Absolute Morals

[KT45]

I was always interested in this. When it comes to the bible there are a list of rules that create the morals for the society at that time. Some believe that those morals are always correct and others believe that there was reason behind the moral laws created and that there can be exceptions. Well I was wondering.....Can you think of anything that is either always immoral or always moral?

 

I start off with a few. If possible debate with counter examples on whether the act in question can be considered moral or immoral.

 

Always Immoral

pedophilia - sleeping with children to me is always immoral no matter the circumstance. I define children as a human who hasn't reached puberty.

 

Rape - having sex with someone against there will is always immoral.

 

adultery - It's always immoral to sleep with someone else's spouse

 

Cannablism - Is always an immoral practice

 

Always Moral

The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you

(My counter example for when it is immoral)- This Rule basically would allow masochist hurt others since they want to be hurt.

[Asimov]

Always Immoral

pedophilia - sleeping with children to me is always immoral no matter the circumstance. I define children as a human who hasn't reached puberty.

 

why?

 

Rape - having sex with someone against there will is always immoral.

 

Why?

 

adultery - It's always immoral to sleep with someone else's spouse

 

Why?

 

Cannablism - Is always an immoral practice

 

Why?

 

Always Moral

The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you

(My counter example for when it is immoral)- This Rule basically would allow masochist hurt others since they want to be hurt.

 

Why?

[KT45]

pedofila is always wrong because the child is not mentally and physically mature enough to give consent to the act. When would it be okay to do such an act?

 

Rape is always wrong because you are disregarding the will of another person and cause emotional damage to a person and possibly physical damage as well. When is rape okay?

 

adultery - It's always immoral to sleep with someone else's spouse

 

Why?

You're breaking a commitment that you made with your spouse or assisting someone break that commitment. When is adultery not immoral?

 

Cannablism - Is always an immoral practice

 

Why?

Can't think of one right now. They don't taste well with gravy?

 

Always Moral

The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you

(My counter example for when it is immoral)- This Rule basically would allow masochist hurt others since they want to be hurt.

 

Why?

You didn't read my counter example did you?

[chefranden]

pedophilia - sleeping with children to me is always immoral no matter the circumstance. I define children as a human who hasn't reached puberty.

 

In my mind always imoral. Outside my mind, I don't know. Just because I can't think of any circumstance that would justify it doesn't mean there aren't any. If I saw you doing it, I'd probably shoot first and ask questions later. Would that be immoral?

 

Rape - having sex with someone against there will is always immoral.

 

In my mind always imoral. The bible doesn't seem to think so though.

 

adultery - It's always immoral to sleep with someone else's spouse

 

What immoral about sleeping? If you mean fucking, well not if the spouse is a consenting adult. If anyone is being immoral it is the spouse not me.

 

Cannablism - Is always an immoral practice

 

No, but it is probably always unhealthy.

 

Always Moral

The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you

(My counter example for when it is immoral)- This Rule basically would allow masochist hurt others since they want to be hurt.

 

You have just shown it is not always moral.

[Ouroboros]

First off, I consider pedophilia disgusting, so bear with me with my little reply here.

 

Pedophilia is a very new concept. Kids were considered adults already at age 12 just a few hundred years ago (or less) in this country, and sex with (what we today call) minors, were not outlawed. In some cultures "kids" get marriage, and many are betrothed at 9. Do you know that tradition say that Isaac got married to Rebecca when she was about 12-14? So what is pedophilia? It is something we've made up in our society after we established that kids are kids and not adults, and have a unique protection from the state. (Which I consider the right thing to do, call it moral if you so want.) But it didn't exist before modern society.

 

If we look at pure natural and biological facts, and if we admit that evolution is true and that there is no god making up the morals, then a woman or boy are ready sexually when their body is ready. That's the natural view.

 

Secondly, religion does not establish pedophilia or make it immoral. But the opposite. Like the 12 year olds getting married, happens in the more religious countries than in the secular western world. Pedophilia has grown out from a secular and social society, not religious.

