poci Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 So sorry guys it’s been like a hella while since I last blogged just been very busy yah know. If there was like an app it be easier for me. Anyways, as some of you know I’m a potential christian, I’ve been asking ex Christians I know why the think it’s wrong for awhile now so I could make an educated desistion on my worldview. My Q for today is, if anyone has found a better theory for the Ressurection of Christ yet? So far other explanations aren’t very convincing for me. And please don’t attack me I’m not here to convert nobody, I just have honest questions and concerns I wanna talk to someone about without being seen as a stupid monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 24 Super Moderator Report Share Posted February 24 3 hours ago, poci said: anyone has found a better theory for the Ressurection of Christ yet? You do know it's just a story and not an historical event, right? https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/resurrection/lecture.html 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci Posted February 24 Author Report Share Posted February 24 2 hours ago, florduh said: You do know it's just a story and not an historical event, right? If that were true I’d obviously wouldn’t be going to Christianity would I? What’s your theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted February 24 Moderator Report Share Posted February 24 Since there have been no cases where a human has been clearly shown to have returned to life after death, I’m convinced it is impossible. Now we know that the belief developed in certain quarters in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE that a man named Jesus had returned from death. And today hundreds of millions believe it. The belief also developed in other quarters in the 7th century that a man named Muhammad travelled from Jerusalem to Heaven on a winged horse. And today hundreds of millions believe that. So if you are inclined to believe in Christianity, I would ask you why you are inclined to believe that Jesus rose form the dead. Like Muhammad and his fantastic journey, why should it be believed? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 24 Super Moderator Report Share Posted February 24 10 hours ago, poci said: If that were true I’d obviously wouldn’t be going to Christianity would I? What’s your theory? My theory is that you simply want to believe despite the fact that there is no evidence for it. But why ask only about the resurrection story? Why not the talking snake? The loaves and fishes? The burning bush? The walk on water? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poci Posted February 24 Author Report Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, TABA said: Since there have been no cases where a human has been clearly shown to have returned to life after death, I’m convinced it is impossible. Now we know that the belief developed in certain quarters in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE that a man named Jesus had returned from death. And today hundreds of millions believe it. The belief also developed in other quarters in the 7th century that a man named Muhammad travelled from Jerusalem to Heaven on a winged horse. And today hundreds of millions believe that. So if you are inclined to believe in Christianity, I would ask you why you are inclined to believe that Jesus rose form the dead. Like Muhammad and his fantastic journey, why should it be believed? Because of the EVIDENCE, and There’s been plenty cases. No I’m not gonna give it to you. I’m just looking for counter evidence for the piles evidence we have for Christianity. If you don’t know about it just look it up. I’m to busy right now to go over the data. Plus peps in the other comments have and are gonna continue saying hurtful stuff to me, and idk how much I can take. This might not be the place to receive help or anything healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TABA Posted February 24 Moderator Report Share Posted February 24 I’m sure there are STORIES of people being raised from the dead. The old B&W Frankenstein and Dracula movies are great, but they’re just stories too. In reality, people do not come back from the dead, period. If you want to know why we no longer believe in Christianity or the Bible-god, then this recent post is a good summary of the main reasons... Christianity does not even come close to being demonstrably true. But plenty of people believe it anyway, just as plenty of people believe in Islam and other religions. That’s what faith is. If you want to believe, feel free. It’s just not belief grounded in reality. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 20 hours ago, poci said: a better theory for the Resurection of Christ There are a few commonly held ideas about the story of the resurrection outside of it being a miracle (which we only have the doubtful word of the bible, a book written by unknown authors, at unknown dates, for unknown reasons). The mythicist view is that Jesus probably didn't exist at all, based on his similarity to earlier god-man stories, lack of physical evidence and lack of contemporary writings. The only writings of Jesus were at best decades, if not centuries after his claimed death. The more common view was that it was a mundane event that had later stories told about it, and supernatural claims attached. It is quite believable that a Jewish preacher called Jesus existed, had a sect of followers and was arrested and executed. What became of the body? Perhaps