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1 hour ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

True, but that's the thing. We let them. It's almost like the whole world is a scaled up version of that famous psychology experiment where a fake scientist told the test subjects to keep pressing the button to electrocute another person with near-lethal voltage. Most did, just because someone who was perceived to be an authority told them.

 

I don't think we all do, not really. There is a huge effort to condition and program people from childhood on to respond in a way that benefits the goals of government and religion. Because a child's parents were indoctrinated in the same way, when they don't know how to deal with something they revert to the examples set by those that think they are "authorities". That example is punishment and reward. Good cop bad cop. Get hurt in battle and a kindly surgeon patches you up just to go into battle again. The surgeon works for the same army as the commanding officer that sent you into battle in the first place - and in all those examples nobody is thinking on their own. They are following orders and reverting to a training program that was learned from birth on.

 

I stopped thinking anybody is an authority some years ago. A man with a gun is a bully, not an authority. A king with an army is not an authority. He's a bully with lots of guns, and if it wasn't for the continuous indoctrination of children, he would not have an army of men willing to kill and be killed for him.

 

So the king has a way to program people to serve his needs. He uses the school system, the religious system, the banking system, and the media. He uses people that are already indoctrinated. He teaches people to mock, threaten, and punish. He has to continuously do this because what he is doing is not natural. This has been going on for thousands of years. Nothing has changed but the details.

 

Since the king took over, there has never been a new form of government or different king of religion. They all govern the same way. The real governing is what I just explained - the details of a government or religion keep people arguing over which is the best. In other words, they fail to see the forest for the trees and they argue over stupid stuff, and those arguments change nothing.

 

1 hour ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

So the ET race could be looking down with a bird's eye view saying, "A couple thousand of these pricks are causing all the problems, but the other 8 billion are just letting them, and many of them actually support their controllers."

 

It really isn't the couple thousand pricks...

...it is bad ideas and bad beliefs, and real justice, if such a thing exists, would go after those bad ideas and bad beliefs. It wouldn't go after the students who learned them well.

 

That, by the way, is what the king expects - punish people for doing what they were told to do and punish them for not doing what they were told to do. Not coincidentally, that is the same personality profile of the guy over two thirds of the world worships under different names.

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18 hours ago, florduh said:

Compared to what? 

 

Compared to bacteria :)

 

I don't think there are very many advanced star-Trek type civilizations out there, instead I expect most would be more like animals and our earliest ancestors, if there are any at all close enough for a visit.

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12 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Compared to bacteria :)

 

I don't think there are very many advanced star-Trek type civilizations out there, instead I expect most would be more like animals and our earliest ancestors, if there are any at all close enough for a visit.

My only point (compared to what?) was we would need to be familiar with people(?) on other planets to judge how advanced we are. We have no reference for ranking ourselves; as far as we know we are the most advanced and the least advanced.

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4 hours ago, florduh said:

My only point (compared to what?) was we would need to be familiar with people(?) on other planets to judge how advanced we are. We have no reference for ranking ourselves; as far as we know we are the most advanced and the least advanced.

 

You are right, it's just my opinion that we are relatively advanced. Of course in just a few thousand years from now we will be living on the moon, mars, and maybe space colonies, and I expect we will survive that long. Our Engineering technologies right now are quite advanced IMO, even though many of our science theories are totally wrong.

 

So the Earth is simply an Engineer's paradise, the most famous of which were people like Archimedes, Da Vinci, Edison, Tesla, Bell, Musk, Watt, etc.  Most of our theoretical scientists know very little of reality IMO, and rank-and-file scientists simply play follow-the-leader.

 

So we are backwards in modern physics IMO, maybe 200 years behind our Engineering technology.

 

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23 hours ago, Extant said:

I don't think we all do, not really. There is a huge effort to condition and program people from childhood on to respond in a way that benefits the goals of government and religion. Because a child's parents were indoctrinated in the same way, when they don't know how to deal with something they revert to the examples set by those that think they are "authorities". That example is punishment and reward. Good cop bad cop. Get hurt in battle and a kindly surgeon patches you up just to go into battle again. The surgeon works for the same army as the commanding officer that sent you into battle in the first place - and in all those examples nobody is thinking on their own. They are following orders and reverting to a training program that was learned from birth on.

