SELF FULFILLING PROPHECIES: Original Sin vs. Humanism

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Looking at the world through my life experiences and education, including growing up Christian, this fairly well sums up my conclusion about original sin.

 

A self fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that helps itself to come true.  Original sin doctrine coming from authoritarian religious leaders , saying people are incomplete, inferior, lost, and need divine instruction from an infallible source (which they happen to have) is believed by many, and believing it makes it so.   It gives the "religious police" a job for life, and opens it up for believers to be misled, used and abused by unscrupulous leaders.  Critical thinking and higher education is often discouraged.  It might contaminate your mind and lead you astray, putting your soul in jeopardy.  And it might put the religious police out of a job!  When will people realize authoritarian systems are archaic outside religion??  And the Bible is based on myth.

 

Think of a humanitarian perspective of being a valuable life form , and part of a complex world and that desperately needs balance.  And you, like everyone else, need to be a part of maintaining that balance through reasoning, critical thinking and research.  In other words, be part of an evidence based ideology, not based on ancient myths.  This indicates it is up to everyone to make this a better, safer world to live in, and a world that will sustain life for future generations.   And everyone is simply human, with no "holy ones" to do our thinking for us.  And we shouldn't rely on celebrities or politicians to do our thinking.  We all need education to best facilitate our well-being.  The more we know, about more subjects, the better prepared we are to sustain ourselves and the world.  The evidence suggests individuals need to feel worthwhile, and have a sense of "WE", to have a healthy society.   NOT to be told we are all inherently inferior sinners.

 

The doctrine of original sin reminds me of a statement made by a drill sargent I had in basic military training who was chewing out a guy who had done something he wasn't supposed to do.  The guy said, "sargent, I thought........"   The sargent cut him off and said, "You aren't here to think, you are here to obey orders."  

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

I always think it's ironic that people are attracted to the idea of eternal life in subservience to a murderous, hateful god who destroys most of what he creates out of sheer spite and resents what he does not destroy... is an idea of a positive outcome?

 

Creating a world where people can be proud of what they have become is more the world I want to see!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 minutes ago, DestinyTurtle said:

 

I always think it's ironic that people are attracted to the idea of eternal life in subservience to a murderous, hateful god who destroys most of what he creates out of sheer spite and resents what he does not destroy... is an idea of a positive outcome.

 

Yep!  Beneath the veneer of love, it's a religion based on fear.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Have you ever considered the significance of dropping the threat of genocide, and adding the fear of eternal punishment in an afterlife?  (If there is any significance there)  This just occurred to me a few days ago.

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

Have you ever considered the significance of dropping the threat of genocide, and adding the fear of eternal punishment in an afterlife?  (If there is any significance there)  This just occurred to me a few days ago.

The folks I grew up with literally made the 'zero-sum game' argument that if no one went to hell then there would be no glory in going to heaven. To people like that genocide is the *only* way to ensure the supremacy of your in-group!

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

1 minute ago, Mrjukes21 said:

Consdering how disgusting the morality is just by burning someone forever and ever. no one deserves that even hitler doesnt

I have a soft spot for some buddhist depictions of hell... which is that they are painful reams you can be incarnated in (sometimes for millions of years) where you slog through all your bad karma from your past lives. Makes sense for people who are really assh*les, while also keeping it positive, because it's not cruelty for cruelty's own sake - there's a light at the end of the (million year) tunnel!

[alreadyGone]

On 2/18/2021 at 1:09 AM, Mrjukes21 said:

Honestly I just cant imagine the fact that people can be happy that other people are going to hell. ..

 

Yet for many believers...  when they become involved with an apostate former believer and want so fervently to help return the poor lost sheep back to the flock, and then discover it isn't so simple as "just pray with me about it!"..

 

So very often they sink from that attitude of helping, to a posture of "well you can just go on to hell then!".

If you won't just agree with them, thereby validating their beliefs, then you are suddenly deserving of a trip to eternal damnation.

One moment you're a poor lost sheep, the next moment you're an asshole, one of "those kind", in line for punishment by "their god".

 

 

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

Hmm. Well, for me, this is a complex topic. One the one hand , humans are clearly failible. And it would be nice to have an infailible source.

       The contradiction I ran into was God the infailible sends his message and grace through failible means -  humans. As such that makes the message uncertain as well. If you write a perfect equation on a paper known to cause inkblots and stains where a 3 can look like a 9 or dictate the perfect equation to a man with hearing problems you just made it uncertain for others.

     So you, a failible human have to choose another failible human or human production and hope that is the true good choice. Basically a russian roulette with your soul. So I got really panicked when no method of even choosing the right thing was given.

      Even if your version of original sin is true then, well, there is not a clear way to get out of it. You cannot really trust the religious police.

      I don t think critical thinking is enough though. I think some kind of contemplative practice be that art or meditation etc is necessary. Look at psychotherapy. Many problems cannot just reasoned away and trance tehniques are used. 

