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So I've been doing some research on both sides of the god argument and honestly i dont know which side to pick. I want to pick atheist but I don't have a way of knowing if im 100% correct. I really want to make sure im correct. I already know prayer doesn't work and the christian god is bad but do you guys have any suggestions on how i put my doubts to rest. also i noticed that theres a skeptics annotated bible debunked website as well as videos of people debunking bible contradictions. how do you guys refute these things? these things are a big hurdle in me becoming full on atheist

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You can be 100% certain that you have consciousness.  But that’s about it as far as certainty is really possible.  Being an atheist doesn’t mean I’m certain no god exists (that’s why I and many of us here consider myself an agnostic atheist).  I don’t believe in any gods but I can’t be certain.  I’m closer to certain that the god of the Bible doesn’t exist, and that Heaven and Hell and Satan aren’t real.  But there could be some kind of supreme being, maybe.  
 

It’s OK to think of yourself as leaning atheist.  Or just call yourself agnostic.  Or don’t use either label.  Just not being a Christian may be enough.  Focus on living your life in this world.  Often just the passage of time makes things clearer.  

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Hey Mr. Jukes,

 

Like TABA said. There is no need in becoming completely atheist unless thats a step you feel is right for you. I consider myself non-theist. I've determined beyond a shadow of a doubt (for myself) that:

 

1) Science, Archeology, and biblical scholars have proven the Bible is not the inerrant word of God. 

 

2) that all other religions on earth developed in similar manner to that of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. 

 

3) Their is no reason for me to prescribe to any of the various theologies that the world has to offer. 

 

I however, cannot rule out the possibility of there being "something more". My hope is that there is more to life than what we are able to see and experience in this body. But I just don't know what that is. And I'm fine with that. 

 

As far as the debunked contradictions you mentioned, you would really need to tell us what specifically your speaking of because the Bible is filled with contradictions. We could fire of explanations for any number of them. But which ones specifically are giving you trouble deconverting?

 

DB

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11 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

3) Their is no reason for me to prescribe to any of the various theologies that the world has to offer. 


This really is the key: don’t look to a deity for direction in your life.  Reject theology and dogma.  Figure out your own approach to moral issues.  Decide what are your priorities in life and live in the service of those priorities.  Give that way of living whatever label you like. 

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5 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said:

So I've been doing some research on both sides of the god argument and honestly i dont know which side to pick. I want to pick atheist but I don't have a way of knowing if im 100% correct. I really want to make sure im correct. I already know prayer doesn't work and the christian god is bad but do you guys have any suggestions on how i put my doubts to rest. also i noticed that theres a skeptics annotated bible debunked website as well as videos of people debunking bible contradictions. how do you guys refute these things? these things are a big hurdle in me becoming full on atheist

 

I'll repeat that you're not going about this the right way. You are thinking that 100% is an option, either way, and it's not. You need to start analyzing the situation from ground zero and get off on the right foot if you want more clarity involved in your decision making. 

 

Question #1

 

Is it even possible to have 100% certainty on the existence or non-existence of god? 

 

The answer is no. You can't see a god, you can't reach out and touch a god, and witness a god personally in such a way that you are starring right at it. The god is invisible to you, if it exists. It's not different than anything else that you can imagine in your mind, but never see or personally witness. The god is not different than Santa, Nessy, the Easter Bunny, or anything similar. 

 

You also can't scour all of existence out to infinite space beyond the universe to determine that you've searched all of existence and KNOW for certain that no god exists anywhere. And even if you could search all of existence, it could be said that the god stayed out of your witness as you searched around. This is the same as saying there's no Santa. You could go to the north pole and search all around, but then it could be said that Santa didn't want to be seen and eluded your search. 

 

But how good of an argument is that for the existence of Santa? Regardless of the "apologetic's" by a Santa believer, it's silly to think that Santa really exists but just eluded your search. 

 

Arguments for the existence of god are on no better footing. They boil down to presupposing that a god exists and then launching forward into logic leaps. There's never any proof of the presupposed belief, it's just presupposed. Like presupposing Santa exist at the north pole without first establishing that Santa actually does exist at the north pole. 

 

And this is the landscape of atheism. Agnostic atheism as TABA put it. You don't know if any gods exist because it's beyond knowing. But you realize that it's silly to believe any gods do exist, just like realizing that it's silly believing in Santa (regardless of the philosophical technicalities), then you lack god belief. You are an atheist, which means "not theist." It means someone who doesn't believe in the existence of god. 

 

At no point are you required to have 100% certainty that god doesn't exist to be an atheist. It's just a simple lack of positive belief that any gods do exist. 