 

I stopped thinking anybody is an authority some years ago. A man with a gun is a bully, not an authority. A king with an army is not an authority. He's a bully with lots of guns, and if it wasn't for the continuous indoctrination of children, he would not have an army of men willing to kill and be killed for him.

 

So the king has a way to program people to serve his needs. He uses the school system, the religious system, the banking system, and the media. He uses people that are already indoctrinated. He teaches people to mock, threaten, and punish. He has to continuously do this because what he is doing is not natural. This has been going on for thousands of years. Nothing has changed but the details.

 

Since the king took over, there has never been a new form of government or different king of religion. They all govern the same way. The real governing is what I just explained - the details of a government or religion keep people arguing over which is the best. In other words, they fail to see the forest for the trees and they argue over stupid stuff, and those arguments change nothing.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. We're discussing the same point. IMO, though, the responsibility still falls back on the individual. Although you didn't explicitly say so, your post kinda has a vibe of "it isn't our fault, that's just the way it is, so oh well." If that isn't what you meant, then my bad. Yes, we ARE indoctrinated as children to believe all sorts of shit about how the world works that just isn't true. It isn't our fault, but it's still our job to deprogram. Because as you've said, people who never deprogram just become drones for the government or religion or both. Or for their society, or for their culture, or for their job, etc. It's our job to deprogram because we won't perpetuate the cycle; we won't indoctrinate our children.

 

23 hours ago, Extant said:

It really isn't the couple thousand pricks...

...it is bad ideas and bad beliefs, and real justice, if such a thing exists, would go after those bad ideas and bad beliefs.

If you really trace it up, I'd bet it's far LESS than a couple 1000. I'm talking about the 0.01% who effectively run the planet.

 

Bad ideas and bad beliefs come from somewhere. It's from these guys. 

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On 4/23/2021 at 2:00 PM, pantheory said:

You are right, it's just my opinion that we are relatively advanced. Of course in just a few thousand years from now we will be living on the moon, mars, and maybe space colonies, and I expect we will survive that long. Our Engineering technologies right now are quite advanced IMO, even though many of our science theories are totally wrong.

 

Have you read Dr. Judy Wood's book about 9/11? I did and then went back and looked at the news footage. She's right. The twin towers disappear faster than free fall speed which means they didn't fall - they met no resistance and ground zero was still pretty much at ground level because the material to construct them disintegrated and floated up.

 

If you watch the videos in slow motion you can see steal beams and concrete disintegrate in midair. Who has that tech? The USG or somebody else?

 

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7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. We're discussing the same point. IMO, though, the responsibility still falls back on the individual. Although you didn't explicitly say so, your post kinda has a vibe of "it isn't our fault, that's just the way it is, so oh well." If that isn't what you meant, then my bad. Yes, we ARE indoctrinated as children to believe all sorts of shit about how the world works that just isn't true. It isn't our fault, but it's still our job to deprogram. Because as you've said, people who never deprogram just become drones for the government or religion or both. Or for their society, or for their culture, or for their job, etc. It's our job to deprogram because we won't perpetuate the cycle; we won't indoctrinate our children.

 

Just so we are on the same topic, what responsibility falls on the individual?

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On 4/24/2021 at 9:30 AM, TheDeconvertedMan said:

If you really trace it up, I'd bet it's far LESS than a couple 1000. I'm talking about the 0.01% who effectively run the planet.

 

Bad ideas and bad beliefs come from somewhere. It's from these guys. 

 

I just watched something interesting and remembered your comment here: 

 

 

It does seem to me more likely that advanced life forms would understand much more than we even do about the interconnected structure of both planets and the nature of space itself. And that ignorance of that reality brings with it at least the potential for ill intent on the part of the ignorant. 

 

When the ignorant are making the calls, this is what we get. And it seems rightfully limited to the isolation of a given home planet. Until the ignorance is worked out and the civilization no longer poses a threat to itself and all those who may come into contact with such a civilization. 

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2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

It does seem to me more likely that advanced life forms would understand much more than we even do about the interconnected structure of both planets and the nature of space itself. And that ignorance of that reality brings with it at least the potential for ill intent on the part of the ignorant. 