 

Still, my own opinion is that kids should be kids until they're old enough to make the right calls. They shouldn't be forced to sexual acts.

 

When it comes to rape, at least many religions claim it immoral, and it has been so for a long time. But consider too that these religions (including OT) take rape very lightly. The rapist have to pay some fees and/or marry the raped girl. While blasphemy against god has a death penalty.

 

Adultery isn't really immoral in my book, but it's unethical (maybe I'm confused and moral and ethics are the same thing?). I see marriage as a business contract in that sense. You don't break your word, and you have a "contract". But I would not judge or condemn anyone that would commit adultery.

 

Cannibalism I don't see as immoral or unethical at all, but very sick and sign of mental disease. I wouldn't call an animal immoral, so I wouldn't call a person that have no brain do the same thing. He's just crazy. Besides it's not healthy to do so. The mad cow disease spreads through cows eathing cow meat (especially brain tissue). And there are similar virus in humans that can spread the same way. So no, I don't think it's good, but I don't give a judgment against a loony that does it.

 

I think it all goes back to the Golden Rule (which was not invented by Jesus). But it should go even further, everyone should have the same right and same protection, and no one should be forced to things they don't want to do. But there are exceptions from this rule too. Moral and ethics are not clear cut but have many ins and outs that complicated the issue.

 

Morals and ethics are based on common ideas that have been accepted in the "group". This groups starts with your family, and grows outwards to friends, work, living place, community, state, country and the world. The ideas grow and change over time, and are adjusted (through spreading of memeplexes) slowly to fit new culture and new problems.

 

 

Here's a question back to you. Is death penalty murder according to the 10 commandments, and hence immoral?

[KT45]

pedophilia - sleeping with children to me is always immoral no matter the circumstance. I define children as a human who hasn't reached puberty.

 

In my mind always imoral. Outside my mind, I don't know. Just because I can't think of any circumstance that would justify it doesn't mean there aren't any. If I saw you doing it, I'd probably shoot first and ask questions later. Would that be immoral?

I think I'd join in on the shooting! There are cases when murder or killing are moral and in this case it is to save someone who is innocent. But as far as pedophila goes if I can't find a instance where it is moral or even slightly moral to do the act then to me it is always immoral. I just want to see if absolute morals can exist.

 

Rape - having sex with someone against there will is always immoral.

 

In my mind always imoral. The bible doesn't seem to think so though.

The bible allows a lot of things that most would consider immoral today. So instead of arguing biblical morals I just want to look at ethics.

 

adultery - It's always immoral to sleep with someone else's spouse

 

What immoral about sleeping? If you mean fucking, well not if the spouse is a consenting adult. If anyone is being immoral it is the spouse not me.

So if someone had sex with your wife then you wouldn't consider that person immoral? If you mean that the husband gave his spouse to someone to sleep with I guess it's not immoral since there is consent.

 

Here is some more

 

Always Immoral

pedophilia - sleeping with children to me is always immoral no matter the circumstance. I define children as a human who hasn't reached puberty.

 

Rape - having sex with someone against there will is always immoral.

 

Modified Adultery - It is always immoral to sleep with someone's spouse behind that spouses back.

 

Cannablism

 

Always Moral

Modified Golden Rule - Do not do to others what they would not want you to do to them

[Ouroboros]

I just want to see if absolute morals can exist.

In my mind it doesn't, since from the example, killing can be justified. So the absolute moral "do not kill" doesn't work. But Ssel (a former debater on this site) tried to explain that the "do not kill" shouldn't be seen as the "one" rule, but only as the starting point for the rules (or laws). Even if some killing is justified, in general killing shouldn't be. So "do not kill" can be translated to "in most cases killing is wrong". It's like the constitution and the amendments. The constitution establish the basic idea of freedom and liberty, while the amendments clarify it. The absolute moral would be the starting point, but it isn't the ending point, but has to be extrapolated into more explanations. (Would that make "do not kill" the axiom?)

 

(Does it sound confusing? It probably does. It must be the margarita... )

 

-edit-

 

But then again, pedophilia is to me outrageous and always wrong. So in a sense that is absolute wrong. I can't think of a situation where it would be justified... exept for the cultures that still do the kids marriages.