 

As for bible contradictions, you will have to start picking the contradiction and the apologetic christian who claims that it's not a contradiction. And we can analyze the claims here in this thread. 

 

Start off with Genesis 1 and go from there.... 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said:

 I want to pick atheist but I don't have a way of knowing if I am 100% correct.

 

Perhaps you said more than you intended, but it should not be a matter of wanting to pick something. That language insinuates you are letting emotions get the better of you. What you should desire is to know the truth, and learn how to investigate ideas to determine if they are true. Nothing wrong with emotions, humans are emotional creatures and to try and remove all emotion from a line of thinking is impossible.

 

My critical thinking skills when it came to religion used to be non-existent. I did not understand, or perhaps better stated, I thought religion was exempt from logic, reason, evidence, and investigation. I was willing to entertain anything and everything because it had some possibility of being true. All that did was put me into a tailspin of self-doubt and continuous questioning of how I could know what was true. It was an endless cycle where I thought someone surely had the answer, I just needed to stumble across it or be guided to it by God.

 

This went on for a number of years where finally the cognitive dissonance became too great and I started having mental breakdowns. Not full on episodes where I did crazy stuff, but I started to have stomach aches, nausea, and my anxiety was through the roof. I always knew something was wrong, I just could not pin it down. It was then that in my final hour of desperation I realized that only one person could possibly answer my questions and ensure I was on the right path - God himself. At first I appealed to the Christian God to give me an hour of his time, then I appealed to whatever God may be out there in case it was not the Christian God. I was willing to forgo everything and sacrifice everything if I could just get the answers I so desperately needed. When nothing ever came, I concluded either there is nothing there, or if there is something there, it does not care enough to grant me my humble request; and if the latter was the case, then surely the Christian God could not be real because I was willing to do what other Christians and the Bible said God wants - absolute full control over my life.

 

After that, I really had nowhere else to go. Staying in Christianity and believing was not working. I had no real answers and 30,000 different denominations crossing swords over the Bible did not solve anything. If nothing else, the more I learned, the muddier the water became. It was at that time that I finally decided to venture outside my evangelical box and I just wanted to see what people who left Christianity had to say. I did not want to read anything from someone who was never a Christian, I felt like they would not understand what it was like to be in the game, so to speak. My first book was a Kindle version of Star Map: A Journey of Faith, Doubt, and Meaning by Lewis Vaughn. Lewis' story was just like mine. He was looking for the truth in the Bible and was constantly confused over scripture and interpretations of it. Throughout the story, I kept having these 'yes!" moments because I felt like the author and myself could have written the same story.

 

Once I read that book, I was eager for more. As a newbie, I started looking at blogs, such as https://brucegerencser.net/, https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/blog/,  Bart Ehrman blog, and others like it. I was amazed at how these former Christians were just like me in that they earnestly sought truth in the faith, but came up empty handed. As I read and learned more, I moved on to Dr. Robert Price, Dr. Richard Carrier, John Loftus, Aron Ra, and many others.

 

I am still on my journey of studying Christianity, but I am at a place now where I cannot be 100% certain Christianity is false, but the evidence is overwhelming and indicates that the possibility of Christianity being true is so slim, it is essentially negligible.

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Wow hierophant that is such a moving and relatable testimony. Reading testimonies like yours give me hope as to show that im not only one who felt that god was never there for me. Thanks for the support man it really helps. At this point ill just focus on living life and enjoying it. By the way anybody watching the super bowl tomorrow?

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I'll be watching it. I think the Chiefs will probably take it.

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2 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said:

Reading testimonies like yours give me hope as to show that im not only one who felt that god was never there for me.

We do have a Testimonials forum slap-full of god not being there for people.  You should make yourself to home in there.  My own story is buried somewhere deep within its annals.  

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History is made. Home team making it to hometown super bowl. 

 

One step further, history made with home town team winning the super bowl at home town arena. Let's see how history plays out.......

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If I hear any more about the Tampa sports ball team, I swear I'll cut off my buckin' ears.

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I’ll be happy if Tom wins another one.  Or if Mahomes does.  I just want a good - hopefully exciting - football game.  I’m less interested in the commercials and the half-time show.  Plus my wife is making her awesome pizza and we have locally brewed beer, so there’s that. 

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well it was a great game although it kind of sucks it was lopsided. thank you guys for all your countinous support

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14 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said:

well it was a great game although it kind of sucks it was lopsided. thank you guys for all your countinous support

 

I wanted TB to win. But by the end of it I felt sorry for the chiefs. I was just like. Come on. Let em get one more TD lol 😆. Oh well. 