 

Advanced in what though? Physics, football, building a bigger bomb, packing a picnic basket? This makes me think of Hitler's Final Solution and Master Race program were Aryans were the advanced life form, yet Africans excel at sports, Asians at math and engineering, and I'm sure I could come up with other examples where Aryans were/are not the advanced life form. I suppose that is stereotyping but still, the point is, advanced life form is a point of view.

 

I've read much about the Anunnaki. Their story is on clay tablets and those stories match up with a lot of old city-states built out of large quarried stone. That makes the stories hard to ignore and if those accounts are true, the Anunnaki had tech far more advanced than anything in the public domain now - but if the Anunnaki were truly advanced life forms, they wouldn't have done all the horrible things they did to each other and to humans.

 

Note: See my post earlier about Dr. Judy Wood and 9/11

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1 hour ago, Extant said:

Advanced in what though? Physics, football, building a bigger bomb, packing a picnic basket? This makes me think of Hitler's Final Solution and Master Race program were Aryans were the advanced life form, yet Africans excel at sports, Asians at math and engineering, and I'm sure I could come up with other examples where Aryans were/are not the advanced life form. I suppose that is stereotyping but still, the point is, advanced life form is a point of view.

 

Advanced as in a stage 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 civilization to our less than stage 1. That's pretty straight forward. Advanced in technology enough to travel from one planet to another. Advanced race is a subjective opinion. And of course, we have different races involved in human technological achievement and advancement in the sciences.

 

Advanced space traveling civilization (composed of many races or some similar situation) crosses over into something more objective and easily defined. 

 

Can you harness the power of an entire planet? 

Can you harness the power of an entire solar system? 

Galaxy?

Universe? 

Multiverse? 

 

Even within the last 100 years we've advanced and the idea of genocide is greatly frowned on. It was frowned on when Hitler did it. Hence the hiding and secrecy. Basically, as we've advanced empathy has increased to the point where slavery became frowned on. Misogyny frowned on. Racism frowned on. Even the death penalty frowned on. You reverse time and the empathy levels of societies greatly diminish and things go in the direction of barbaric and primitive compared to advancing forward through time with evolution. 

 

People couldn't seem to relate to how they'd feel if they were being burned at the stake, placed in gladiatorial arena, hung, decapitated, stoned to death, and so on. But over time with evolution it's changed dramatically. There's an obvious trend going forward through stages of advancement and development. 

 

1 hour ago, Extant said:

've read much about the Anunnaki. Their story is on clay tablets and those stories match up with a lot of old city-states built out of large quarried stone. That makes the stories hard to ignore and if those accounts are true, the Anunnaki had tech far more advanced than anything in the public domain now - but if the Anunnaki were truly advanced life forms, they wouldn't have done all the horrible things they did to each other and to humans.

 

 

Who are the Anunnaki? https://stellarhousepublishing.com/anunnaki/

 

I don't think much of it is correctly being translated. Von Daniken has done a horrible job with his ancient aliens theories. For instance, if ufo's have been coming here all along, why haven't they come out and conquered the earth already if they're space traveling warlords and oppressors? The sightings haven't stopped. Odd sightings have been happening right on through. Now they're on video with the military. 

 

Either they haven't been coming here or they have been coming here but quietly observing for the most part. And if quietly observing, that has no parallel to Von Daniken's translations and ideas. He's sensational. Fear and panic sells. But doesn't have much in the way of strong evidence on it's side in this case. In the linked article above she goes over the mythological and allegorical understanding of the Anunnaki not as literal beings, but as personifications of celestial observations. 

 

Either skeptics are correct and we haven't been visited or we have been visited and these sightings all throughout history have been the real thing, except, with out any recognizable consequence following the visitations. No wars with aliens. No big invasion. Nada. 

 

That's why I wanted to take my sci fi in a different, possibly more believable direction. Harder to easily dismiss. With no affiliation to guys like Von Daniken. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Däniken

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Tech went from this:

 

spacer.png

 

This is a 1000 metric ton block of stone quarried and partially moved ( that is 2,200,000 pounds ). Clay tablets state the Anunnaki built the Baalbek platform. Much much later, thousands of years later, the temple you see in the background (upper left corner) was built on top of that platform.

 

To this:

 

torture-device.jpg

 

This is a torture device used during the Inquisition. It is not that old.

