked asap.

 

If you start posting in an existing thread, they'll delete your content.

 

The only place you will be able to do anything is right here, with me, under their watchful gaze.

 

And guess what I'll be asking you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[florduh]

7 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Oh btw, Joe.

 

If I read the Moderators correctly, they won't be caught out by you waiting a while and then popping up again.

 

Whatever new thread you start up will be locked asap.

 

If you start posting in an existing thread, they'll delete your content.

 

The only place you will be able to do anything is right here, with me, under their watchful gaze.

 

And guess what I'll be asking you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joe, now be a good sport and answer the nice man's question. My finger is poised, has been poised, on the Big Red Button of Doom and only the other mods can hold me back.

[LogicalFallacy]

Quick Joe. I'm holding back the four winds of war, but I can't hold forever. 

 

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.

 

Revelations, such an awesome book.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Can't hold back a Florduh hurricane forever, joe.

[WalterP]

Joe,

 

In case you think that all the Moderators are located in the US Joe, let me correct you.

 

They aren't.

 

The Moderator coverage of Ex-C is global and 24/7.

 

So, you can't sneak in when the Americas are asleep, thinking that you'll have a few hours to yourself.

 

If you register under a new name, any mention of scalars, vectors or decoherence will give you away.

 

And you'll end up right back here - where we can resume our Q & A session.

 

Or you'll just get banned, there and then.

 

But you can avoid all that pain by simply answering my question.

 

Did god make Adam with a knowledge of both good and evil?

 

Please answer.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

Joe's answer to the yes or no question, seems to be "no." 

 

 

@pittsburghjoe has answered "no" to the question of: 

 

5 hours ago, WalterP said:

Here's my question to you.

 

Did god make Adam with a knowledge of both good and evil?

 

Please answer.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

And his reasoning for answering "no" is because he reasons that god couldn't have made Adam with a knowledge of evil because it would have sent Adam straight into this fallen reality. 

 

@WalterP

 

That's about the closest thing to answering your question yet. I'd say you're clear to proceed to the next step now. 

[sdelsolray]

Joe remains quite confused.

[Joshpantera]

36 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Joe remains quite confused.

 

For sure. 

 

So god couldn't make Adam with a knowledge of both good and 'evil' because it would send humanity to this fallen reality. 

 

Even though god, being "all-knowing", already knew before making Adam that Adam WOULD chose to eat the forbidden fruit given the option, which, would specifically 'send humanity to this fallen reality.' 

 

I don't see any scenario on the horizon where this so-called fallen reality WASN'T already determined in advance of it happening (according to the myth of course). It couldn't have not happened, if it was already known that it WOULD happen. It's more the case of the illusion of a freewill choice in a deterministic reality that was already known in advance. It couldn't have gone any other way than the way in which it was foreseen. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

People see what they believe.

[Hierophant]

Joe - It seems that you have an underlying principle or axiom about YHWH that you are committed to, i.e., God is all loving or is good as we understand good. Is it possible that if there is a God, he does not really have our best interest at heart?

 

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7.

 

Plenty of humans in the past worshiped gods that were not entirely nice. Would you have a problem believing/serving God if he was not all loving?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I don't think Joe's coming back, y'all.  I suspect he's done r-u-n-n-o-f-t.  He seemed a little bit upset about the restrictions he brought upon himself after ignoring multiple warnings.  Bless his heart.

[WalterP]

Firstly, my thanks to the RedneckProf for sending me Joe's response.

 

I'm sorry that I haven't returned to this thread sooner, but life got in the way.

 

In this case, the discovery of a leaking garage roof and the ensuing rush to check the electrics for moisture, to move furniture that was stored there and then to try and get a builder to help us.

 

Gaaaahh!!!

 

Anyway, here I am.

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

....  Bless his heart.

Indeed.

 

[Hierophant]

10 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Firstly, my thanks to the RedneckProf for sending me Joe's response.

 

I'm sorry that I haven't returned to this thread sooner, but life got in the way.

 

In this case, the discovery of a leaking garage roof and the ensuing rush to check the electrics for moisture, to move furniture that was stored there and then to try and get a builder to help us.

 

Gaaaahh!!!

 

Anyway, here I am.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to hear that. I had a leak in my living room and basement bathroom last year. I wasn't thrilled about it.

[WalterP]

Ok, so what about Joe's reply?

 

Well, once again he dodged the question.

 

'Did god make Adam with a knowledge of both good and evil?'

 

None of what Joe wrote deals with HOW god made Adam.

 

This is the key issue because if Adam was unable to recognize and understand good, then on what basis should he have chosen god over Satan?

 

I'm not disputing that in the text of Genesis god is described as good and everything he makes is good.

 

No.  The goodness surrounding Adam isn't the issue.

 

His inability to recognize the good is.

 

The Bible says that god made Adam unable to recognize or understand either good or evil.

 

Which means that Adam could not recognize that god was good.