buried, taken by his followers, interred into a mass grave for criminals as the Roman's usually did or burnt on a pyre. With no physical body his followers could make all sorts of claims and with no one else there to check those stories, they were accepted and elaborated on. The third option I'll mention is the belief of some small sects of Christians that Jesus survived the crucifixion. He was not up on the cross long enough to die naturally, and his legs were not broken like the other criminals. They also mention that when he was stabbed in the side the blood flowed, this could be a sign the heart still beats. If his followers managed to take him down before he died, then nurse him back to health, so that he rose a few days later from his death bed, then they would need to hide him and rush him away to avoid the Romans returning to finish the job. The sects claim that he fled to India where he lived out the rest of his life preaching. There is a tomb in India which is claimed to contain the remains of Jesus: Tomb Of Jesus In India So maybe he didn't exist, maybe it was a purely mundane event or perhaps he survived and fled. All options that do not require any supernatural input and are therefore more likely than miracles occurring. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted February 24 Moderator Report Share Posted February 24 On 2/24/2021 at 11:29 AM, poci said: My Q for today is, if anyone has found a better theory for the Ressurection of Christ yet? Do you ever ask if anyone has found a better theory for how Muhammed rode to Jerusalem on a winged horse and split the moon? If your answer is to scoff and say "that's just a made up story", congratulations you've found your answer for the so called resurrection. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 4 hours ago, poci said: No I’m not gonna give it to you. I’m just looking for counter evidence for the piles evidence we have for Christianity. If you don’t know about it just look it up. I’m to busy right now to go over the data. Poci, I'm not trying to hurt you or belittle you but this statement isn't logical. You state that there is tons of evidence but you are unwilling to provide links or references to said evidence. We can't read minds. You would have to do your own diligence in supporting your statements just as we try to. You need to tell us what evidence your referring to so that we can point you in the right direction. From our point of view there isn't enough evidence. Please tell us what evidence you think there is. DB 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted February 24 Moderator Report Share Posted February 24 5 hours ago, poci said: Because of the EVIDENCE, and There’s been plenty cases. No I’m not gonna give it to you. I’m just looking for counter evidence for the piles evidence we have for Christianity. You don't have any clue right now how misinformed you are. There are not piles of evidence for christianity!!! I know that because I personally debate christian apologists. During those debates, I ask them for their evidence and they fail to provide it. So I'm quite aware of the lack of positive evidence because I'm right on top of the issue. You are glancing at people claiming that they have evidence and accepting their claims at face value. You are not debating them and holding their feet to fire like myself and other ex christians do very regularly. So your subjective analysis is that there's tons of evidence for christianity, when, in reality, there is not. It's all fluff. All of it. If you want to know for yourself what's fluff and what isn't, well, you have to do the work. You have to engage the debates. And get your own hands dirty trying sort out what's demonstrably true and what's demonstrably false. If you want to learn this lesson, you can try and debate any one of us on the truth of christianity. Where you are in the hot seat trying prove that christianity is true. Only then will you see and understand how impossible it is to prove christianity true. No one has ever accomplished it. And if you are trying to be honest with yourself, the exercise could be a major wake up call. Because right now you are far, far away from the truth of the issue.... It HAS to start at the beginning with Genesis. Here's a preview of one of my debates with a christian apologist challenged to demonstrate the TRUTH of the bible starting from the beginning: 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 12 hours ago, poci said: Because of the EVIDENCE, and There’s been plenty cases. No I’m not gonna give it to you. I’m just looking for counter evidence for the piles evidence we have for Christianity. If you don’t know about it just look it up. I’m to busy right now to go over the data. Plus peps in the other comments have and are gonna continue saying hurtful stuff to me, and idk how much I can take. This might not be the place to receive help or anything healthy. There's nothing better than feeling afraid and ashamed and guilty every day. That's Christianity. So enjoy yourself. Be a Christian. