Please join me here, PittsburghJoe.

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, WalterP said:

Or let's put it another way.

 

Do you command a child born blind not to eat the red apple and then get upset when they can't tell the difference between red apples and green apples?

 

And then do you curse the child and all of its descendants with death for not making the right choice?

 

Especially when you knew all along that they would make the wrong choice?

 

Think about it.

 

Exactly. A good 'parent' doesnt hand his child the keys to disaster. 

 

Unfortunately I think most people raised as Christian are instilled with the emotional belief aspect prior to really getting to the logical nitty gritty of bible stories. They are brainwashed to believe that God is good all the time, so when confronted with the illogical bits of the Bible in black and white they twist, turn, deflect, or avoid. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Furthermore, given that Eve had the capacity to feel pride and be motivated to act on it, and that either Adam, or Eve, or both had the capacity to lie, before eating the fruit, the implication is that god created them with the capability to do evil, without the wisdom to understand evil.  

[alreadyGone]

 

to quote from the movie "The Big Chill".... 

"You're so analytical.."

 

See guys.. you have it all wrong.

You didn't try hard enough to let Jesus into your 'heart'.

 

The true Christian just feels that it's all true.

And that should be sufficient for anyone, yes?

[alreadyGone]

55 minutes ago, midniterider said:

...

Unfortunately I think most people raised as Christian are instilled with the emotional belief aspect prior to really getting to the logical nitty gritty of bible stories. They are brainwashed to believe that God is good all the time, so when confronted with the illogical bits of the Bible in black and white they twist, turn, deflect, or avoid. 

 

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

-Winston Churchhill

[Joshpantera]

Joe, Joe, Joe. 

 

Like I said, readers who are not already familiar with this territory of thought and contemplation needed to hang in there and read all the way through. Joe wasn't going to do anything other than dig himself a deeper hole the more he tried to get out of the hole he'd already dug.

 

All-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present god directing Joe's key board into victory????

 

Apparently not!!!

 

And as to the restricted posting, Joe forced that restriction into being. He wouldn't stop running off with irrelevant red herrings instead of answering the important and specific questions that he was being asked to answer. Pages and pages of irrelevant nonsense. So we had to force an answer the question or "none shall pass," policy of debate. 

 

He's welcome to keep trying to justify himself. But he will have to do so one directly answered question at a time. No red herrings or irrelevant asides. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pittsburghjoe]

1 ) Do you think if we managed to avoid original sin that we would still not know what good is? 

 

Original sin was more than disobeying God ..it was taking on an evil perception that really got us bad. We chose to follow Satan into this fallen reality view.

 

2 ) What you should be asking is how was Satan allowed in the garden?

3 ) Did God use something that was already fallen to be the choice that allowed Free Will?

 

God doesn't create evil, so using something that was already fallen sounds about right.
Our eyes were open to Satan's perception because he was the first to cause disorder.

 

4 ) Is Satan able to be anywhere that has something fallen?

5 ) Does that mean he is connected to decoherence somehow?

6 ) Is he able to do this because he was the first to sin?

7 ) Is this how he was able to be at the Tree of Knowledge?

8 )Or was the Tree a gateway to this fallen reality where Satan could poke his head into the Garden?

[Joshpantera]

@WalterP

 

I've allowed Joe's newest post in for your consideration. And to try and provide Joe with a fair attempt at trying to debate further. 

 

But the rules still stand. 

 

 

 

[WalterP]

7 hours ago, pittsburghjoe said:

1 ) Do you think if we managed to avoid original sin that we would still not know what good is? 

 

Original sin was more than disobeying God ..it was taking on an evil perception that really got us bad. We chose to follow Satan into this fallen reality view.

 

2 ) What you should be asking is how was Satan allowed in the garden?

3 ) Did God use something that was already fallen to be the choice that allowed Free Will?

 

God doesn't create evil, so using something that was already fallen sounds about right.
Our eyes were open to Satan's perception because he was the first to cause disorder.

 

4 ) Is Satan able to be anywhere that has something fallen?

5 ) Does that mean he is connected to decoherence somehow?

6 ) Is he able to do this because he was the first to sin?

7 ) Is this how he was able to be at the Tree of Knowledge?

8 )Or was the Tree a gateway to this fallen reality where Satan could poke his head into the Garden?

 

None of this is acceptable because Joe is once again refusing to follow the instructions he was given by LogicalFallacy.

 

Posted Saturday at 09:14 PM

@pittsburghjoe We are now 7 pages in. Please answer Walter's question on page 6 directly. All of your other replies and posts will be deleted until you adequately answer his question. That means one line throwaway will not be accepted. Thanks.