 

But what would happen if the age limit was changed? Say 20 years old instead. Now all of a sudden everyone that thinks that 18 year old hot chick is very sexy (and have steamy fantasies) are now a pedophile!

 

Oops, i just realized you clarified that you considered the pedophilia when adults have sex with kids before they have reached puberty. Yeah. Not good. It's abuse, just like hitting or torturing the kid. Not right.

[KT45]

I think it all goes back to the Golden Rule (which was not invented by Jesus). Everyone should have the same right and same protection, and no one should be forced to things they don't want to do.

Yes these are the responses I wanted. So do you consider following your version of the golden rule to be always morally acceptable? What about prisioners, mental patients? They are forced to do things they don't want to do and don't have the same rights and same protection. So people that do that keep them locked up are immoral. If you think that doing so is still moral you have to rewrite your golden rule to apply to all people in order for it to be absolute.

 

Here's a question back to you. Is death penalty murder according to the 10 commandments, and hence immoral?

Well it depends on what ten commandments you want to use. If it's the "thou shalt not kill" then killing someone even with the death penalty is always murder. If you use this one then the bible is immoral on many occasions. If it's "thou shalt not murder" you have to define what murder is for me.

 

 

 

I just want to see if absolute morals can exist.

In my mind it doesn't, since from the example, killing can be justified. So the absolute moral "do not kill" doesn't work. But Ssel (a former debater on this site) tried to explain that the "do not kill" shouldn't be seen as the "one" rule, but only as the starting point for the rules (or laws). Even if some killing is justified, in general killing shouldn't be. So "do not kill" can be translated to "in most cases killing is wrong". (Does it sound confusing? It probably does. It must be the margarita... )

 

I agree that some of the morals that people feel are "absolute" aren't really absolute morals. This includes murder, lying, stealing, betrayal and many more. I can give examples why but I'm sure many can think of some. But I do believe that there are some absolute morals and those are the ones I'm trying to define. Even your example of pedofila kids were given away as wife at an early age. Some as early as 7 for prearranged marriages. But usually the consumation of marriage didn't occur until the child reached puberty (for girls around 12 or 13). To me sleeping with a child before puberty is always immoral and is absolute moral.

[Ouroboros]

Yes these are the responses I wanted. So do you consider following your version of the golden rule to be always morally acceptable? What about prisioners, mental patients? They are forced to do things they don't want to do and don't have the same rights and same protection. So people that do that keep them locked up are immoral. If you think that doing so is still moral you have to rewrite your golden rule to apply to all people in order for it to be absolute.

I hear ya'. I thought about it and modified my post a bit before you posted this response:

I think it all goes back to the Golden Rule (which was not invented by Jesus). But it should go even further, everyone should have the same right and same protection, and no one should be forced to things they don't want to do. But there are exceptions from this rule too. Moral and ethics are not clear cut but have many ins and outs that complicated the issue.

That's why we have lawmakers. But are laws always moral? Tough question.

 

Well it depends on what ten commandments you want to use. If it's the "thou shalt not kill" then killing someone even with the death penalty is always murder. If you use this one then the bible is immoral on many occasions. If it's "thou shalt not murder" you have to define what murder is for me.

Very true. What is murder? And what is killing? Again that's what the law established (but maybe it doesn't always is agreable to everyone, and does it make moral?)

 

Btw, I like your thought process. You're not as ingrown and spiderweb-filled-brain as many other Christians that come here.

[KT45]

dang you beat me on the pedofila thing!!!!

 

I love your avatar!!!

[KT45]

Btw, I like your thought process. You're not as ingrown and spiderweb-filled-brain as many other Christians that come here.

 

I think my avatar is a little misleading. I picked that avatar cause it's funny to me. Christianity is supposed to not advocate violence. By me having a avatar that shows "Karate for Christ" I'm showing christians actively participating in a War Art in the name of a Christ. I don't know it was funny when I thought of it.

