Mainstream/ alternative science discussions and arguments

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, pantheory said:

Hi Josh,

 

I was told by TheRedneckProfessor to take this argument to the Den, even though none of the arguments were mine since I always stated IMO. As you recall this discussion started by your thread in the science forum, concerning the science of the double slit experiment. I was explaining the possibility that woo physics was not necessary to explain the double slit experiment as proposed by your posted video.

 

Yeah, and that's what I mean by I personally like some of the content. Why not look at how the woo factor may be uncalled for? Seems reasonable to me.

 

The only issue is when it goes off to a personal theory direction and then becomes a pretty big argument. I don't want to give you too hard a time. I'm just looking for some sort of agreement to come to. With everyone involved. 

 

3 hours ago, pantheory said:

Walter objected to my explanations which was great, but he would not leave it alone. If you look back on the postings of this thread you will realize there was no self promotion. Walter cut and pasted many of my postings from a science forum many years ago just to ague them in this thread. All discussions/ arguments were instigated, and in response to postings by Walter. At first I thought he was arguing for his understand, but in this thread I realized that he just likes to argue and insult, period, so for that reason I certainly would not object if you wished to close this thread since I will no longer respond to Walter here, as I stated in my last posting.  Look at my polite postings to explain my past statements that he posted and quarried, and his continuously insulting responses.

 

If this is all correct then I apologize. My statements were glossing over several years of time. I just mean that over the years I've noticed what looks like self promoting your personal theory. If you want to close the thread, I can do that. Walter is doing what he thinks is correct. Furthering much of what BAA stood for. The arguments have run long, though. I don't mean to single you out or embarrass you. Or Walter. Like I said, I'm just looking for some resolve so this doesn't have to continue on and on. 

 

3 hours ago, pantheory said:

One of my main concerns in the X-Ch forum is that I don't want members or lurkers to exchange religion for science and then find out that the science was wrong and go back to religion, which I think could begin to happen within a few years because of the James Webb observations, concerning the BB model. I think all should know that there is more than a single science explanation for woo physics, such as quantum-physics explanations -- mainstream or not.

 

that's all for now Josh, best regards Forrest

 

That's a concern of mine as well. I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea about science either, and turn back to religion because they misunderstood the scope of science in the process. That would be very unhelpful. But I suspect that Walter would agree with us on that point. 

 

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

Josh, this thread became the Trial of Pantheory, by Prosecutor Walter. 

 

If we're going to say no more self-promotion by Pantheory, I think we should also disallow digging up bullshit from other webforums from 2015 to attempt to assassinate characters. 

 

Even digging up stuff that BAA said back in 20-whatever is irrelevant and irritating. BAA, while a nice guy, a logical guy, could get a little over the top about this stuff. I remember he didnt like Pantheory much. And he liked shutting down threads to stop people from talking. IMO. 

 

Thank you for chiming in. I'm curious what everyone else involved thinks about it. I don't want to lock the thread just yet until they've spoken. 

 

But I would like to ask @WalterP to cease arguing with Pantheory for now and allow the others involved to state their opinions. Pantheory doesn't want it. He's asked for it to stop. So Walter should stand down and let everyone have a chance to weigh in with their own opinions.

 

If no one has any opinion to state, I'll lock it down. 

 

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

Unless Pantheory is promoting Christianity ... and he's not ... I dont see an issue. Nor is he saying the moon is made of cheese. He has somewhat differing opinions about science. Big deal. 

 

Walter appears obsessed with making Pantheory look bad. To protect the Holy Science!

 

This is a pretty strong opinion. 

 

My only issue is with the non stop arguing, which, involves Walter cooling it down a bit. I agree. We don't need this big a drama over who thinks what about the standard model or particle - wave duality. My intention was to follow up our last CRACK POT christian with an actual look into the particle - wave duality issue. And then all of this happened.

 

Finally, I signed in today and thought WTF???

 

Why is this still going on and what can we do to get past this? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

I was prepared to let the boys sling mud in the Den. They are adults and if this is how they want to spend their time so be it. However, I've been summoned and thus I will give my opinion on the on going Pantheory vs WalterP smackdown 2021!

