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The Firmi Paradox:

If it is likely that there are other intelligent alien civilizations out there, then why don’t we have clear evidence that they have been to Earth in the past, or are here now? Or do we have such evidence?

From one of our Christian discussion forums I saw the mention of this topic so I thought I’d put it in the science forum to see if there was an interest in it for such a science-based discussion-- or any other related discussion of aliens since this is "Science vs. Religion."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

Although some believe there is evidence for aliens having already been here in the past, such as the book Chariots of the Gods, most of science believes such ideas and so-called evidence are closer to fantasy, while acknowledging the possibility of it. There have been lots of cool movies about it, and almost countless sci-fi books.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F

If you are interested in this topic,  post your comments.  if not I won’t bother to give my own opinions since I consider it speculation, but the beginnings of nearly all valid hypothesis began as speculation.

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Speculation: Without it , a lot of research would not have been done, a lot of things would not have been invented.

 

One answer might be there are a lot of planets to explore. Maybe the aliens just haven't gotten around to visiting Earth yet. 

 

Have there been any more "wow" signals since 1977? Anyway, your question has spurred me to read up on exoplanets. :) 

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Yeah, I'm not familiar what they have claimed as WoW signals. Like yourself I am aware of just one such claim but that signal, as I recall, was never heard from again. One of the hypothesis is that the signal came from Earth somehow, as a reflection etc.

 

My belief about this is that there is much life out there in our galaxy, and much of it might be quite different from Earth-life. IMO the reason why we haven' heard from extra-terrestrial aliens is because intelligent life like our own is much rarer than we currently believe, relating to the Drake equation, the details of which are shown below.

 

"The following are some of the facts that together serve to highlight the apparent contradiction:

  • There are billions of stars in the Milky Way similar to the Sun
  • With high probability, some of these stars have Earth-like planets
  • Many of these stars, and hence their planets, are much older than the Sun.If the Earth is typical, some may have developed intelligent life long ago.
  • Some of these civilizations may have developed interstellar travel, a step humans are investigating now.
  • Even at the slow pace of currently envisioned interstellar travel, the Milky Way galaxy could be completely traversed in a few million years.
  • And since many of the stars similar to the Sun are billions of years older, the Earth should have already been visited by extraterrestrial civilizations, or at least their probes."

 

         But there is no convincing evidence that this has happened.

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Interdimensional travel has to be considered too. As well as the fact that we are only dealing in terms of things that we have and can currently conceive of. 

 

With a civilization much older than us, I think it's logical to assume the potential technologies that could be involved would be beyond our current conception. Just go back several thousand years here on earth. How conceivable would an iphone be? Or a lap top? Just a few examples. Imagine technology from someone millions of years more advanced? 

 

What are we looking for? Primitive radio signals that could represent a point of civilization millions of years old by now on some other planet? What if we aren't looking in the right directions? 

 

We're looking at the particle-wave duality in today's science. Noticing the wave the structure of matter. What if that's the road to higher advancement? And communication and travel can happen in ways we just don't even conceive of at the moment? 

 

There's a hell of a lot of questions and considerations that can go back and fourth on this issue. 

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It seems to me it would be inevitable to have life elsewhere in the universe whether we ever encounter it or not. It's a big universe. Why anyone would seek out our planet escapes me, but someone could stumble upon it as we occasionally stumble upon an anthill.

 

What would you deem to be evidence of extraterrestrial visitation? There are plenty of photos and videos that pass the smell test. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of eyewitness reports from very qualified observers in aviation and the military. We have records of radar anomalies. Governments take it seriously as they are the first to any supposed crash site and immediately take measures to keep the public away. Lastly, I'm a skeptic by nature but two others and myself had a close encounter, maybe 150 yards, and either I'm insane or it really happened. It's been 35 years and no other signs of insanity have developed. Intellectually I want to reject it, but I saw what I saw. I don't expect anyone to believe my story; I wouldn't.

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41 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Interdimensional travel has to be considered too. As well as the fact that we are only dealing in terms of things that we have and can currently conceive of. 

 

With a civilization much older than us, I think it's logical to assume the potential technologies that could be involved would be beyond our current conception. Just go back several thousand years here on earth. How conceivable would an iphone be? Or a lap top? Just a few examples. Imagine technology from someone millions of years more advanced? 

