WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Eve chose the fruit. Adam chose to accept the fruit. Eve apparently chose from the information the serpent provided. Adam apparently chose between accepting the fruit and obedience to God.....given the order of things as I understand them. Choice does not require understanding Walter, it only requires a this or that. No understanding of this or that is necessary. Again, Eve appeared to have a very limited understanding of her choice. Adam seemingly a limited but weightier choice. Just for the record Walter, you are an aggravating person. Get on the comprehension wagon. How many f'n times do you have to look at this gd story to understand that they chose based on limited knowledge, but they still f'n chose.....which is an example of free will. EVEN IF they knew little prior to or were in the process of learning a greater knowledge base of good and evil, the central issue is that Adam chose disobedience. You told me not to do this and I did it anyhow... Ouch! You've just shot yourself in the foot again, Edgarcito! You say that choice does NOT require understanding. But you also say that Adam chose between accepting the fruit or obeying god. So, Adam didn't require any understanding of obedience to god? That's what you're saying, isn't it? When god said to Adam... “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” ...he wasn't required to understand what god meant? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Just for the record Walter, you are an aggravating person. Get on the comprehension wagon. How many f'n times do you have to look at this gd story to understand that they chose based on limited knowledge, but they still f'n chose.....which is an example of free will. EVEN IF they knew little prior to or were in the process of learning a greater knowledge base of good and evil, the central issue is that Adam chose disobedience. You told me not to do this and I did it anyhow... Not according to you, Edgarcito. According to you, choice doesn't require ANY understanding. So, according to you they didn't choose on the basis of limited knowledge. They chose on the basis of NO knowledge! Which is, according to you, an example of free will. Would you please explain that to me, since I don't comprehend. How is choosing with No knowledge and NO understanding an example of free will? Do tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 41 minutes ago, WalterP said: Ouch! You've just shot yourself in the foot again, Edgarcito! You say that choice does NOT require understanding. But you also say that Adam chose between accepting the fruit or obeying god. So, Adam didn't require any understanding of obedience to god? That's what you're saying, isn't it? When god said to Adam... “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” ...he wasn't required to understand what god meant? Really? Right, there can be choice with no understanding.....i.e. free will. Secondly, there is choice based on limited understanding. Given we understand A&E as subjects, we gather they do not possess complete understanding. Would you like to make a list of the limited information they had and what they did with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 39 minutes ago, WalterP said: Not according to you, Edgarcito. According to you, choice doesn't require ANY understanding. So, according to you they didn't choose on the basis of limited knowledge. They chose on the basis of NO knowledge! Which is, according to you, an example of free will. Would you please explain that to me, since I don't comprehend. How is choosing with No knowledge and NO understanding an example of free will? Do tell. Not what I'm saying. There can be choice with no understanding, and choice with small or larger knowledge bases. You keep wanting to marry the two. They did choose on limited knowledge....a default btw. They chose on the basis of their interactions with God and the serpent.....both limited, but not none.....and also not complete. Once you comprehend my meaning, we may proceed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Right, there can be choice with no understanding.....i.e. free will. Secondly, there is choice based on limited understanding. Given we understand A&E as subjects, we gather they do not possess complete understanding. Would you like to make a list of the limited information they had and what they did with it? Choice with no understanding = free will? Care to explain how that works? Once you've done that I might comprehend you. And then we can move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 According to the myth, Eve ate the fruit before Adam. She did not die. Did Adam realize this before he ate the fruit? If yes, this would have conflicted with the god's "you will surely die" (information this god gave to Adam), but only if Adam understood what death was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Do some other species on Earth have free will (i.e., actual choice)? For example, dolphins, other apes, dogs, etc.? I think yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 28 minutes ago, WalterP said: Choice with no understanding = free will? Care to explain how that works? Once you've done that I might comprehend you. And then we can move on. Dad to son, “Hand me a screwdriver please“. Son hands dad a wrench. ”No Son, these are screwdrivers”. The child had no knowledge and through free will chose the wrench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, sdelsolray said: According to the myth, Eve ate the fruit before Adam. She did not die. Did Adam realize this before he ate the fruit? If yes, this would have conflicted with the god's "you will surely die" (information this god gave to Adam), but only if Adam understood what death was. But all the more reason his choice was important....trust, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 editing issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted February 7, 2021 8 minutes ago, midniterider said: editing issues... I've experienced edible issues before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 8 hours ago, WalterP said: What does it matter if god doesn't offer free will to us, midniterider? He didn't offer it to Adam and Eve and then cursed the entire human race with death when they failed his rigged 'test'? So, from a Biblical perspective, you and I and every human being are living with the consequences of god withholding free will from them. The cards have already been stacked against us by god. If we think we can freely choose Jesus to escape our curse we're just fooling ourselves. Jesus helped set up the rigged 'test'. Where's our free choice in choosing between eternal fire or the all-powerful monster who abused two innocents to glorify himself? So Yes, this is extortion. Thank you. Walter. I agree with all that, Walter. My reason for the thread was to figure out why visiting Christians keep mentioning that God can't do X because it would take away our free will. God can't be seen or it takes away our free will (lame excuse imo). God sets up some weird illogical test with Adam and Eve because he wouldnt want robots. And I wonder why Christians think that "Love me or burn forever" is a free will choice though I am sure that my Christian friends will agree that an armed robber, while doing something similar, is not offering a choice. Not a free will choice, at least. Christians confuse free will with coercion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Dad to son, “Hand me a screwdriver please“. Son hands dad a wrench. ”No Son, these are screwdrivers”. The child had no knowledge and through free will chose the wrench. Well done, Edgarcito. You've introduced the concept of the consequences of choice before I was