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Gary Habermas


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Have you guys heard of Gary and his arguments for the resurrection? I came across a YouTube video and people in the comments were talking about him turning them into christians and how modern atheism was based on ignorance. I feel kind of iffy about it because I don’t really want Christianity to be true..

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A lot of people in this thread are going to ask you why you're still spending time with christian materials such as videos.  You may want to think of an answer or two.  Just a heads-up. 

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7 minutes ago, fluffyapple said:

because I don’t really want Christianity to be true.

 

Be cautious with this type of thinking.  Objective reality either IS or IS NOT. Our wants and desires influence our perception and interpretation of what is True, but have no bearing on the truth itself.

 

As to Habermas, I looked at it pretty in depth a few years back and found it lacking.  Unfortunately, because I discarded it fairly quickly I failed to internalize the argument.  If memory serves, his minimal facts approach treats the claims of witnesses and miracles as true at face value.  It's a simple argument that lacks grounding.

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2 minutes ago, Krowb said:

 

Be cautious with this type of thinking.  Objective reality either IS or IS NOT. Our wants and desires influence our perception and interpretation of what is True, but have no bearing on the truth itself.

 

As to Habermas, I looked at it pretty in depth a few years back and found it lacking.  Unfortunately, because I discarded it fairly quickly I failed to internalize the argument.  If memory serves, his minimal facts approach treats the claims of witnesses and miracles as true at face value.  It's a simple argument that lacks grounding.

Thats true. I have to accept the facts for what it is and not go based off what I want. 

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

A lot of people in this thread are going to ask you why you're still spending time with christian materials such as videos.  You may want to think of an answer or two.  Just a heads-up. 

It was in my recommended on YouTube so I figured I should press on it just incase I may have “missed out” on something. 

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Is there, by any chance, a large international market near you?  Or an airport?

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I've heard plenty of apologists try to prove the resurrection (not Gazza in particular, but the arguments are almost always the same).  The uphill battle that apologists have, is that proving a crucifixion would not prove anything (as a form of execution it was used thousands of times, so someone called Jesus being crucified would be statistically likely).  They need to prove that Jesus was dead and then came back to life, and there is no evidence for that outside of the unfounded assertions made in the bible.  There are no claimed first hand accounts and the biblical writings are by unknown authors and from unknown dates (guessed to be decades or even centuries after the events).

 

There was one sect of Christians who believe Jesus survived the crucifixion as he was not up long enough to expire and didn't have his legs broken like the others (which is the normal way to kill the person quickly, as once they cannot support their weight they will be unable to breathe).  He rose after a few days of recovery, still showing the wounds on his body, and his followers quickly rushed him out of the country so that the Romans didn't finish the job.  They claim he fled to India where he lived out the rest of his life preaching, and there is a tomb there where they claim his remains lay.  Tomb Of Jesus In India

While the majority of Christians reject this (after all it removes Jesus's sacrifice and makes mockery of thousands of years of belief), a non-supernatural answer is automatically more plausible than the bibles supernatural one.  A failed execution being claimed to be divine favour would certainly set that person up for worship.  End of the day there is simply no way to ever know what happened, or even if the person called Jesus existed at all.

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4 hours ago, fluffyapple said:

Have you guys heard of Gary and his arguments for the resurrection?

 

Yes. They are no better than WIlliam Lane Craigs or Frank Tureks. Or any other apologist. Simply put all the argumentation in the world is not sufficient to warrant belief in the supernatural claims.

 

4 hours ago, fluffyapple said:

I came across a YouTube video and people in the comments were talking about him turning them into christians and how modern atheism was based on ignorance.

 

Religious folks have been saying atheism is based on ignorance for millennia. Ancient Greeks were put to death for denying the obvious existence of the Gods. This is one of these self defense statements Christians say to make them feel safe and secure in their beliefs. Similar to saying we were not true Christians, or that we really do know God exists we just want to sin.

 

4 hours ago, fluffyapple said:

I feel kind of iffy about it because I don’t really want Christianity to be true..

 

This has been pointed out, but reality doesn't really give a shit about what you want. Either something is true or it isn't. If we are intellectually honest, we look at the arguments and evidence and follow it to its conclusion whether we like it or not. Most, if not all of us here have looked at said evidence, found it wanting, and that's why we are Ex-Christians. For me at least, it had nothing to do with not wanting it to be true, in fact at the time I very much wanted it to be true.

 

 

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@fluffyapple

 

Ok I watched a video of his and it went about like i thought it would. In the video that I watched he is talking about the success of the early church and how it is directly related to the resurrection. His reasoning for the success is "because people saw him again after the resurrection," then sites scripture where he was seen after the resurrection. This is a common tactic I've noticed. I came across an apologist last night when I was looking for that link I posted on your other thread.