 

What are we looking for? Primitive radio signals that could represent a point of civilization millions of years old by now on some other planet? We're looking at the particle-wave duality. Noticing the wave the structure of matter. What if that's the road to higher advancement? And communication and travel can happen in ways we just don't even conceive of at the moment? 

 

There's a hell of a lot of questions and considerations that can go back and fourth on this issue. 

 

Interdimensional travel, if at all possible, would decrease the odds that we would have seen extraterrestrial intelligent life already. The problem seems to be that we have no such evidence for such life as yet. Since the possibility of inter-dimensional travel seems to be untestable, some  would say that it  falls outside the domain of science and is simply untestable speculation.

 

Perhaps such intelligent life does not want to be perceived for their own reasons. Perhaps, as the Drake equation suggests, intelligent life destroys itself before it can spread within the galaxy. Perhaps it is destroyed by predators, decease, parasites, wars, and natural events of all sorts. Or perhaps intelligent life is more rare than we currently believe, as I mentioned above, and I expect a number of unmentioned but possible destruction events.

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6 minutes ago, florduh said:

It seems to me it would be inevitable to have life elsewhere in the universe whether we ever encounter it or not. It's a big universe. Why anyone would seek out our planet escapes me, but someone could stumble upon it as we occasionally stumble upon an anthill.

 

What would you deem to be evidence of extraterrestrial visitation? There are plenty of photos and videos that pass the smell test. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of eyewitness reports from very qualified observers in aviation and the military. We have records of radar anomalies. Governments take it seriously as they are the first to any supposed crash site and immediately take measures to keep the public away. Lastly, I'm a skeptic by nature but two others and myself had a close encounter, maybe 150 yards, and either I'm insane or it really happened. It's been 35 years and no other signs of insanity have developed. Intellectually I want to reject it, but I saw what I saw. I don't expect anyone to believe my story; I wouldn't.

 

Right, it just seems to be based upon how likely intelligent life as advanced as ours has evolved out there, that they aren't over-active warriors, that they have the capability and desire to go out and about, and that they don't put a big emphases on their own birth control. :)

 

I don't know of such things really happening, but many of such claims are asserted to have alternative explanations. If such a thing had happened to me I might be singing a different tune.  There have been many unexplainable clams for sure.

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2 hours ago, florduh said:

It seems to me it would be inevitable to have life elsewhere in the universe whether we ever encounter it or not. It's a big universe. Why anyone would seek out our planet escapes me, but someone could stumble upon it as we occasionally stumble upon an anthill.

 

What would you deem to be evidence of extraterrestrial visitation? There are plenty of photos and videos that pass the smell test. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of eyewitness reports from very qualified observers in aviation and the military. We have records of radar anomalies. Governments take it seriously as they are the first to any supposed crash site and immediately take measures to keep the public away. Lastly, I'm a skeptic by nature but two others and myself had a close encounter, maybe 150 yards, and either I'm insane or it really happened. It's been 35 years and no other signs of insanity have developed. Intellectually I want to reject it, but I saw what I saw. I don't expect anyone to believe my story; I wouldn't.

 

I believe it simply because I've seen something similar as I've said before. We apparently saw something despite being skeptics of ghosts, spirits, and the supernatural. Who otherwise wouldn't probably believe such a thing had we not have witnessed it personally. 

 

But because I did see an unidentified object hover and then shoot off, I always have to wonder about it. Was it something else? Secret military testing? Or was it the real deal? I'll likely never know.

 

If it was the real thing, it's incredible to reflect on. To be standing there observing something that came from who knows where, or how. With living creatures or droids of some type navigating. It's so much more up close and personal when you're literally looking at something that unexplained in real time. 

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2 hours ago, pantheory said:

Interdimensional travel, if at all possible, would decrease the odds that we would have seen extraterrestrial intelligent life already. The problem seems to be that we have no such evidence for such life as yet. Since the possibility of inter-dimensional travel seems to be untestable, some  would say that it  falls outside the domain of science and is simply untestable speculation.

 

That's the point I was making. How do we know that technology beyond our ability to conceive doesn't exist? Whatever is beyond our current scientific understanding is not only untestable, but inconceivable at the moment. An example of beyond our knowing would be something like interdimensional travel or something we haven't even thought of yet. 

