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3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Ok, I'll take this on. 

 

If the idea is that a civilization is primitive and hostile until it matures to a certain level, then advancing (premature to that natural development of maturity) high technology wouldn't instantly mature the civilization.

 

An example would be taking an iphone and leaving it in the bronze age to show the barbaric humans something. In and of itself the iphone could do nothing to mature the minds of the bronze age humans. 

 

This is a similar situation. What good would it do to upload their technology to our internet in terms of our maturity as a species? And would the advanced life forms already be well aware of that as they observe? 

 

Without training, the technology is useless. What if a human being was raised from birth by the aliens to understand the alien tech? Would it be possible to learn it? Or would the human brain need more highly evolved brain parts to conceive what the tech was all about?

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The Fermi "paradox" is not an actual paradox. A paradox exists where we have two or more logically correct statements which are in contradiction. This is just not the case here. There are many reasonable explanations for the absence of confirmed observations of extra-terrestrial life. So there simply is no paradox.

 

Put another way: yes, it is true that it seems very likely that there should be extraterrestrial life. But it does not necessarily seem likely that we should all, therefore, have observed evidence of it. This just doesn't follow.

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3 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Without training, the technology is useless. What if a human being was raised from birth by the aliens to understand the alien tech? Would it be possible to learn it? Or would the human brain need more highly evolved brain parts to conceive what the tech was all about?

 

Probably useless. Unless we are capable of understanding. Pushing a button, of course we could that. But understanding the technology, maybe not. Like in "Arrival." Where they are beyond seeing in terms of past, present, and future. Time is not linear. And a human can hardly wrap their mind around the thinking and technology associated with it.

 

Did you see that one? 

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I've also been very fascinated in this topic for a while.

 

There are a few researchers in this space that I like to drop in on from time to time and brush up on their latest findings. What you learn very quickly is "ufology" as they call is, is not an isolated subject. Just like everything else, it ties in with history, archaeology, physics and biology and chemistry, politics, government, and even religion. It's a lot more than just "does this guy's abduction story seem legit?"

 

At this point, it's hard for me to deny that the US government is interested in UFOs and spends tons of resources in researching them. The main reason I believe it is because the US government doesn't even really deny it, especially lately.

 

From what I've read on the subject, I tend to believe that ETs exist. I think that not only are they technologically advanced, but they are also spiritually advanced. I think they do visit and hang around. There are just too many sitings; there are even a handful on this thread.

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14 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

I've also been very fascinated in this topic for a while.

 

There are a few researchers in this space that I like to drop in on from time to time and brush up on their latest findings. What you learn very quickly is "ufology" as they call is, is not an isolated subject. Just like everything else, it ties in with history, archaeology, physics and biology and chemistry, politics, government, and even religion. It's a lot more than just "does this guy's abduction story seem legit?"

 

At this point, it's hard for me to deny that the US government is interested in UFOs and spends tons of resources in researching them. The main reason I believe it is because the US government doesn't even really deny it, especially lately.

 

From what I've read on the subject, I tend to believe that ETs exist. I think that not only are they technologically advanced, but they are also spiritually advanced. I think they do visit and hang around. There are just too many sitings; there are even a handful on this thread.

 

If extra-terrestrials have come here from even the closest stellar system they would be considerably more technically advanced than us. But how much more? Just ten thousand years ahead of us would certainly be far more advanced. But I don't think too many advanced alien societies would look at us like ants. Because a civilization and its science is far more advanced than ours does not mean their intelligence is necessary greater, maybe just their technology, science, theories, and knowledge. Without genetic engineering, I don't think human intelligence will be much greater ten thousand years from now. There are even arguments that human intelligence is going down hill over time. The most well-know of these arguments is that most of intelligence is inherited and can't be learned. If so, then if the most intelligent people appear to be seriously practicing birth control, while those less intelligent and also in poverty out-bread those of more intelligence, then the average human intelligence could be on a decline.