 

I think I fit more in the categoery of liberal christian. I follow the universal salvation belief and I don't believe in legalism in the bible. I generally just want to follow the concept of love I believe Jesus is supposed to represent and just become a more warm and loving person. But I'm not really a liberal christian since reject the "title" christianity. Don't get me wrong believe the whole Jesus died for my sins stuff but because of how I follow christ most people wouldn't call me a "REAL" christian. I don't go to chruch and I study other religions so I would have to explain why I own a Koran or have books on buddhism etc. So I said forget it. I don't want to try to belong or feel the need to belong to a certian group to find comfort. This includes Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. Instead I just call myself a "Student" since I search for wisdom in all religions. And no I'm not a universalist cause I'm not accepting all faiths as true but instead believe that if there are knowledge and wisdom in a specific writing that will help me grow why not read it.

 

I guess I should have wrote that under the Ex-Christian testomies but I didn't really feel I fit in with the other posters since I still follow christ.

[KT45]

Here is some more

 

Always Immoral

pedophilia - sleeping with children to me is always immoral no matter the circumstance. I define children as a human who hasn't reached puberty.

 

Rape - having sex with someone against there will is always immoral.

 

Modified Adultery - It is always immoral to sleep with someone's spouse behind that spouses back.

 

Cannablism

 

Always Moral

Modified Golden Rule - Do not do to others what they would not want you to do to them

I wanted to modify my list. I guess rape could be considered moral in order to preserve the species but there aren't any exception to my modified adultery rule, or cannablism rule. Also my modified Golden Rule is always moral.

Well so far at least

[♦ nivek ♦]

100 pound hammer time.

 

The "Golden Rule" is more properly looked at with a realists eye as simply "he who has the Gold, makes the Rules."

 

If one has the geld, gun, club or lever on the *others* what *they say* is the Rules.

 

As long as you have no other venue of complaint and can compel someone to change their mind, Korts, Revolution, Assination, Murder, etc, then you are simply gonna do as you are told, and like it.

 

When it boils down to things, if the Geld Holder wants to fuck animals and children but prevent his subjects from doing so, thats what happens.

 

You personal code of justice and morality has not a frackin' thing to do with what the rest of the world around you does.

 

If you don't want to bed kids and critters, don't. You won't have me looking for you after you take my sub-teen child. (Trust me, no one wants a pissed off mean old armed man going after them...)

 

Don't like to hose your neighbors over, create problems and raise hell? Cool, you might not be in the 'scope this morning slightly after I wake up grumpy and *need* to find an outlet..

 

Every code and list of Rules is simply self preservation codified and made presentable for a majority of persons who might follow such.

 

After readig this thread I feel that Taylor has a well defined set of *ethics*, not "rules".

An ethical person does not go about fucking over those around him just because he can.

 

Those without a set of any self controlling ethics are usually outcast by the sheep anyway, made to stay apart from the flocks.

 

As for me? My ethos and -ics ar well set, but I wont have some black robed whore tell me what they consist of..

 

kL

[KT45]

As for me? My ethos and -ics ar well set, but I wont have some black robed whore tell me what they consist of..

 

kL

What's you got against black robed whores? LOL

 

But seriously you don't think that there is some universal moral or ethic shared by all or at least most cultures?

[Asimov]

Well, these (pedophilia, rape) really depends on if you mean only humans, only in a societal construct.

 

Since morality is only a social construct, you can't say that it is ALWAYS moral in an absolute sense. It is merely a projection of behaviours that we have developed in order for society to function properly.

 

adultery - It's always immoral to sleep with someone else's spouse

 

Why?

You're breaking a commitment that you made with your spouse or assisting someone break that commitment. When is adultery not immoral?

 

It's not a moral question, it's a value.

Cannablism - Is always an immoral practice

 

Why?

Can't think of one right now. They don't taste well with gravy?

 

So it's not bad.

 

You didn't read my counter example did you?

 

Yes, I did. I don't think the Golden Rule is a good rule at all though, and since it's not always moral...it really is irrelevant.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

As for me? My ethos and -ics ar well set, but I wont have some black robed whore tell me what they consist of..