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 I hope you are ok Prologue. You would do well to research judaism and muslim refutations of christian dogma. They have been at it for many centuries so that is one of the best places to find anti christian points. So, the evidence for the resurection I have heard are mostly 1. So many people believe it, to the point of millions dieing for it. Well, the counter is that, in sheer numbers, most of Earth 's population does not believe it, and those who do, have different opinions about it. - how, why it happened. Also, the ONLY abrahamic faith that says it preserves the original Hebrew Bible - Judaism, rejects the and Christianity in general. Other large Churches use as a main source 1. The Greek Septuagint 2. Latin Vulgate 3. Aramaic Peshitta 4. Ethiopian Geez 5. Coptic. All modern vernacular versions are based on these and the before mentioned Judaic Masoretic text. 2. Personal mystical exp ( NDE, dreams, feelings, etc). These are common exp in humanity from many if not all cultures. And they have diff content. 3. Very and I mean VERY little material evidence. The writen sources are mostly the Gospels and epistles. Maybe smth from Josephus. But there were so called serious historians , Tacitus I don t remember exactly, that wrote that in India there is a people with only one big foot. So trusting ancient sources, all of them, is a bit..difficult. The archaeology is basically non existent and there is nothing you COULD find that proves ressurection anyway . Like electromagnetic remains or what? You can find people today that believe their spiritual master is God or a prophet or..Plus in those times, gods and hero stories were the norm. So accepting ressurection story was not such a big leap. But pls show me the evidence. I would gladly want to know it and the truth. The thing is, even if the ressurection is true, its process and meaning still remain a question. It would not prove the rest of the Bible or the dogma. So I remain unconvinced so far. But I think one does NOT need an alternate theory in order to reject the theory in question 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted February 25 Report Share Posted February 25 Did Jesus Exist? - YouTube This seems like a nice video on the topic of the historicity of Jesus. It seems pretty researched and non biased for the most part and does seem to want to impose a view necessarily. By the way, I am no expert and do not claim.certainty, I do not even claim rigorous prolongued study - I have not gone to Jerusalem for example altough I would like to even know. But my time and energy is limited. What and how and why to deal with that is another subject altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Mrjukes21 said: what do you have to say about the comments that say jesus is real? The majority of people, both Christian and atheist, think that Jesus probably did exist. The question is whether he was just a charismatic preacher or something supernatural. The mythicists position has to prove a negative, which is a hard thing to do in this case. There is enough of an argument to leave a degree of doubt, but not enough to be a clear cut case. Personally the charismatic preacher theory seems most likely, as this fits with how cults commonly grow (John Smith, Ron Hubbard, Muhammed, Jonestown etc). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 On 2/23/2021 at 4:29 PM, poci said: So sorry guys it’s been like a hella while since I last blogged just been very busy yah know. If there was like an app it be easier for me. Anyways, as some of you know I’m a potential christian, I’ve been asking ex Christians I know why the think it’s wrong for awhile now so I could make an educated desistion on my worldview. My Q for today is, if anyone has found a better theory for the Ressurection of Christ yet? So far other explanations aren’t very convincing for me. And please don’t attack me I’m not here to convert nobody, I just have honest questions and concerns I wanna talk to someone about without being seen as a stupid monster. I consider Christianity to be a very, very childish collection of mythology that preys upon people's fear of death. It is not necessary for a good life, and some of its primary "features" actually get in the way of a good life. If you tell yourself that you were born evil and deserve to be burned forever for something that isn't even in your control, unless you acquiesce to letting Jesus die in your place, you do severe chronic psychological damage that can take decades to undo. Don't go there. It's a long, long trip back. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 14 hours ago, Mrjukes21 said: what do you have to say about the comments that say jesus is real? He may have been real 2000 years ago. If he's real now, it's only as a cluster of dry, disjointed bones in a Roman mass grave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Astreja said: If he's real now, it's only as a cluster of dry, disjointed bones in a Roman mass grave Wild, baseless assertion... How do you know his bones are dry? Could be quite moist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBigV Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 Here is how I look at the Resurrection apologetics. And I do recommend you watch or listen to a debate on the Resurrection by Arif Ahmed and Gary Habermaas. I think Arif has very clever arguments against the resurrection. Basically, what Christians are doing, they are knocking down all the natural explanations (stolen body, swoon theory, mass hallucinations) and knocking them down as something that is highly unlikely. And then they propose a supernatural resurrection as the only viable alternative. However, as Arif argued, this conclusion is pre-mature, because once you are open to the supernatural explanations for something, you now need to consider other supernatural options. For example, perhaps there could be a supernatural hallucinations, where 500+ people could be hallucinating. Or perhaps Satan stole the body, so it was a supernatural theft, etc.. I am now leaning towards the position of a Jesus myth. I think the Gospels support this hypothesis. You see, when we read the Gospels, we find this curious bit where the people think that Jesus (before he died) was considered to be the risen John the Baptist. Mark 6: 14 King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.” 