 

To this:

 

wtc-dust.jpg

 

This is one of the World Trade Center towers turning to dust in mid air. It could not have fallen because it disappeared faster that free fall speed. If it had collapsed it would have met with resistance. For example, WTC-1 took a little over 8 seconds to go bye-bye. WTC-2 took less than 10 seconds to go bye-bye. The WTC buildings didn't collapse.

 

nuclear-melted-granite-bedrock.jpg

 

This is the granite bedrock that supported the WTC buildings. Notice anything unusual about its surface? Kind of melted maybe? What can melt and disintegrate granite?

 

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1 minute ago, Joshpantera said:

Whatever is mentioned on the clay tablets has to be put in mythological perspective, because it's mythology. It's no better reading that literally than reading Genesis literally. 

 

Actually, there are clay tablets that specifically state the Anunnaki were flesh and blood and that they purposely named planets after themselves and mapped out the constellations. Is any of that true or are they myths? Maybe by looking at a recent and verifiable example of how 'they' do things will help answer that.

 

Before that example, let me say I'm not 100% convinced about anything at this point and it is entirely possible the Anunnaki were and are from here. You gotta admit, you cannot sweep Baalbek away by saying the Anunnaki are mythical. It took tech to quarry, move, and place those megalithic stones and somebody built Baalbek. Somebody built the pyramids. Those structures are not myths. Was it people called the Anunnaki, or somebody else? It certainly wasn't a myth that built them and it certainly is suspect nobody knows when and how they were built.

 

Here is one example of hiding associations for the benefit of the self-appointed rulers. George Washington and crew were under the direct control of the throne of England through Freemasonry. They did the whole "Independence" thing to hide that fact and they did so because people were tired of a group of make-believe royals that didn't give two-shits about them. Much like it is now. They needed people willing to colonize the new world and so those people were promised freedoms they never had under the monarchy. Once the wet-work was done Britain stepped in again through the Freemasons. It's a bit more complicated because of the Jesuits and the Vatican, but that's the short of it.

 

The big clue is where the first masonic temple was built and the gods and goddess they obeyed. That was in Egypt. Those gods and goddesses were the Anaunnak, AKA Lucifer and the fallen-angels, the saints, etc.

 

Anyway, it looks as though the Anunnaki did the same thing George Washington pulled - they had too because they were hated and by doing so people wouldn't know they were still influencing mankind. The USG protects them now (they were chased out of the middle east). Step foot on that land and they will shoot you.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Extant said:

Actually, there are clay tablets that specifically state the Anunnaki were flesh and blood and that they purposely named planets after themselves and mapped out the constellations. Is any of that true or are they myths? Maybe by looking at a recent and verifiable example of how 'they' do things will help answer that.

 

The idea that the mythic gods were people who were then used to name planets is evemerism. And this article outlines the problems associated with that interpretation: https://stellarhousepublishing.com/anunnaki/

 

When we study what the ancients said about them, we discover that the Anunnaki, et al., are part of the celestial mythos, not “aliens.” Here the Anunnaki are the “seven nether spheres” or mirror images of the seven “planets.” These seven judges are a common mythical motif, also found in Slavic/Serbian mythology, for example, where they are clearly identified as the planets:

“Among the Serbs the Sun was a young and handsome king. He lived in a kingdom of light and sat on a throne of gold and purple. At his side stood two beautiful virgins, Aurora of the Morning and Aurora of the Evening, seven judges (the planets) and seven ‘messengers’ who flew across the universe in the guise of ‘stars with tails’ (comets). Also present was the Sun’s ‘bald uncle, old Myesyats’ (or the moon).” New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology, 284

As we can see, the reality of this issue is much more colorful and luminous than a group of bizarre aliens terrorizing cavemen. This information is what the ancients themselves wrote. They did not write, “And so the Anunnaki were sky people from another planet who landed here and mated with humans, etc.” In fact, “Anunnaki” is a generic term for gods, especially secondary gods, and means “gods of heaven and earth,” not “those who from heaven to earth came.” “An” or “Anu” means “sky” and represents the name of the “god of heaven,” while “Ki” means “earth” and is the name of the earth goddess.