 

kL

What's you got against black robed whores? LOL

 

But seriously you don't think that there is some universal moral or ethic shared by all or at least most cultures?

 

Certainly in the generic cultural sense, cultures do tend to share most moral values, hence they are cultures. In the case of the individual moral values it depends on the individual and there will be differences, especially cross cultural. Regardless, one could say that their morals come from their religion but just because a specific moral value is mentioned by a religion and thought to be created by their religion doesn't mean that a specific moral comes from that religion. Religions can adopt truths that are self-evident and prevalent. The biggest moral value in the New Testament is the Golden Rule, but it was stated by Confucius over 300 years before Jesus was even born. Does that make the Golden rule Confucianism? Nope. Just like it doesn't make the Golden Rule a Christian value. Give me one moral from Christianity and I'll give you the same moral from an older culture.

 

Even the laws in the books of Exodus mirror the Code of Hammurabi and older laws scribed on clay tablets from Assyria before the Exodus supposedly took place. You can beat it with a stick but you still come up with the same answer, moral values come from people and not from religion.

[white_raven23]

What is so immoral about cannibalism? Who does it harm? One person chowing down on an already dead person....that harms no one (unless obviously murder was committed so the cannibalism could take place.....but the true immorality has already taken place with said murder).

 

And Kuru....(Mad cow in humans) requires a long history of consumption.

 

Info on Kuru:

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant570/Pap...ath/McGrath.htm

 

Now if you are talking about people who do NOT have a history of cannibalism of people who themselves were cannibals.....the only way you are going to manage to get Kuru would be if you happened to cannibalize a New Guinea South Fore tribesmember.

 

The odds of such a person being present the moment any one of us may need to engage in cannibalism to survive...pretty slim.

 

And if cannibalism is so immoral, then what about those rugby players who did it to survive in the Andes?

 

You said cannibalism was immoral. You did not exclude in any way 'survival cannibalism' which I find pretty offensive towards the few people who have ever been pushed to that extreme. That's not an easy decision to come to......but the people who have overcome the 'final taboo' are at least still around to enjoy the life that circumstance tried to take from them. And you have the gall to call that immoral?

 

Cannibalism has a long though mostly secret history. There isn't a civilization in the world that has not engaged in it at one time or other.

 

My cannibalism library is pretty extensive, so I've learned enough to not be so foolish as to condem that which my everyday life fortunately preserves me from. Other people on the planet aren't so lucky.

[Ouroboros]

I don't TaylorK is hunting for any admission to if Christian have the moral code or such, but he's trying to find an answer if there could be some kind of a fixed or generic moral that is shared with all cultures and religions. Not necessarely a complete moral code, but is there at least one that all can say we all have. And it could be an absolute that we all could agree that is always right or wrong. Do I understand you right Taylor?

[white_raven23]

Well that's understandable, but his 'absolutes' need some fine tuning. Very little is absolute in the world. The more you learn about it, you find fewer and fewer absolutes. What works as a moral blueprint for one society, doesn't work for another.

 

The Golden Rule (a concept OLDER than the Bible) comes the closest to managing true multicultural spread.

[theunraveler]

 

 

Always Immoral

pedophilia - sleeping with children to me is always immoral no matter the circumstance. I define children as a human who hasn't reached puberty.

 

Due to my 20th century upbringing I have to concede I feel pedophilia is immoral, but remember that pedophilia is as old as any other sexual deviant behavior that has always existed since time immemorial. It used to be quite fashionable to have sex with kids in the past.

 

Rape - having sex with someone against there will is always immoral.

As above minus the "fashionable part"

adultery - It's always immoral to sleep with someone else's spouse

As above

Cannablism - Is always an immoral practice

No, if I was forced between starvation and cannabilism I would cheefully choose the latter. In some culture , they eat their own dead and their enemies dead. But again as time goes on, this tradition is falling out of favour

 

Always Moral

The Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you

(My counter example for when it is immoral)- This Rule basically would allow masochist hurt others since they want to be hurt.