 

First he went through the opposition to an old testament written by Moses. Then says that critics don't consider the "evidence" for an old testament written by Moses. Then proceeds to list Bible verse after Bible verse supporting the narrative of Moses. 

 

....................... mmmm ok. Well that supports nothing. That is where the story comes from in the first place. All those scriptures have to be verified true and accurate. Sadly the Bible epically fails to provide provable evidence for most of its entirety.

 

For a book to be considered nonfiction it has to be verified by a reputable source. You can't just slap nonfiction on something. A local man to my area enterviewed hundreds of members and former members of The church of God of the Union assembly. He wrote a very good book called Religion of Fear.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Fear-Story-Church-Assembly/dp/162190508X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=religion+of+fear&qid=1614112194&sr=8-1

 

If you are into reading about cults. This is a good one. I was a part of a church that broke away from this church. The church of God of the Gospel assembly. 

 

When Mr Cady wrote this book, to get it verified as nonfiction he had to submit it to the scrutiny of the university of Tennessee. After over a year of checks his book was approved to be marketed as nonfiction. 

 

I said all of that to say this. The story of the resurrection comes from the Bible which has a reputation for being inaccurate. Attempts to prove accuracy of the Bible fail time and time again. Many narratives were written well after the fact, which is provable because cities and events are mentioned that didn't even exist at the time of the narrative. Many "Prophecies" were written this way. They wrote them in past tense well after they happened. 

 

 If this guy is supporting the resurrection with scripture then he is just doing what any preacher does at the pulpit. He is just doing it from a different angle. Thats like saying the Langoliers are real because Stephen kings book said so. 

 

So why watch and listen to these apologists? You need to read books by the authors that he mentions as the critics for the resurrection. Read Bart Ehrmann, Price, Hitchins. Read their books and watch their videos, because they are going to give you a lot more provable evidence for their argument than this guy will. How can you know if he is really as good as you think if you don't check out his competition. When you read from the authors he mentions as critics I think you will find them much more convincing. 

 

When you watch this guys videos and read his articles your just sticking your head back up in the clouds again. 

 

Thats my two cents on this one a guess.

 

DB

 

 

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8 hours ago, fluffyapple said:

Yes, an airport...

Okay.  There is a thought exercise from which you might benefit.  You need to find somewhere that you can observe a lot of people from all over the world at the same time and in the same setting.  Airports and international markets are good spots to do this.  You want an international population so you can be sure that the people you are observing represent different cultures, ethnicities, and, most importantly, different religions.  You should go alone, if possible, so as not to be distracted by conversation with friends or family.  Once there, find a comfortable place and simply... observe.

 

Observe the people.  Look past the hijabs, skin tones, and the fragrance of garlic and curry powder and see the people.  Observe them without thinking anything about them.  Try to find some teenagers from other places in the world and watch them interact.  Notice how parents and children respond to each other.  Watch young lovers and feel the emotions of joy and sorrow.  Notice the differences; but focus on the similarities.  Withold judgement of any kind and simply observe until you feel the oneness of humanity. 

 

Then ask yourself: if there were only one god who can reach all of these people, what would he/she/it be like?  What sort of characteristics would such a god need to reach all of these people?  In what ways would such a god reach out to everyone?  For the purpose of this exercise, forget what you have been taught about religion.  Ignore questions about heaven and hell and eternal dalmatians.  Instead, honestly search yourself until you come up with answers to these questions with which you are both satisfied and comfortable. 

 

The goal of this exercise is not to make the people fit the god; but, rather, to make the god fit the people.   It is easy to imagine a god who could reach everyone, if only these people believed this and those people accepted that.  But that will get you no further than any of the other religions already represented.  The Buddha would enlighten us all if only everyone believed the dharma.  jesus would bring salvation to the world if only everyone accepted him.  But if there is only one god, would it treat the muhammedan any differently than the practitioner of voodoo?  Would it not accept that both are simply seeking it as they know how?

 

A god who cannot reach everyone is not omnipotent.   And a god who cannot or will not understand the different ways people seek it is not omniscient.  As such, all gods fail; just as all religions are incomplete.  All of us simply have little pieces of god without the whole.  Those partial ideas of god can be excluded from your search.  You have to move past finding a god that only certain people fit until you can imagine a god who fits everyone, as they are, where they are, for who they are. 

 

When you can honestly answer the questions for yourself, to your own satisfaction and comfort, then you will have found, within yourself, The One True God.

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31 minutes ago, poci said:

Stab me with a knife, twist my neck and spit on my grave! You don’t care non atheists pain and struggles

Wow. So much drama for a non-topic.

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