 

All other members your posts will not receive replies from Joe until our friend answers Walter. This is Walter's thread and we want to se his queries answered. 

 

Joe asks eight more questions without answering mine first.

 

This is unacceptable.

 

This thread goes nowhere until Joe answers the question I've put to him over twenty times.

 

Did god make Adam with the knowledge of both good and evil?

 

Please answer Joe.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, WalterP said:

This thread goes nowhere until Joe answers the question I've put to him over twenty times.

 

Did god make Adam with the knowledge of both good and evil?

 

Please answer Joe.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

@pittsburghjoe

 

Can you please verify that your answer to the question is "no." We literally can not proceed without you verifying your answer. You basically verified it already. But it has to come as a firm "no" to satisfy Walter's request. 

 

Then Walter can proceed and answer your questions of him. 

 

 

[pittsburghjoe]

I already said no.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

9 hours ago, pittsburghjoe said:

1 ) Do you think if we managed to avoid original sin that we would still not know what good is? 

 

Original sin was more than disobeying God ..it was taking on an evil perception that really got us bad. We chose to follow Satan into this fallen reality view.

 

2 ) What you should be asking is how was Satan allowed in the garden?

3 ) Did God use something that was already fallen to be the choice that allowed Free Will?

 

God doesn't create evil, so using something that was already fallen sounds about right.
Our eyes were open to Satan's perception because he was the first to cause disorder.

 

4 ) Is Satan able to be anywhere that has something fallen?

5 ) Does that mean he is connected to decoherence somehow?

6 ) Is he able to do this because he was the first to sin?

7 ) Is this how he was able to be at the Tree of Knowledge?

8 )Or was the Tree a gateway to this fallen reality where Satan could poke his head into the Garden?

Ok. IMHO you have more of a fallen reality view than your so called "satan". But let's look at your comment. Original sin. Your saying that Adam and even being beguiled by Satan and following him is original sin. I have to say you may be wrong. Its really according to who's interpretation your drawing from. Let me ask something. What was God's first commandment? " love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind?" No its not. It was thou shalt not eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge, of good and evil. I think you would agree that if God ordered it then that was his first and only rule. It was Adam and eves law given from God. One rule. Why? Well it evolves over time just like everything else about the jews religion. From multiple Gods, to a single God, to God and his messiah son Jesus. 

 

In the old testament it was because God(s) actually feared man becoming like a God themselves. It says so. 

 

In Genesis 3 22-24
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

 

Notice the US in that verse. Now they interpret that to mean God was presumably talking to his son Jesus even in the beginning. But thats not so. This is a left over from earlier beliefs. In early canaanite belief there was a pantheon of God's just like Greek, Norse, or Hindu mythology. It was literally the canaanite God's talking amongst themselves. 

 

This fear is even used to trick Eve and Adam. 

 

"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate."

 

So in the old testament and in other scriptures the act of defying God's one rule and basically trying to become God is original sin. But I guess that thought became conflicting over the years. Because how could omnipotent God the father fear a measly human becoming a God like him? So as time progresses and the Satan myth evolves and as he becomes more powerful and almost equal with God. We become more so the innocent victims of Satan's evil ways. 

 

Roman's 5 12-14

 

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—  13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

 

So now in the new testament we are seeing a different original sin being taught. And I've heard it preached before as well. So this isn't something I'm pulling out of my ass. Just saying before anyone throws that out there. 

 

In Roman's he refers to one man's sin, sin entered the world for all. Not because everyone else sinned like Adam. It says that before the law sin was in the world. Well it makes sense. What was the first thing Adam and eve realized when they ate the fruit? That they were naked and they clothed themselves. This is what tipped God off. He asks them who told them they were naked? Right? So when they ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil they realized being openly naked was wrong? So apparently they were doing wrong or sinful things already. They just didn't know it until they ate the fruit.  

 

If thats the case then the original sin was already here. Simply in the way Adam and eve lived in nakedness etc. They just weren't held under the penalty because we didn't know right from wrong. So that knowledge passed to all men through Adam and eve, and we are now all held accountable for the "sins" . What all those sins are have expanded as well until now there is an unending list of what is defined as "sin". 

 

As far as Satan being allowed in the garden? There was no Satan then. It was the serpent. Literally. The Satan belief didn't come till much later. The serpent was even cursed for his role to crawl on his belly right? That is the canaanite myth to explain why those scary snakes slide around on their belly. Now we have science and we can trace the snakes evolution to figure that one out. The canaanites didn't. 