 

So for any possible extra-terrestrial aliens that have extraordinary technologies, doesn't necessarily mean their intelligence is much greater than ours. That being said, such aliens may know ways to improve their intelligence, if not for themselves, for their offspring, as we are learning to do via genetic engineering. Once the cat is out of the bag, in time such technologies will be used. And for such aliens maybe they have already greatly improved their original intelligence levels. 

 

"I think that not only are they technologically advanced, but they are also spiritually advanced."

 

I don't know the meaning of the word spiritual without religion, as in your quote. But I would hope that aliens don't have religious beliefs period, but if so hopefully none as ridiculous as those on Earth.

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1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 hopefully none as ridiculous as those on Earth.

 

Amen brother!

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1 hour ago, pantheory said:

Because a civilization and its science is far more advanced that us does not mean their intelligence is necessary greater, maybe just their science, theories, and knowledge.

I would agree. I think we are capable of knowing everything that any potential advanced ETs know. As always, we just don't know what we don't know. If they're advanced, then they've had more time to learn more about everything.

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

I also don't know the meaning of the word spiritual without religion.

Religion steals the word spiritual. They say that the more religious you are, the more spiritual you are. Incorrect. Religious people are very concerned with following a bunch of external rules. Spirituality is hard to define, and I'm starting to think that's the entire point. It's a journey that usually seems to last for the rest of your life and seems to be a mix of becoming more authentic, casting off unnecessary authorities (including those imposed on yourself), becoming more aware and conscious, shedding the ego, healing past traumas, and all that stuff. Basically, with a spiritual practice you develop within, and with a religion you "develop" without (Christian God, pastors, rules/commandments, etc). To bring it back to the original conversation, the reason why I think ETs would be spiritually advanced would be the same reason they have greater knowledge--they've simply had more time to get there. They'd see all the mistakes we humans are making because they've made the same ones in their long history (awareness) such as killing each other in wars, destroying our planet, small groups of people controlling larger groups of people, etc. and they've moved on as a species that doesn't do any of that anymore.

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22 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

they may not make definitive contact in terms of setting up a social structure between the two civilizations until a certain point of planetary development is reached. A more primitive living planet is probably better left alone and simply observed until it develops to the point where it's ready to become of space traveling civilization as well. My guess is that since we're early on in the space travel and exploration development side of things, we've not crossed over from primitive to advanced as a species. We're still very reckless and represent a danger to ourselves and others at this point in our planetary development. We are still egoic. Though I see that lessening. 

Advanced aliens observing the earth is the theme of the Canopus in Argos series by Doris Lessing.

 

A recent related thread is 

 

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Robert_Tulip,

 

I expect we have almost countless books, literature, TV series, movies etc. concerning science-fiction aliens, their existence, accomplishments, visitations etc. It's certainly interesting speculation or reflection for those who may have seen such things. In the US there's area 51 in New Mexico (a classified area), which some believe contains downed alien spacecraft(s) etc.

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On 3/12/2021 at 3:57 PM, disillusioned said:

The Fermi "paradox" is not an actual paradox. A paradox exists where we have two or more logically correct statements which are in contradiction. This is just not the case here. There are many reasonable explanations for the absence of confirmed observations of extra-terrestrial life. So there simply is no paradox.

 

Put another way: yes, it is true that it seems very likely that there should be extraterrestrial life. But it does not necessarily seem likely that we should all, therefore, have observed evidence of it. This just doesn't follow.

 

Hi disillusioned,

 

Here's a link explaining the reason for the name Firmi's paradox, as well as explaining its source and commenting as you did, as to why it's not a paradox.

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-fermi-paradox-is-not-fermi-s-and-it-is-not-a-paradox/

 

Why do they call it a paradox?  Here paradox has the meaning of an enigma or conundrum. There is a equation that most practitioners in this field called the Drake equation. Putting all the variables into this equation is totally speculative, most all agree. But based upon what many consider to be a likely input of variables, the equation indicates that it is likely that aliens have already been here. The enigma is that most practitioners believe there is no clear and substantial evidence of their past presence exists other than subjective testimonies of asserted observers.