 

We need to first confirm whether not these things that people have been witnessing for most of history are the real thing, or least some of them. 

 

If they are the real thing, then we have to question by what methods did they arrive here? If they're confirmed, then they had to get here somehow. 

 

Which then leads to exploring the technology of how. It's a cascade of questions. But it has to start with a positive confirmation, I get that. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, pantheory said:

Perhaps such intelligent life does not want to be perceived for their own reasons. Perhaps, as the Drake equation suggests, intelligent life destroys itself before it can spread within the galaxy. Perhaps it is destroyed by predators, decease, parasites, wars, and natural events of all sorts. Or perhaps intelligent life is more rare than we currently believe, as I mentioned above, and I expect a number of unmentioned but possible destruction events.

 

Well, the thing I saw in real time wasn't hiding. There it was and there we all were looking right at it. For quite some time. Before it took off and shot away. It didn't spook just because we were there in a field looking up. It took it's sweet time and then left. 

 

And if it was real, then none of the rest makes any sense.

 

Life didn't destroy itself prematurely to space travel. Life wasn't destroyed by predators, disease, parasites or wars. Not only was it not destroyed, but it would have lasted long enough to come here and face off with a bunch of boys observing in a field....

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I believe it simply because I've seen something similar as I've said before. We apparently saw something despite being skeptics of ghosts, spirits, and the supernatural. Who otherwise wouldn't probably believe such a thing had we not have witnessed it personally. 

 

But because I did see an unidentified object hover and then shoot off, I always have to wonder about it. Was it something else? Secret military testing? Or was it the real deal? I'll likely never know.

 

If it was the real thing, it's incredible to reflect on. To be standing there observing something that came from who knows where, or how. With living creatures or droids of some type navigating. It's so much more up close and personal when you're literally looking at something that unexplained in real time. 

 

Yes, flordah had a similar observation experience. If I had a similar experience, what would I do? 1) Discuss it with others but be careful who I'm discussing it with :)  2) If an extra-terrestrial alien talked to me (if we could communicate) and told it like it really was, what would I do? First, I would ask him a bunch of questions, as long as he would permit. But if I didn't like his answers maybe I would check in with a reliable psychiatrist? In that case for me, seeing and hearing would not necessarily be believing :)

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12 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Yes, flordah had a similar observation experience. If I had a similar experience, what would I do? 1) Discuss it with others but be careful who I'm discussing it with.  2) If an alien talked to me and told it like it really was, what would I do? Maybe check in with a reliable psychiatrist? In this case for me, seeing would not necessarily be believing :)

 

It was years before any of us who saw it spoke about it again. I clearly remember tucking it away because I didn't want to deal with it at the time. Later I spoke about it with one of the others. And at my 20th class reunion some of who were there spoke about it among ourselves. I had to come to terms with the possibility that it could have been alien life on the flying object. That's freaky. Like seeing a ghost and not being able to explain it. It's on that level. 

 

This pilot has been doing interviews with media about his experience: 

 

 

So apparently this common enough. They were watching these things previous to sending pilots to check it out. Whatever it is, it's certainly not uncommon. This goes on and people do see it. In this case they recorded the thing they were following. 

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24 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

It was years before any of us who saw it spoke about it again. I clearly remember tucking it away because I didn't want to deal with it at the time. Later I spoke about it with one of the others. And at my 20th class reunion some of who were there spoke about it among ourselves. I had to come to terms with the possibility that it could have been alien life on the flying object. That's freaky. Like seeing a ghost and not being able to explain it. It's on that level. 

 

Yeah, even if I saw something like that and it was real, my mind would fabricate other possible explanations for it. But I would still have a memory of it as a very strange experience, as you do.

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

It was years before any of us who saw it spoke about it again. I clearly remember tucking it away because I didn't want to deal with it at the time. Later I spoke about it with one of the others. And at my 20th class reunion some of who were there spoke about it among ourselves. I had to come to terms with the possibility that it could have been alien life on the flying object. That's freaky. Like seeing a ghost and not being able to explain it. It's on that level. 