Amen, that is my principle in life with a minor deviation. Do to others what you want others to do to you and if they seek to harm me then do it first before they do unto you.

[All Gods Fail]

The thing is to define morality before you argue about absolutes. How exactly should humans define 'moral'?

 

Seems easy enough, don't you think?

[theunraveler]

The thing is to define morality before you argue about absolutes. How exactly should humans define 'moral'?

 

Seems easy enough, don't you think?

honestly i feel that "moral" is a human construct. society cannot function when ppl act on their own interests and desires, humans being social animals tend to congregate together and it will not serve the interest of the community at large if everyone starts to do their own thing regardless of other ppl's feelings and interest. therefore morality evolved as a need for order in a community, especially when the man was juz a fledgling species on this planet and we needed each other for survival

[KT45]

I don't TaylorK is hunting for any admission to if Christian have the moral code or such, but he's trying to find an answer if there could be some kind of a fixed or generic moral that is shared with all cultures and religions. Not necessarely a complete moral code, but is there at least one that all can say we all have. And it could be an absolute that we all could agree that is always right or wrong. Do I understand you right Taylor?

 

couldn't have worded it better myself

[KT45]

Well that's understandable, but his 'absolutes' need some fine tuning. Very little is absolute in the world. The more you learn about it, you find fewer and fewer absolutes. What works as a moral blueprint for one society, doesn't work for another.

 

The Golden Rule (a concept OLDER than the Bible) comes the closest to managing true multicultural spread.

 

I know I'm trying to fine tune all the potential absolutes but it starting to seem impossible.

 

I think that your right about cannabalism. Eating someone already dead or eating someone who willingly gave their body away to others can be considered moral. Therefore cannabalism isn't always immoral.

 

Also I thought about rape as well. Would rape be immoral if it is used as sort of a punishment? Maybe a culture would consider it justified if it was to punish a criminal.

 

As someone said before adultery isn't always immoral since you could be sleeping with someone in the process of divorce and not let them know. This in a sense is having sex with someones wife behind there back but not essentially immoral.

 

The only one I got is the Modified Golden Rule (since the original golden rule isn't always moral

so......

Always Moral

Modified Golden Rule - Do not do to others what they would want you to do to them (and just in case someone mentions prisioners) unless they present a threat to those around them.

 

Always Moral

Modified Golden Rule - Do not do to others what they would want you to do to them (and just in case someone mentions prisioners) unless they present a threat to those around them.

 

correction (there isn't an edit button on my thing)

Always Moral

Modified Golden Rule - Do not do to others what they would not want you to do to them (and just in case someone mentions prisioners) unless they present a threat to those around them.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

honestly i feel that "moral" is a human construct. society cannot function when ppl act on their own interests and desires, humans being social animals tend to congregate together and it will not serve the interest of the community at large if everyone starts to do their own thing regardless of other ppl's feelings and interest. therefore morality evolved as a need for order in a community, especially when the man was juz a fledgling species on this planet and we needed each other for survival

 

 

And you don't think they do? That's quite naive. Even when one acts for the benefit of others they are serving themselves whether by avoiding violence, hatred, conflict, etc. or looking for reward, pleasure, etc. You say one thing then counter it in the next sentence. You would have to find an absolutly alturistic act to convince me that someone acted without the slightest benefit for themselves; that would include excluding the promise of reward in an afterlife or bringing people to your cause.

 

All Gods Fail Posted Today, 02:25 AM

The thing is to define morality before you argue about absolutes. How exactly should humans define 'moral'?

 

Seems easy enough, don't you think?

 

Some people are using moral as "morally good" but that is understood by what they are describing and is a proper definition of moral. Immoral is the antonym of that. Morality, for most of these posts is the system of distinguishing right and wrong. Deciding where morality comes from is the semantics.

 

To find a common moral as an individual interpretation of right or wrong behavior that is shared by all cultures that one could consider absolute, one would have to research all cultures. Good luck. Finding an absolute "right" or "wrong" is would be even more difficult because then you would have to research every individual and every situation that the "right or wrong" could possibly occur in.