 

First, BAA was a good friend of mine. We exchanged many PM's and he was one of the people that helped me most here early on. Thus it peeves me off to see his name brought up in an attempt to win arguments. I agree with Midnite that he could be a pitbull with a bone in regards to science at times. Some people thought he was gatekeeping which I don't think he was, he was just very passionate about science and if you said something he thought was bullshit he'd bring you up on it. However, BAA has gone, and I think he'd agree that no scientific argument stands because his name is invoked from something he said back in 2018. Pantheory and BAA had their arguments. Let them lie there.

 

However, I am aware he was concerned about Pantheory, and his Pan Theory as an explanation for cosmology, and the confusion this could cause for new people, like myself, trying to come to grips with science after having been brought up a creationist. Pantheory asserts there are problems with current BB modelling and that his alternative explanation is correct. (It's more complicated than that, but forgive me I'm trying to be brief) The problem is that there is probably 1,000 other people all thinking they have the correct alternative explanation, except the vast majority of scientists disagree with them. The term "mainstream science" gets thrown around a bit of an ad hom. The reason it's "mainstream" is because the vast majority of scientist accept the findings. If Pantheory's Pan Theory turns out to be the correct model it will become mainstream. 

 

Enter WalterP, who from his firsts posts seemed to pick up BAA's mantle, if you will. I think there is a time and place to point out in a scientific discussion that involves newer people when someone might be using some alternative explanation that might muddy the waters and seek clarification. However, constantly going after Pantheory when there is no real cause for it is unneeded.  I agree with Pantheory that some of the language and tone used in these recent discussions is ungracious, and to me it seems clear that all but a blind person would conclude that Walter has an axe to grind. This, while possibly an interesting discussion on the correct forum, may not be the best discussion to have here. PM's are always an option, and if both parties agree, a summary of such a discussion could be reported in the science forum. Based on the years with BAA, and what we see here, I think it unlikely that there will be a resolution anytime soon. We'll have to wait for the JW telescope data to come in I think.

 

Now Pantheory has a concern as below:

Quote

 

One of my main concerns in the X-Ch forum is that I don't want members or lurkers to exchange religion for the belief in science, and then find out that the science was wrong and go back to religion, which I think could begin to happen within a few years because of the James Webb observations concerning the BB model. 

 

I share a similar concern, but the way to solve this issue is not to go around stating what we think might happen in the future, or that mainstream is the only way to go, but to teach people that science is a work in progress, it's not absolute, and only represents our current best understanding of the universe. At the moment, like it or not, out current best understanding is the BB model, flaws and all. IF future data shows that it's wrong I'm not going to burst into tears because it was wrong because I have built up an understanding of how science works without becoming attached to one theory over another.

 

Those are my thoughts. No offense was intended towards any party here, and there is no animosity. I think everyone here can and does contribute meaningfully to this forum. 

 

Regards

LF

[midniterider]

I do enjoy watching Walter destroy Christians. He has indeed taken up BAA's mantle as a crusader for scientific truth. And like Pantheory, Walter is a needed part of the force for Ex-Christian good here at this website. 

 

In this thread both parties have exchanged facts, comments, ideas, etc. That's really all that can be done short of trying to force someone to agree with you. I have tried to 'make' people accept my way of thinking. It's a waste of time and is kind of  like trying to steal someone's individuality. I can never get LF to accept that witchcraft is real, cant get my right leaning relatives to lean to the left. It just isnt going to happen. And it doesnt need to. 

 

Present your case and let the readers decide who's correct and how important it is to them. 

 

Walter has important stuff to say and I have gained something from his postings on the forum.

Pantheory has important stuff to say and I have gained something from his postings over the years.

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Midnite makes some great points above. He and I agree on much more than we disagree on.

 

A point of clarification though, BAA style. "Point of order" (And what I say below applies to God claims, or any supernatural claim)

 

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

I can never get LF to accept that witchcraft is real,...