 

This pilot has been doing interviews with media about his experience: 

 

 

So apparently this common enough. They were watching these things previous to sending pilots to check it out. Whatever it is, it's certainly not uncommon. This goes on and people do see it. In this case they recorded the thing they were following. 

Really cool video. This seems to be one of the best and reliable testimonials concerning possible UFO sightings. I heard of this sighting years ago.

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That's what it's like to see something like that in real time. Only more vivid because you're looking at it directly and not via video. There it is, but WTF could it be? How can it dart off like that? 

 

Not long ago I was looking up at the sky while floating in the lake on our boat, and I made out a metal object moving between two cloud formations. But it was steady speed. I spot satellites all the time at night but this is the first time I've seen the sun light hit a satellite in broad day light and make it visible like that. I'm pretty confident that it was a day time satellite visible just briefly. No darting off. Hovering. Or anything more unusual or suspicious. 

 

But at first I was sitting there like WTF? Is this another UFO sighting? I said something to my wife. Then explained it pretty quickly. 

 

So I guess I'm always on watch in case something like that happens again. So far, nada. 

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14 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

That's what it's like to see something like that in real time. Only more vivid because you're looking at it directly and not via video. There it is, but WTF could it be? How can it dart off like that? 

 

Not long ago I was looking up at the sky while floating in the lake on our boat, and I made out a metal object moving between two cloud formations. But it was steady speed. I spot satellites all the time at night but this is the first time I've seen the sun light hit a satellite in broad day light and make it visible like that. I'm pretty confident that it was a day time satellite visible just briefly. No darting off. Hovering. Or anything more unusual or suspicious. 

 

But at first I was sitting there like WTF? Is this another UFO sighting? I said something to my wife. Then explained it pretty quickly. 

 

So I guess I'm always on watch in case something like that happens again. So far, nada. 

 

I have to tell you a funny story. My grandmother's second husband, my step grandfather, had a son that talked about seeing flying saucers all the time. He said he traveled to where he knew they would be. He also said he regularly communicated with his dead wife. At that time he was president of the US flying Saucer organization. He was somehow running for president of the U.S. in 1960. He was running against Nixon and Kennedy on the Flying Saucer ticket :) They didn't get enough signatures to be on the California ballot for president so he was a write-in candidate. His name was Gabriel Green and his presidential slogan and button said  "Abe in 1860, Gabe in 1960."  :)

 

I think he was a good example concerning those who sincerely believe they see flying saucers all the time. 

 

 

 

 

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This is a subject that has interested me for decades.   I keep hoping there will be a breakthrough soon, as I probably have 10 years or so left on this world.  If these sightings are alien, they seem to not want to give us any information about themselves.  Are they just curious?  Are they benefiting in some way by visiting?  If they are that far advanced from us, they probably don't want anything we have to offer.  Are they possibly paternalistic and concerned about us?  Perhaps they have evolved morally to the point they no longer have huge egos to fill by conquering others and getting rich.  It is  very interesting mystery.  

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1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

I have to tell you a funny story. My grandmother's second husband, my step grandfather, had a son that talked about seeing flying saucers all the time. He said he traveled to where he knew they would be. He also said he regularly communicated with his dead wife. At that time he was president of the US flying Saucer organization. He was somehow running for president of the U.S. in 1960, He was running against Nixon and Kennedy on the Flying Saucer ticket :) They didn't get enough signatures to be on the California ballot for president so he was a write-in candidate. His name was Gabriel Green and his presidential slogan and button said  "Abe in 1860, Gabe in 1960."  :)

 

I think he was a good example concerning those who sincerely believe they see flying saucers all the time. 

 

 

 

 

We had an eccentric like that in Kansas in about 1970.   

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13 hours ago, Weezer said:

This is a subject that has interested me for decades.   I keep hoping there will be a breakthrough soon, as I probably have 10 years or so left on this world.  If these sightings are alien, they seem to not want to give us any information about themselves.  Are they just curious?  Are they benefiting in some way by visiting?  If they are that far advanced from us, they probably don't want anything we have to offer.  Are they possibly paternalistic and concerned about us?  Perhaps they have evolved morally to the point they no longer have huge egos to fill by conquering others and getting rich.  It is  very interesting mystery.  