going to. Adam was told by god that on the day he ate from the forbidden tree he would die. That was the consequence of making the wrong choice. Two questions spring out of this. 1. Did Adam have any understanding of death, in the deathless and death-free garden of Eden? 2. Did god tell Adam that he was secretly going to be made responsible, not just for himself and his wife, but for the whole human race? So, let's (for now) accept your point that Adam could make free willed choices. Did god tell him what he needed to know about the consequences of making the wrong choice? Please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 Adam and Eve spent time in the garden to learn to trust God. Adam and Even also spent time in the garden with the serpent. Perhaps they learned to trust him as well. edit: Why would God expect to get more respect than the serpent? For Edgar: If God says, "Love me or burn in Hell forever", is that a free will choice? If a person walks up to you, puts a gun to your head and says, "Give me all your money or you will surely die", is that a free will choice? How is one a free will choice, but the other quite similar scenario is a felony crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 Just a thought... the implication is that the creation, humanity, with free will is independent from good and evil. The question is why did God allow access to that extra bling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Dad to son, “Hand me a screwdriver please“. Son hands dad a wrench. ”No Son, these are screwdrivers”. The child had no knowledge and through free will chose the wrench. Let's just re-write this scenario Father/Son scenario to more accurately reflect the roles of god and Adam. Dad: "Look son, I've known before you were born that this day would come and I also knew beforehand that you wouldn't know the difference between a screwdriver and a wrench. I also knew what choice you'd make, but despite my foreknowledge of these things I'm still going to ask you to hand me a screwdriver." "Oh and by the way, if you make the wrong choice I'm going to punish you with death. So, hand me a screwdriver please." Son hands Dad a wrench, just as the Dad knew he would. "No son, these are screwdrivers. Now, to be good to my word, you're going to die as a punishment for handing me the wrong tool. Ok, you didn't understand the difference, but I'm still going to curse you with death." "There's a couple more things I want you to know. I kept the full extent of your punishment secret from you. Not only am I going to curse you with death, but I'm also going to curse your wife and your children with death too. And all your descendants. In fact, every one of the human race is going to suffer death because you didn't give me what I wanted." You see, Edgarcito? God kept the full extent of Adam's punishment secret from him. He told Adam that ONLY he would die. Free-willed choices require not just understanding of what the choice is, but also understanding of what the consequences are for making the wrong choice. God denied Adam any knowledge or understanding of the full consequence of making the wrong choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 38 minutes ago, midniterider said: I agree with all that, Walter. My reason for the thread was to figure out why visiting Christians keep mentioning that God can't do X because it would take away our free will. God can't be seen or it takes away our free will (lame excuse imo). Adam and Eve saw god every day in Eden. Does that mean that seeing him took away their free will? 38 minutes ago, midniterider said: God sets up some weird illogical test with Adam and Eve because he wouldnt want robots. Edgarcito and PittsburghJoe seem to think that unthinking, robotic obedience equals free will. 38 minutes ago, midniterider said: And I wonder why Christians think that "Love me or burn forever" is a free will choice though I am sure that my Christian friends will agree that an armed robber, while doing something similar, is not offering a choice. Not a free will choice, at least. Christians either wilfully refuse to use their critical thinking skills and their powers of logic or they never developed them in the first place. 38 minutes ago, midniterider said: Christians confuse free will with coercion. Amen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, sdelsolray said: According to the myth, Eve ate the fruit before Adam. She did not die. Did Adam realize this before he ate the fruit? If yes, this would have conflicted with the god's "you will surely die" (information this god gave to Adam), but only if Adam understood what death was. But all the more reason his choice was important....trust, etc... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're not quite seeing it, sdelsolray. We know from scripture that Eve had a garbled understanding of god's warning about the fruit. What she told the serpent is not what god told Adam. Eve would only have known about dying from Adam's lips and he certainly didn't (and couldn't) know what death was. Also, Adam was told that death (whatever that is) would come on the day that he ate the fruit. Not at the moment he ate the fruit. Furthermore, god's warning was specific ONLY to Adam. It would have taken a giant leap of imagination for him to construe that if he could die from eating the fruit, so could Eve. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, WalterP said: Adam and Eve saw god every day in Eden. Does that mean that seeing him took away their free will? ^^This and also the people who saw Jesus in person, before and after the crucifixion. And Satan's free will too. Christians either wilfully refuse to use their critical thinking skills and their powers of logic or they never developed them in the first place. It must suck when a logical thought pops into a Christian's head, but if that thought makes their God look foolish or evil, they have to immediately crush that logic with some mental gymnastic word salad because Jesus will be judging them on their blind loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted February 7, 2021 I find myself wondering if other cultures take their creation myths literally. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 28 minutes ago, florduh said: I find myself wondering if other cultures take their creation myths literally. Always with good questions and funny comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 1 hour ago, florduh said: I find myself wondering if other cultures take their creation myths literally. Well, I can't answer that one, Florduh. But I do know from reading back through many posts that BAA once asked Edgarcito (who was then End3) if he thought the Bible was inerrant. His answer was in the affirmative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 7, 2021 Author Share Posted February 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: The question is why did God allow access to that extra bling. What is your guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouDontNeedToKnow17 Posted February 7, 2021 Share Posted February 7, 2021 10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Pepsi goes best with Taco Bell; but that might be because I prefer burritos over burgers. Coke Blak would be my go-to, though, if they still sold it here We don't have taco bell here, I live in south africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 7, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted February 7, 2021 22 minutes ago, YouDontNeedToKnow17 said: We don't have taco bell here, I live in south africa Other than violent gastrointestinal eruptions, you're not missing out on much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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