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On 4/26/2021 at 10:03 PM, Extant said:

Before that example, let me say I'm not 100% convinced about anything at this point and it is entirely possible the Anunnaki were and are from here. You gotta admit, you cannot sweep Baalbek away by saying the Anunnaki are mythical. It took tech to quarry, move, and place those megalithic stones and somebody built Baalbek. Somebody built the pyramids. Those structures are not myths. Was it people called the Anunnaki, or somebody else? It certainly wasn't a myth that built them and it certainly is suspect nobody knows when and how they were built.

 

People come along and join the forums, and we're here to encourage and help ex christians. Since I'm familiar with the content I'm trying to be helpful when pointing out that the content you've gotten involved with has a lot of conflation going on. And it takes more research to sort out what's being conflated. And it doesn't mean that aliens didn't have any role in the pyramids or the Baalbek platform. It just means that Sitchin and Von Daniken patched together spurious claims to try and arrive at their conclusions. And then everyone else who got involved followed behind their initial spurious claims, including spurious claims about interpreting the Sumerian tablets. 

 

This is what I mean by being open to the possibility that we've been visited all along, but I don't think the ancient aliens theorist's have a handle on it. And are just concerned with trying to make a sensational set of claims more than anything else. 12th planet? Aliens coming down to reign terror on cavemen from the 12th planet when it's close? 

 

The towers look like a demolition job. With set explosives all the way down. It didn't take aliens to set charges on each floor. The terrorist's had already had inside guys wire the building or whatever, to ensure they'd collapse. The molten aftermath melting bedrock probably. Just as the simplest explanation tends to be the right one, the most sensational is probably wrong. 

 

Literal beings from the past who terrorized cavemen in antiquity are woven together in a massive conflation that spans anything negative throughout time? Torturing in the inquisition. And taking down the twin towers under false pretense of middle eastern terrorist's, with a curve ball conspiracy about the US government just for good measure? 

 

Again, one good way to sort this out would be real time, open to the world, alien contact Q&A. 

 

Wouldn't it be nice to figure who, if anyone, has been visiting here? How much of it does or does not match mythological stories. Whether or not there's any merit to the conspiracy theories that have been woven through obvious conflation. And generally gain the ability to finally get an objective based answer to all of the questions. 

 

 

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I am totally confused on what we're discussing right now.  The discussion of the Fermi Paradox was interesting, but somehow we've veered into 9/11, freemasons, and Lucifer.

 

If a civilization is advanced enough to solve the faster than light issue and both travel and communicate through interstellar space, I am inclined to agree these beings are more interested in observing us than interacting with us.

 

As as far as ancient civilizations, do not discount what huge amounts of manpower, lack of safety/casualty concerns, long timescales, and loads of free time can accomplish - it's not like they had many distractions or a 35/40 hour workweek.  Ancient people were not stupid, merely ignorant, just as we will likely be viewed in the distant future.

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You guys are trying to help people de-convert from Christianity and that is great. That process is more than saying I don't believe in Christ anymore. It means giving up the use of the same tactics.

 

What I posted absolutely has to do with religion and science. It there a better place to post this stuff, a different forum on the internet where the information is looked at and not how or what the poster thinks? I was forced to think like a Christian. Now I feel I will have to accept what I'm told here. Am I wrong?

 

 

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Topic under discussion is the Fermi Paradox, not a free ranging inquiry into ancient aliens, secret organizations, and global cabals.  If the claim is there is no Fermi Paradox because aliens have visited, made their presence known, and the evidence is ancient aliens, Baalbeck, etc... then that's topical.  That is a claim that must be supported and withstand scrutiny.

 

If you want to engage in a discussion of specific ancient aliens and their current influence/control of the planet - a new thread (which you can start) would be more appropriate.

 

We were all snookered by the claims of Christianity at one point in our lives and we take claims of all stripes seriously:

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Krowb said:

We were all snookered by the claims of Christianity at one point in our lives and we take claims of all stripes seriously:

 

Me too. I made a mistake by posted here.

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11 hours ago, Extant said:

You guys are trying to help people de-convert from Christianity and that is great. That process is more than saying I don't believe in Christ anymore. It means giving up the use of the same tactics.