 

It's not that I will never accept witchcraft, its that I have not been presented with evidence that convinces me that saying some spells or rituals, or thinking really hard or in the right way, or saying some words to some God produces an effect in and on reality. The moment I am presented with evidence that convinces me, I'll be convinced and accept the proposition. At this point thought witchcraft is consigned to the same basket as prayer - the believers' really really believe, but no reliable testable effect has been produced that convinces the non believers.

 

I did take part in a spell/ritual thing some years ago with Midnite, Josh and someone else. Pink roller skates were supposed to be seen. Never did seem them and I don't think anyone else did either. That of course doesn't prove that witchcraft doesn't work, but for the non believer it does suggest withholding belief until evidence is produced is the rational course of action.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

It's time for this ax-grinding to end.  I've been fed up with it since it first spilled over into the Rants forum.  I had hoped that the couple of warnings I gave there would get Walter's attention; but he seems to have only gotten more aggressive.  Pantheory might be misguided in his science; but there was a time when Galileo was thought wrong by those who were "mainstream."  Both parties have made clear their points for all to observe.  In my opinion, Pantheory has come out as "the bigger man" through the manner in which he's carried himself; but neither of these guys is going to "win" this argument.  Intelligence is knowing what to speak; wisdom is knowing when to speak and when not to.   Both of these guys are certainly intellient... Continuing to endlessly hound an issue (or a member) through multiple threads and forums seems childish and banal. 

 

If this thread gets locked, it needs to be with the explicit instruction that no more of this bullshit is going to be tolerated.  Disagreements are fine; we are a pretty contentious lot and arguing is our thing.  But this has gone beyond that; this has gotten personal.  We have a lot of good members here, who make a lot of good contributions; the hard truth is that the mission of this website doesn't need any one of us in particular.  It certainly calls into question if we can stand to lose one whose only ambition currently seems to be pointing out what someone else had for breakfast on April 12th 2007 before posting on sciencedweeb.com.

[Joshpantera]

9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

It's time for this ax-grinding to end.  I've been fed up with it since it first spilled over into the Rants forum.  I had hoped that the couple of warnings I gave there would get Walter's attention; but he seems to have only gotten more aggressive.  Pantheory might be misguided in his science; but there was a time when Galileo was thought wrong by those who were "mainstream."  Both parties have made clear their points for all to observe.  In my opinion, Pantheory has come out as "the bigger man" through the manner in which he's carried himself; but neither of these guys is going to "win" this argument.  Intelligence is knowing what to speak; wisdom is knowing when to speak and when not to.   Both of these guys are certainly intellient... Continuing to endlessly hound an issue (or a member) through multiple threads and forums seems childish and banal. 

 

Another strong opinion. Which I agree with too. I don't want to play favorites or embarrass any one. But this ax-grinding has gone over the top. Pantheory has tried to handle it well. Even though he's being lamb basted through the ordeal. There's no winning this argument, I agree 100%

 

9 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If this thread gets locked, it needs to be with the explicit instruction that no more of this bullshit is going to be tolerated.  Disagreements are fine; we are a pretty contentious lot and arguing is our thing.  But this has gone beyond that; this has gotten personal.  We have a lot of good members here, who make a lot of good contributions; the hard truth is that the mission of this website doesn't need any one of us in particular.  It certainly calls into question if we can stand to lose one whose only ambition currently seems to be pointing out what someone else had for breakfast on April 12th 2007 before posting on sciencedweeb.com.

 

That's why I opted not to lock it just yet. I think we do need the explicit instruction that no more of the personal attacking is going to be tolerated. I figured you guys were getting fed up with seeing this too. Instead of discussing it privately, I figured that this is better aired out publicly and utilized as fair warning to all reading along.  

 

The problem is that it looks like Pantheory is getting bullied around. And he's asking for the bullying to stop. And we're the authorities who will ultimately have to stop it, per his request.

 

I assume that Walter hasn't been looking at it that way. And probably doesn't think that he was bullying. But that's how it's turned out. So we need it stopped and we all need to move on. 

 

If this pisses anyone off too much, well, they're free to leave if they want. 

 

But no more bullying or personal attacks.

 

That's the judgement call.