 

To be honest, it looks to be nothing more than observational, scientific, and exploration oriented. Even to the extent of abduction. If we've been visited by life forms or droids, then what eye witness accounts and videos show is something making observations and then leaving. I think you're right, it doesn't seem like anything that advanced would really want or need anything we have to offer. And I doubt that an extremely advance culture would be very egoic, probably the opposite. 

 

I've theorized that if there is life spread around on different planets and the more advanced can travel around observing, they may not make definitive contact in terms of setting up a social structure between the two civilizations until a certain point of planetary development is reached. A more primitive living planet is probably better left alone and simply observed until it develops to the point where it's ready to become of space traveling civilization as well. My guess is that since we're early on in the space travel and exploration development side of things, we've not crossed over from primitive to advanced as a species. We're still very reckless and represent a danger to ourselves and others at this point in our planetary development. We are still egoic. Though I see that lessening. 

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1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

I think you're right, it doesn't seem like anything that advance would really want or need anything we have to offer.

To a race of beings that old/advanced, our planet would be akin to an ant colony for us; a curiosity at most. However, when you've been close enough to see the details of a craft that silently does impossible maneuvers and speeds, it's hard to deny that somebody's looking in on us. 

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  • TABA changed the title to The Fermi Paradox

The following example shows my sexist, men vs. women, inclinations and interpretations of alien abductions and maybe other things. In the 70's one would hear lots of stories about alien abductions. A number of these stories would have a similar theme. They heard some type of humming sound above when they were out-and-about in the countryside. Then there was an almost blinding light from above; then the person lost consciousness. Thereafter they remember waking up in a fog of semi-consciousness and being probed for a considerable amount of time. When they finally woke up it was days later in the field where they started. Some had a vague memory of the aliens and their appearance.

 

When it was a man telling the story I would think that he had a vivid imagination. But when it was a woman telling the story I would think that there probably was a man and drugs involved with her experience, and maybe a masque :)

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Alien 1: Ok, Bill, commencing upload of warp drive technology to the humans' internet.

Alien 2: What??!!

Alien 1: Just kidding. LoL. 

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16 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Alien 1: Ok, Bill, commencing upload of warp drive technology to the humans' internet.

Alien 2: What??!!

Alien 1: Just kidding. LoL. 

 

Yup, that would be a way for them to prove they're out there without them having to make direct contact, if they wanted our technology to advance so that we could join the club.

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1 hour ago, pantheory said:
1 hour ago, midniterider said:

Alien 1: Ok, Bill, commencing upload of warp drive technology to the humans' internet.

Alien 2: What??!!

Alien 1: Just kidding. LoL. 

 

Yup, that would be a way for them to prove they're out there without them having to make direct contact, if they wanted our technology to advance so that we could join the club.

 

Ok, I'll take this on. 

 

If the idea is that a civilization is primitive and hostile until it matures to a certain level, then advancing (premature to that natural development of maturity) high technology wouldn't instantly mature the civilization.

 

An example would be taking an iphone and leaving it in the bronze age to show the barbaric humans something. In and of itself the iphone could do nothing to mature the minds of the bronze age humans. 

 

This is a similar situation. What good would it do to upload their technology to our internet in terms of our maturity as a species? And would the advanced life forms already be well aware of that as they observe? 

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I've been thinking about the Fermi Paradox and have arrived at a number of tentative conclusions that appear to satisfy the two things that we observe.

 

 

1.   We observe that we are alone in the universe.  ( I'm sceptical of any evidence suggesting otherwise.)

 

2.  We observe that Earth-like conditions should prevail on many planets in our galaxy, which is one of 2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe.

 

 

I therefore conclude the following.

 

 

A.  We are not alone in the universe.

 

B.  Most likely, we are alone in our galaxy, the Milky Way.

 

C.  It is possible that we are alone in our Local Group of galaxies, a small association of 80+ galaxies, most of which are poor candidates intelligent life.

 

D.  There are probably billions of other intelligent species spread across the 2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe.

 

E.  But the inter-galactic distances and time-scales separating each species from any others are too great for any communication.

 

F.  Therefore, we will probably never have any direct or indirect contact with any of them.

 

 

And this satisfies points 1 and 2, above.

 

 

The universe is life-friendly, but we will never know for sure if we are alone or not.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

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