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Living in the Tampa Bay area I sometimes regret that I care nothing whatsoever for pro sports. Local franchises are all kicking ass and fans are having spontaneous orgasms. Ah, well, it's good for our local economy. 🤪

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On 2/4/2021 at 10:59 PM, Mrjukes21 said:

So I've been doing some research on both sides of the god argument and honestly i dont know which side to pick. I want to pick atheist but I don't have a way of knowing if im 100% correct. I really want to make sure im correct. I already know prayer doesn't work and the christian god is bad but do you guys have any suggestions on how i put my doubts to rest. also i noticed that theres a skeptics annotated bible debunked website as well as videos of people debunking bible contradictions. how do you guys refute these things? these things are a big hurdle in me becoming full on atheist

     The only question that matters is do you really, deep down, actually believe in the god of the bible?  I'm not asking if you believe if there may be some sort of a god or even some sort of high power or spirit but specifically the god and everything that is laid out in the bible?  Could you walk into a church of your own choosing today and fall back into it?  The whole mindset?  Lock, stock and barrel?  Would you be an actual believer or a simply posing as one?

 

          mwc

 

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probably not because i cant comprehend the fact that a god would torture someone for all eternity. no matter how hard you try to justify it tou just cant without looking stupid

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For me there is one passage in the Bible that proves that it cannot have been inspired by an all knowing God:

 

Romans 1:18-23

Quote

 

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

 

 

This is basically saying we know God exists but we just want to sin etc. This is a common line of argument from Christians. It's also, at least in my case utterly wrong. God has not been made plain to me, I don't believe in the Bible God despite Christians saying that I really do believe, I'm just lying to myself. Thus I know for a fact that the Bible wasn't inspired by an all knowing God as claimed because an all knowing God wouldn't have included a false statement about the condition of my mind in the bible. Therefore the God of the bible does not exist.

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7 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said:

probably not because i cant comprehend the fact that a god would torture someone for all eternity. no matter how hard you try to justify it tou just cant without looking stupid

     So it looks like you kind of know where you're at as far as this particular god belief goes.  Why worry about the rest?  It will all come together as you move on from here.  It's not a job where it's best if you line something up before walking out the door.  It's like a break-up.  You don't need to have someone else lined up.  Whatever comes next will happen organically.  And like a break-up there's always the period where you're not sure you made the right decision and consider going back but if you deep-down know they're wrong for you just feel like crap for awhile and work on getting your head together for whatever happens next.

 

          mwc

 

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alright thanks guys for the advice. also what do you guys think about people who say that the people on this site are going through a rebellious phase and that theyll come back to god

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49 minutes ago, Mrjukes21 said:

rebellious phase

 

I would say they are making themselves feel better about our deconversion by convincing themselves we are going through a "phase" and we will be back. Rebellious phases are usually done during the "rebellious" hormonal years of puberty. There are people from all walks of life and age groups. I'm not going to say there is no one here that fits that description. I mean I'm not a mind reader or anything.

 

But for the most part people who deconvert have discovered truths that reveal the lies in the Bible. Once the Bible has been thoroughly debunked. There is really no going back. I'm just being honest. Church seems like such a waste of time now to me. If I wanted to go join a group of people while they read fairy tales, I would probably go to the library and sit with the kiddos while they were read to. 

 

DB

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3 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said:

...rebellious phase...

 

Pretty much what DB said above.

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5 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said:

alright thanks guys for the advice. also what do you guys think about people who say that the people on this site are going through a rebellious phase and that theyll come back to god

 

That's what a lot of christian apologist's have done in their own lives. They like to talk about how they rebelled and returned to god and christianity. Or how they were atheist and became christian. It's all part of the apologetic's and proselytizing efforts.

 

I went to school with a number of guys who did just that. They were hell on wheels in high school and college. Then later got married, had kids, and took up hard-on's for the church again. They were the fake rebels basically. That's how the rest of us look at them anyways. Those of us who stuck to our guns and never crawled back to the church regardless of marriage, kids, middle age, or any other factor. And those of us who were not outrageous but simply put our foot down about the church being wrong, haven't lived with any major regrets. We don't feel like fuck up's. And certainty don't look towards the church to fix our perceived fuck up's. But that's what several of my friends from high school have done. Rebel and act outrageous until they burn out then run back to "home base" to feel good about themselves again. 

 

People like that tend to project their own subjective experiences and reasoning onto everyone else. 

 

Let's face it, subjective reasoning #1 is the assumption, without verification, that a god exists in the first place. From there everything else follows. From there it's a stroll down the yellow brick road of subjective fantasy. Hopping and skipping along, oblivious to the objective view points.....

 

From-Start-to-Sold-683x340.jpg

 

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