 

Yes. Tactics which include not applying rigorous scrutiny to claims. Or building up grand structures from a foundation of presupposition. The idea is to see what is inherently wrong with christian reasoning and the methodology for building up claims. And becoming more incredulous after having been credulous as a christian. 

 

11 hours ago, Extant said:

What I posted absolutely has to do with religion and science. It there a better place to post this stuff, a different forum on the internet where the information is looked at and not how or what the poster thinks? I was forced to think like a Christian. Now I feel I will have to accept what I'm told here. Am I wrong?

 

I think he meant that this thread is about the fermi paradox. But it's about alien life so all of that is in context. 911 and conspiracy stuff goes off in the direction of another topic. 

 

I don't know what you mean about accepting what you're told. You're in a freethinking forum where a lot of skepticism and debate will follow any one making pretty much any claim. Due to what I explained above. After christianity, people aren't nearly as credulous as when they were in christianity. So all claims of just about anything will be analyzed when any one makes them. 

 

11 hours ago, Krowb said:

We were all snookered by the claims of Christianity at one point in our lives and we take claims of all stripes seriously:

 

Well put. 

 

11 hours ago, Extant said:

Me too. I made a mistake by posted here.

 

No problem. I like having free range discussions about whatever any one wants to talk about. A different thread about the conspiracy stuff is fine. People will want to analyze the claims being made. If it's serious, a debate can be made. As in if you feel like you have strong enough evidence to turn it into a debate, I'm sure people would love to read through the exchange. A civil debate of course. 

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i have been away for a couple of weeks.  interesting discussion while gone.

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It seems peculiar to me that they describe the alleged UFO's shape as being pyramid shaped, when they clearly are triangular shaped. They also said of possibly Chinese or of Russian origin, when the most likely source is a US secret drone of some kind IMO.

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I tend to agree with @pantheory's latest post on this one.  A civilization advanced enough to solve the time and energy requirements for intersteller travel combined with avoiding our ever increasing detection capabilities aren't likely to be accidentally spotted out on a joyride.  While it's certainly possible, I find it less likely than the alternatives.

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On 4/30/2021 at 4:18 PM, pantheory said:

It seems peculiar to me that they describe the alleged UFO's shape as being pyramid shaped, when they clearly are triangular shaped. They also said of possibly Chinese or of Russian origin, when the most likely source is a US secret drone of some kind IMO.

 

You're referring to around 4:30 of the video? 

 

That's where the host is saying that some explanations are the Chinese or Russian governments, but what doesn't think follows is how those governments have technology so advanced as to do things we don't understand from physics perspectives and mess with our nuclear arsenal. Suggesting that it would be a massive problem for national security. 

 

Through 6:51, The film maker being interviewed explains that the 'frequency of sightings' between the US government and civilians has been increasing. Explaining why so much attention is being given now.

 

These crafts appear to have gravity driven propulsion systems that allow them to freely transition between space, air, and sea. And his take on it is that all of the worlds governments are trying to get this technology figured so they can use it and have a dominant status in the world with their dominant technology. 

 

So walk me through your analysis.

 

You think the one video of the one shape is a secret US drone? What about all of the other civilian and government sightings which vary in shape? All US drones as well? And with respect to arming and disarming our nuclear arsenal? That's what he was referring to in the video. It was our drones arming and disarming our own nuclear arsenal for some reason? If so, then what reason do you propose? 

 

It's a broad situation that covers a lot of ground worldwide. If we had that technology, why fool around? We make for certain that everyone knows our nuclear capability. Because the general attitude is to keep a dominant status on the world stage. Why hide this? If we have the technology why wouldn't we make it clear like our nuclear capability for the same reason? 

 

But even more to the point, why would we send secret drones of ours to mess with our own nuclear arsenal? 

 

The problem here is that I see too many inconsistencies with both ends of the arguments. The conservative side of the argument suggests no aliens at all. The liberal side goes off into not only aliens, but elaborate conspiracies and fear mongering about aliens terrorizing the cavemen of antiquity until today. Neither of these two arguments seem to gel in terms of explaining the entirety of the situation. 

 

The other issue that I'm seeing is that the argument that it's the US fooling around with itself introduces conspiracies of it's own. Which doesn't get us any further than the conspiracies of the ancient alien theorists. 

 

Lay it on me, Pan! 

 

I want to see how you try and work this out further. 

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