15 Others said, “He is Elijah.” And still others claimed, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of long ago.” So, Jesus starts out his ministry, he and his disciples healings and the people say... this is John raised from the dead. And supposedly, this wrong opinion persists. And what does Jesus say? Mark 8: 27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?” 28 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” 29 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.” 30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him. Why would Jesus warn his disciples to not tell anyone about him? This is very suspicious. It could be a clever way to explain why nobody heard about this Jesus. Imagine going back in time and visiting Galilee around 30s AD. If the Gospels are true, we would expect nobody (except the disciples) to hear about Jesus. As everyone would think that John the Baptist rose from the dead. Christian Apologists typically don't touch these passages. For one, they show that the people could be convinced a resurrection happened even without an actual resurrection. Secondly, we actually have a testimony of John's resurrection from a hostile witness (i.e. Christians have recorded this even though Christians disagree that John rose from the dead). And this is better than anything Christians have. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBigV Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 Here is the link to the debate I mentioned in the previous post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg7rYJxHA4Y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Hierophant Posted February 27 Moderator Report Share Posted February 27 Poci, Ultimately, if you want to be a Christian, well, it is your life and your decision. That being said, it should be something you dive into because you think it is real, there is truth in the claims of Christianity. Myself, and I recognize a few others here, are truth seekers. We want to know what is real and remove as many false beliefs from our minds as possible. That being said, I have investigated the claims of Christianity, and I do not think there is good or sufficient evidence to warrant the idea it is somehow the reality we are operating in. I recognized the mindset you are viewing this from when I read your post, I too used to think like that. My mind was so orientated towards the assertion Christianity was true, that skeptics needed to provide alternate plausible reasons about why Christianity's claims were not what they were, I thought the onus was on the skeptics to come up with something better; an alternate explanation. Over time I realized that I was placing the onus on the wrong group. If someone is making a claim, then it is on that person to substantiate the veracity of their claim and provide good evidence of why it is true, not the other way around. Moreover, it should be sufficient evidence. Things like testimonies, personal experience (this is the major claim of most Christians I come across - including my former self), and pseudo-history may fall into the category of evidence, but it is very weak evidence. I will give you an example, did you know that eye witness testimony is one of the worst standards of evidence? Memory is a finicky thing and people, by and large, do not have a photographic memory. Studies have shown that people fill in the gaps, get details wrong, etc. Bart Ehrman wrote a book that covers this topic. If I remember correctly (there goes that memory problem), it was Jesus Before the Gospels. I saw you made the comment about the overwhelming evidence for Christianity. If you think there is good evidence, I would like to see it, because I do not want to be wrong. As @Joshpantera said, I have scoured the evidence and I have debated with Christians, I have yet to see any real evidence for any of what Christianity claims. I will give you a personal example of what I mean: My first major doubt in Christianity was that no contemporary historian (someone living at the time Jesus was supposed to live) ever wrote anything about a Jesus actually doing miracles or the other things the Bible claims Jesus did. As a believer, I could not believe it. My thought was, "if Jesus really did these things, how did history completely miss it?" A apologist would respond by saying something like this, "well, who is to say it wasn't written down, but was then lost to time." Okay, that is fair; but then again, if that were the case, why would God allow evidence that would be very beneficial to be destroyed in history? Does God not want all men to repent and be saved (2 Peter)? Why would he make it impossible to validate anything the Bible is saying? In that same vein, the events in Matthew 27 were just impossible to choke down. How do a bunch of dead saints come out of the grave and go through Jerusalem and no contemporary writings validate it, not even the other gospels. That has to be impossible. Now we have a major problem, if there are falsehoods in the Bible, by which method do we go about picking out truth from fiction? Do we act like the Protestant Rationalist who say all miracles in the Bible are not really miracles, but can be explained by methodological naturalism? Do we exert authority