 

His ability to recognize and understand good and evil (wisdom) came to him only after he ate the fruit.

 

This is the point that I think Joe recognized would destroy his faith.

 

That god withheld from Adam the one thing he needed to make a proper choice between good and evil. 

 

The ability to recognize and understand what good and evil were.

 

So Joe refused to give the biblically correct answer.

 

Which is...

 

No, god made Adam without any knowledge of good or evil.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Hierophant]

5 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Ok, so what about Joe's reply?

 

Well, once again he dodged the question.

 

'Did god make Adam with a knowledge of both good and evil?'

 

None of what Joe wrote deals with HOW god made Adam.

 

This is the key issue because if Adam was unable to recognize and understand good, then on what basis should he have chosen god over Satan?

 

I'm not disputing that in the text of Genesis god is described as good and everything he makes is good.

 

No.  The goodness surrounding Adam isn't the issue.

 

His inability to recognize the good is.

 

The Bible says that god made Adam unable to recognize or understand either good or evil.

 

Which means that Adam could not recognize that god was good.

 

His ability to recognize and understand good and evil (wisdom) came to him only after he ate the fruit.

 

This is the point that I think Joe recognized would destroy his faith.

 

That god withheld from Adam the one thing he needed to make a proper choice between good and evil. 

 

The ability to recognize and understand what good and evil were.

 

So Joe refused to give the biblically correct answer.

 

Which is...

 

No, god made Adam without any knowledge of good or evil.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

I completely agree. I think Joe wants to take the position that Adam was created in a state of goodness, and was operating within that domain by default; but a key point would be that he seemingly lacked the capacity to know that making a wrong choice was sinful, evil, or whatever you want to call it. It is difficult to describe in words, but even if God told Adam not to eat or touch the fruit, would he even comprehend what that meant if he did not have knowledge of good or evil? As I mentioned before, it is a gap in the logic of the story.

[WalterP]

Or let's put it another way.

 

Do you command a child born blind not to eat the red apple and then get upset when they can't tell the difference between red apples and green apples?

 

And then do you curse the child and all of its descendants with death for not making the right choice?

 

Especially when you knew all along that they would make the wrong choice?

 

Think about it.

[Hierophant]

Just now, WalterP said:

Or let's put it another way.

 

Do you command a child born blind not to eat the red apple and then get upset when they can't tell the difference between red apples and green apples?

 

And then do you curse the child and all of its descendants with death for not making the right choice?

 

Especially when you knew all along that they would make the wrong choice?

 

Think about it.

 

Good analogy.

[WalterP]

1 minute ago, Hierophant said:

 

I completely agree. I think Joe wants to take the position that Adam was created in a state of goodness, and was operating within that domain by default; but a key point would be that he seemingly lacked the capacity to know that making a wrong choice was sinful, evil, or whatever you want to call it. It is difficult to describe in words, but even if God told Adam not to eat or touch the fruit, would he even comprehend what that meant if he did not have knowledge of good or evil? As I mentioned before, it is a gap in the logic of the story.

 

True, Hierophant.

 

But there's a second logic gap.

 

God warned Adam that on the day he ate the fruit he would die.

 

What's death?

 

Nothing ever died in the Garden of Eden.

 

Death didn't exist until after god inflicted it upon Adam and Eve (and all their uninvolved descendants).

 

So how could the innocent Adam have known what god's death penalty was?

 

And what's the point of god giving Adam a warning he couldn't understand?

 

That's TWO things Adam couldn't understand in ONE command from god.

 

Sound fair?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[WalterP]

23 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

Good analogy.

 

Ummm.... no.

 

On second thoughts Hierophant, its a flawed analogy.

 

A child can be born blind through an accident of birth.

 

But what god didn't do for Adam is much, much worse.

 

No.  The analogy needs changing.  Like this.

 

 

Do you genetically manipulate your child so that they are born blind and then command them not to eat the red apple and then get upset when they can't tell the difference between red apples and green apples?

 

And then do you curse the child and all of its descendants with death for not making the right choice?

 

Especially when you knew all along that they would make the wrong choice?

 

Think about it.

 

 

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, WalterP said:

Firstly, my thanks to the RedneckProf for sending me Joe's response.

 

I'm sorry that I haven't returned to this thread sooner, but life got in the way.

 

In this case, the discovery of a leaking garage roof and the ensuing rush to check the electrics for moisture, to move furniture that was stored there and then to try and get a builder to help us.

 

Gaaaahh!!!

 

Anyway, here I am.

 

 

 

 

I'll try to send some of my dry desert your way.

[midniterider]

15 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

 

Did god make Adam with a knowledge of both good and evil?

 

 

@pittsburghjoe has answered "no" to the question of: 

 

.........

 

And so Adam and Eve were ill-informed as to whether or not to eat the fruit. Eating the fruit would have given them the knowledge that it was not wise to eat the fruit.