 

Drake Equation:

 

=number of civilizations with which humans could communicate

=mean rate of star formation

=fraction of stars that have planets

=mean number of planets that could support life per star with planets

=fraction of life-supporting planets that develop life

=fraction of planets with life where life develops intelligence

=fraction of intelligent civilizations that develop communication

=mean length of time that civilizations can communicate

 

Each of these is a factor in the equation. What the equation does not include, but probably should, are civilization destruction scenarios which could be a high-odds factor over hundreds of thousands of years.

 

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On 3/13/2021 at 7:34 PM, pantheory said:

 

Hi disillusioned,

 

Here's a link explaining the reason for the name Firmi's paradox, as well as explaining its source and commenting as you did, as to why it's not a paradox.

 

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-fermi-paradox-is-not-fermi-s-and-it-is-not-a-paradox/

 

Why do they call it a paradox?  Here paradox has the meaning of an enigma or conundrum. There is a equation that most practitioners in this field called the Drake equation. Putting all the variables into this equation is totally speculative, most all agree. But based upon what many consider to be a likely input of variables, the equation indicates that it is likely that aliens have already been here. The enigma is that most practitioners believe there is no clear and substantial evidence of their past presence exists other than subjective testimonies of asserted observers.

 

Drake Equation:

 

=number of civilizations with which humans could communicate

=mean rate of star formation

=fraction of stars that have planets

=mean number of planets that could support life per star with planets

=fraction of life-supporting planets that develop life

=fraction of planets with life where life develops intelligence

=fraction of intelligent civilizations that develop communication

=mean length of time that civilizations can communicate

 

Each of these is a factor in the equation. What the equation does not include, but probably should, are civilization destruction scenarios which could be a high-odds factor over hundreds of thousands of years.

 

 

Yes, I'm familiar with the Drake equation. As you say, the values of several of its parameters are highly speculative. However, I agree, in principle, that it seems more likely than not that extra-terrestrial intelligence exists. It may have visited here. Even given this, though, I still don't find it at all puzzling that we don't see evidence of it. So I don't think that re-labelling the Fermi Paradox as a conundrum rather than a true paradox does any useful work. It isn't a paradox, and it isn't a conundrum either. There are many possible explanations.

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28 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

Yes, I'm familiar with the Drake equation. As you say, the values of several of its parameters are highly speculative. However, I agree, in principle, that it seems more likely than not that extra-terrestrial intelligence exists. It may have visited here. Even given this, though, I still don't find it at all puzzling that we don't see evidence of it. So I don't think that re-labelling the Fermi Paradox as a conundrum rather than a true paradox does any useful work. It isn't a paradox, and it isn't a conundrum either. There are many possible explanations.

 

Yeah, I agree. A conundrum or paradox of anything is based upon the mainstream understanding of it. For many paradoxes there may be simple valid explanations of it that the mainstream has yet to discover, become aware of, or  better understand it. As to aliens, there are two obvious explanations of what we now call a paradox concerning aliens not seen IMO. 1) Is that aliens have already been here but the evidence has not been accepted as yet, it has been deliberately hidden, or lost in archeological time. 2) That life is much more difficult to form in the first place than our current understandings and beliefs, or that for life to evolve from a simple form into our level of intelligence also may be extremely rare.

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I found this piece regarding strange possibilities concerning extra-terrestrials.

 

https://www.livescience.com/63208-alien-life-excuses.html

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  • 2 weeks later...

A quote from your link: "A bombshell report in June."  That's only a couple of months from now. It will be interesting, but I expect little other than additional so-called sightings and maybe new interpretations will come from it. We'll see!

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3 hours ago, pantheory said:

A quote from your link: "A bombshell report in June."  That's only a couple of months from now. It will be interesting, but I expect little other than additional so-called sightings and maybe new interpretations will come from it. We'll see!

My guess is they're inching toward an unavoidable disclosure. We may be approaching a critical mass of people who have first hand knowledge and a major shift in tactics is needed. A "Project Blue Book" type coverup wouldn't gain any traction these days.

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Very interesting to see playing out. More officials coming forward. 

 

If we get to the point where it's completely transparent, then the paradoxes can be set aside for good. The fermi paradox falls apart. No paradox, aliens come here and have been coming here. The end. Done deal at that point. 

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