over the Bible and determine what is truth, what is folklore, and what is non-applicable? It is exactly that mindset of why there are 30,000 denominations of Christianity. Once the Bible is open to interpretation, everyone has their own idea of what that truth is. Christianity is all over the map. I spent years trying to figure it out and I realized there are no answers. It is like chasing the wind to have any kind of certainty on Bible interpretation and historical claims. I am not an Ex-Christian because "I want to sin," or "the church hurt me," or "I believe God exist but I don't really want him to." No, I left Christianity because I could not find any real answers. Before I deconverted, I realized what a mess Christianity really was and that I was just deluding myself thinking I could come to a point of certainty and everyone else had it wrong. I begged God to meet with me for an hour so I could know the truth and get on the right path. If there really was a God who was good, and wanted people to give up everything for him, then surely he would grant my request. I was willing to give this God everything they supposedly wanted. I even asked God to send me a messenger if he could not make it, so long as it was not another human. When none of my request were answered, I concluded either God is not there, or he does not care; both of which would mean the God of the Bible is not real. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBigV Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 On 2/23/2021 at 4:29 PM, poci said: So sorry guys it’s been like a hella while since I last blogged just been very busy yah know. If there was like an app it be easier for me. Anyways, as some of you know I’m a potential christian, I’ve been asking ex Christians I know why the think it’s wrong for awhile now so I could make an educated desistion on my worldview. My Q for today is, if anyone has found a better theory for the Ressurection of Christ yet? So far other explanations aren’t very convincing for me. And please don’t attack me I’m not here to convert nobody, I just have honest questions and concerns I wanna talk to someone about without being seen as a stupid monster. May I ask, what do you expect to gain out of Christianity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christianchat_Chat Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 On 2/23/2021 at 5:29 PM, poci said: So sorry guys it’s been like a hella while since I last blogged just been very busy yah know. If there was like an app it be easier for me. Anyways, as some of you know I’m a potential christian, I’ve been asking ex Christians I know why the think it’s wrong for awhile now so I could make an educated desistion on my worldview. My Q for today is, if anyone has found a better theory for the Ressurection of Christ yet? So far other explanations aren’t very convincing for me. not an ex-Christian, but ... i would suggest you study into the history of Christianity. from my understanding of it - it has changed much over time and many people could have/seem to have changed things in it and understandings of it over time - a LOT in ways. also, the Bible speaks of elementary understandings, and of the going beyond, to a maturing in Christ (in understandings of things, like of - EVERYTHING, i believe - for one thing). i wouldn't get stuck in just one way of believing as a Christian too too much (or in any other religion either or system of thought or belief for too long [or disbelief - as the case seems to be very much here on this site]). there is probably, most likely truth in most religions, and in many things out there (it's a big world) but i would suggest to "test the spirits" always as the Bible says - anywhere, everywhere, keep an open mind. don't close it down too much lest you can't learn something important. dont just listen to logic or facts, but use all that you have (wisely as you can, no one is perfect, so don't be too hard on yourself) - knowledge, intuition, logic, conscience, your heart, your feelings, your body, your mind, experience, experiences while living, the past, the present, the future - whether waking, dreaming, sleeping, ect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBigV Posted February 27 Report Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Christianchat_Chat said: "test the spirits" always as the Bible says When this text was written, the Scriptures consisted of the Old Testament, right? So what do we say about a spirit who tells you to ignore Moses and pretty much most of the Old Testament? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christianchat_Chat Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 6 hours ago, SuperBigV said: When this text was written, the Scriptures consisted of the Old Testament, right? So what do we say about a spirit who tells you to ignore Moses and pretty much most of the Old Testament? there was a time when the Old Testament didn't exist. there may come a time when both the Old and New don't exist anymore. people may still wonder about things though, will still want to know what is true (depending on how far advanced at any time in the future people may be). some may even believe they have discovered the truth and decide to write books about it. years and years later others may come across their words and books and wonder what all it means. some may decide they know what it means. but the truth will still be true - no matter what some write, and others decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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