     I don't know about humans are valuable because they exist. How do you justify that? Valuable in what way? Is a serial child rapist valuable? These days I think existence in itself is value neutral and its conditions and attributes, so its mofe makes it positive or negative relative to the standard you are using. 

    By the way do you know daniel schechtemberger? Idk if I spelled his name well. He says smth like we either get educated in epistemology it we get bust. Epistemology about nature like phil of science, about others like how can I understand others and about ourselves our own biases inclinations etc. That democracy is doomed to fail from the start without it. I agree.Bk without these there cannot be productive dialogue. Only coercion by force.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 3/23/2021 at 1:21 AM, Myrkhoos said:

 

     I don't know about humans are valuable because they exist. How do you justify that? Valuable in what way? Is a serial child rapist valuable?

 

They were not serial rapist when born.  They were a valuable life form, and many factors went into making them that way---probably being abused themselves.  In some cultures all life forms are regarded as "valuable".  HA! but some more valuable than others.  I was reading a story a few days ago about a native american who killed a deer to eat.  He apologized to the deer for killing it, but said he couldn't find anything else to eat at the time. 

[Myrkhoos]

13 hours ago, Weezer said:

They were not serial rapist when born.  They were a valuable life form, and many factors went into making them that way---probably being abused themselves.  In some cultures all life forms are regarded as "valuable".  HA! but some more valuable than others.  I was reading a story a few days ago about a native american who killed a deer to eat.  He apologized to the deer for killing it, but said he couldn't find anything else to eat at the time. 

Maybe they were born that way. Why are so sure they weren't? There are ppl who say psychopaths are also born that way. I mean many things can be encoded in genes. If gay ppl can say they were born that way - with almost zero scientific genetic proof, only their own subjective experiences abd affirmations, why couldn t an aggressive pedophile?  There is documentary I forgot tye name saying like that. That pedophiles are born like that. Pedophilia is after all , just another type of sexual orientation.

      2. You have not produced any argument why humans are valuable and what that actually means in your view. In an utilitarian worldview I can say in a famine situation, a child being born is a negative value. And the widespread practice of abortion in the West says that many people, women especially, do not regard the human life inside of them as a positive value but as a negative value. And nobody denies that a human fetus is a human life, the controversy is around its legal/moral status. But it does fit all checkboxes for the current biological definition of life.

      Also many states have the death sentence and consider sone life as a negative value.

        And the story about the deer. Well yes the deer WAS valuable to the person BUT nit in itself but because it satisfied the person's hunger.And it does not sound like a terribly moral thing either. I can rape a woman and then say I am sorry, I just couldn t find anyone willing to have sex with me with consent. 

    Finally, some cultures thought all life was valuable. Well, the trick is, how you said, how and ehat is the hierarchy. I am certain and this can be proven that the confederates considered negro slaves extremely valuable. So much so they fought a civil war to defend that form of value. A pimp views his women as valuable.

One needs a coherent and clear definition of value before saying all life is valuable bk that is much to vague to even properly debate.

[Myrkhoos]

Documentary I pedophile starring neuroscientist James Cantor. The pedophile doc.

[Seekingwhatisnext]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:57 AM, alreadyGone said:

 

Yet for many believers...  when they become involved with an apostate former believer and want so fervently to help return the poor lost sheep back to the flock, and then discover it isn't so simple as "just pray with me about it!"..

 

So very often they sink from that attitude of helping, to a posture of "well you can just go on to hell then!".

If you won't just agree with them, thereby validating their beliefs, then you are suddenly deserving of a trip to eternal damnation.

One moment you're a poor lost sheep, the next moment you're an asshole, one of "those kind", in line for punishment by "their god".

 

 

 

 

This is what I have found among some believers. I think they understand doubting, but they cannot understand rejecting god. If I say I’m struggling with my faith they are so very helpful and loving and kind.  If I say I fully understand the god of the Bible and yet I do not believe in him then that is not in line with how they see god and they must defend their god and in the process I become the evil one who rejects such a great gift from a wonderful god. Thankfully that reaction has been limited. I have been met with far more people who do continue to be loving and kind and accept me no matter what, wether Christian and atheist. But I have had the painful experience of basically being discarded because clearly I must be evil since their god is so perfect. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

 

Maybe they were born that way. Why are so sure they weren't?

 

Because I am a retired behavioral and social scientist with 35 years of experience working with those kind of people.  I am talking about mainstream thinking in the profession, not some quack "expert" that has cherry picked information to make a point.   

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Documentary I pedophile starring neuroscientist James Cantor. The pedophile doc.

 

Thanks for posting that.  Yes there are indicators that people are born with certain tendencies, urges, etc.  It is also possible some "conditioning" happens very early in life that makes it seem like people were born that way.  We all have urges that would not be appropriate if we acted on them.  That does not mean we aren't valuable life forms.  It is only a problem if we act on them, and the men featured in the article did not act on it.  And whether we act on them, or not, is another complex issue having to do with good judgement.  And unless something has happened to that part of our brains having to do with judgement, such as brain injury, fetal alcoholism, etc, It appears judgement is mostly learned.   I am saying that overall, life is valuable.