 

How about defining your Satan. Because its different with every belief. Is he as powerful as God? Can he tempt you even tho your all-powerful God has saved christians? If so why is he so powerful? Why can't God keep his own people from being deceived by him? And how omnipotent can God really be if this entity runs freely about messing up his plans for his own followers. The whole "Satan" thing really make God look like a little bitch. 

 

DB

[Joshpantera]

43 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

I already said no.

 

I know, that's why I posted your answer. But it wasn't direct enough for @WalterP.

 

So we needed you to just say "no" and let the discussion / debate proceed. Thank you for answering, BTW. We're getting into a more civil discourse now. 

 

Walter his answer is confirmed as "no." 

 

No, god did not create Adam with the knowledge of good and evil. 

[WalterP]

Ok, so with Joe's input we have now agreed that when god made him, god did not give Adam the knowledge of both good and evil.

 

This leads us to the next question.

 

This question requires a Yes/No answer.

 

If No, we can proceed further.

 

If Yes, then we must stop.

 

So, please answer the question, Joe.

 

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, was there anything in the garden that they could have recognized as either good or evil?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[pittsburghjoe]

 

Yes, Adam knew God was Good. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@pittsburghjoe, the only posts we are going to allow at this point are direct answers/responses to WalterP.  Quit copy/pasting responses to other members.  You and Dark Bishop will get y'all's chance later.  For now, handle your business with Walt.

[pittsburghjoe]

1 hour ago, WalterP said:

Ok, so with Joe's input we have now agreed that when god made him, god did not give Adam the knowledge of both good and evil.

 

This leads us to the next question.

 

This question requires a Yes/No answer.

 

If No, we can proceed further.

 

If Yes, then we must stop.

 

So, please answer the question, Joe.

 

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, was there anything in the garden that they could have recognized as either good or evil?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Everything in the garden was good except for the tree that was added later.

[florduh]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@pittsburghjoe, the only posts we are going to allow at this point are direct answers/responses to WalterP.  Quit copy/pasting responses to other members.  You and Dark Bishop will get y'all's chance later.  For now, handle your business with Walt.

Ugh. He's still here?

[alreadyGone]

15 minutes ago, florduh said:

Ugh. He's still here?

 

Well he brings enlightenment, so he probably feels he is "on a mission from God".

 

You know what a powerful motivator that can be.

 

 

 

[WalterP]

39 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

Yes, Adam knew God was Good. 

 

How?

 

When asked if god made Adam with knowledge of both good and evil, you replied, 'No.'

 

If Adam had no knowledge of either good or evil, how could he know god was good?

[pittsburghjoe]

7 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

How?

 

When asked if god made Adam with knowledge of both good and evil, you replied, 'No.'

 

If Adam had no knowledge of either good or evil, how could he know god was good?

 

The tree was about separating Good from Evil. It is humans doing judgment. Good existed before this concept.

[WalterP]

1 hour ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

Everything in the garden was good except for the tree that was added later.

 

But Adam had no knowledge of good or evil until after he ate the fruit.

 

You said so yourself.

 

So, how could Adam know that the garden was good?

 

What could he use to see and understand that the garden was good?

 

He didn't have that knowledge within himself.

 

God made him without that knowledge.

 

Wouldn't you agree that he couldn't see the garden was good, Joe?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

Ugh. He's still here?

We've got him corralled in for now; but keep your finger on the Smite button.

[WalterP]

31 minutes ago, pittsburghjoe said:

 

The tree was about separating Good from Evil. It is humans doing judgment. Good existed before this concept.

 

The fact that good existed beforehand isn't the issue Joe.

 

Adam's inability to recognize and understand it is.

 

The entire garden was good, god was good and all of god's creation was good.

 

But Adam was made blind to both good and evil.

 

That's why Eve, who was made from Adam's rib couldn't recognize Satan as evil.

 

They were both blind to good and evil.

 

Wouldn't you agree, Joe?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, WalterP said:

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, was there anything in the garden that they could have recognized as either good or evil?

 

I think I see where you are going with this. Damn good point.

 

DB

[pittsburghjoe]

10 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

The fact that good existed beforehand isn't the issue Joe.

 

Adam's inability to recognize and understand it is.

 

The entire garden was good, god was good and all of god's creation was good.

 

But Adam was made blind to both good and evil.

 

That's why Eve, who was made from Adam's rib couldn't recognize Satan as evil.

 

They were both blind to good and evil.

 

Wouldn't you agree, Joe?

 

No he wasn't blind.