Christianity for the Age of Aquarius

[Robert_Tulip]

I am writing a book with the provisional title Christianity for the Age of Aquarius.  An editorial consultant is helping me to prepare the book, which will draw on ideas that I have discussed here, for example in the thread on Precession as the Framework of Christian Origins.  I’d love to get your honest feedback on my book idea. The goal is to help Christian theologians understand the astronomy of the Gospel story so that they can share its message in a systematic and scientific way. What’s your gut response?

[Robert_Tulip]

Here is my draft Table of Contents

 

a.       Introduction – The possible role of astronomy and astrology in Christian origins and the implications for Christianity today

 

b.       The astrophysics and astrology of zodiac ages

 

c.       Cultural history of the Age of Aquarius

 

d.       Biblical Exegesis – textual analysis of possible astronomical allegory

 

e.       Precessional Influences on early Christianity from India, Egypt, Babylon, Israel and Greece

 

f.        Implications for theology – Christ as construction of the transcendental imagination

 

g.       Case study – The Last Supper by Leonardo Da Vinci

 

h.       Conclusion – A Paradigm Shift for Christian Faith

[TheDeconvertedMan]

I thought the general consensus of those who mash up astrotheology and Christianity identify Christianity as the religion of the age of Pisces (Jesus feeds the 5,000 with 2 fish, the fish Jesus symbol, the disciples that were fisherman, "fishers of men" etc) and is therefore "scheduled" (for the lack of a better term) to fall away in this new age of Aquarius?

[Robert_Tulip]

2 minutes ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

I thought the general consensus of those who mash up astrotheology and Christianity identify Christianity as the religion of the age of Pisces (Jesus feeds the 5,000 with 2 fish, the fish Jesus symbol, the disciples that were fisherman, "fishers of men" etc) and is therefore "scheduled" (for the lack of a better term) to fall away in this new age of Aquarius?

The Biblical imagination takes a much longer time frame.  The Gospel story of Jesus as avatar of the age of Pisces also includes the story about the second coming in which Jesus is imagined as avatar of the Age of Aquarius.  So rather than fall away, the idea is that Christianity will only come to be properly understood once the symbolism in the Gospel texts is reconciled with scientific knowledge in the Age of Aquarius.  The dominant supernatural church beliefs of the Age of Pisces will then be discarded on the model of the separation of wheat and tares at the end of the age from Matt 13:24ff 

 

Here are two key texts supporting this hypothesis.

 

Matt 24:14 "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." 

• This idea of the 'end of the age' as marking the inauguration of a messianic presence in the world matches to the idea that the Age of Pisces is a time of preparation while the Age of Aquarius, which will only begin after everyone on the planet has heard of Jesus Christ, is imagined as a time when the moral message of the Gospels can be more fully implemented, without the corrupted dross that the church has surrounded it with.

Mark 14:13-15: "He sent two of His disciples and told them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jug of water will meet you. Follow him, 14and whichever house he enters, say to the owner, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is My guest room where I may eat the Passover with My disciples?’ 15And he will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.” 

• This is one of numerous Biblical texts that make sense as allegory for a concealed astronomical framework. The man with the water jug symbolises the zodiac sign of Aquarius, and therefore also serves as a parable for the idea that the entry into the "Upper Room", understood as the correct knowledge of human connection with the visible heavens, is allegory for the dawn of the Age of Aquarius.  The Upper Room, famous site of the Last Supper, serves as allegory for the visible heavens of the sky.  The whole passion story works as astral allegory in which the redemption of the world is imagined through the framework of the reconciliation of spirit and nature, over a far longer time frame than conventionally imagined in orthodox readings.  

[TheDeconvertedMan]

21 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The dominant supernatural church beliefs of the Age of Pisces will then be discarded on the model of the separation of wheat and tares at the end of the age

Aren't the supernatural beliefs what make Christianity what it is? If you strip it all away, are you even left with Christianity or would it be different enough to be considered a different religion altogether?

 

21 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

the idea that the Age of Pisces is a time of preparation while the Age of Aquarius, which will only begin after everyone on the planet has heard of Jesus Christ

I thought the next age came after the correct number of years had passed, regardless of what was going on. I get that's quite literal, so maybe there's a more metaphorical interpretation of the changing age that you're talking about?

 

21 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The whole passion story works as astral allegory in which the redemption of the world is imagined through the framework of the reconciliation of spirit and nature

Interesting. I understood it to be reversed--that the passion story was taken from the Egyptian sun god Horus and the journey he took through the sky every day, where he ultimately fought with the god Set in the evening (sunset) and lost (died) only to resurrect again the next morning (sunrise). That same journey can be extrapolated out to the year (the sun dies in winter, resurrects in spring) and then even further to the Great Year. I understood the passion story in the Bible as taking this Egyptian story and making it literal by assigning it to a literal man named Jesus (Son/Sun) who literally died on a physical cross (as opposed to the zodiacal cross) who literally resurrected after 3 days (paralleling the 3 day solstice; or is it equinox? I always mix up those two).

 

21 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The Upper Room, famous site of the Last Supper, serves as allegory for the visible heavens of the sky.

I quite enjoy astrotheological interpretations of The Last Supper.

 

21 hours ago, Robert_Tulip said:

The man with the water jug symbolises the zodiac sign of Aquarius, and therefore also serves as a parable for the idea that the entry into the "Upper Room", understood as the correct knowledge of human connection with the visible heavens, is allegory for the dawn of the Age of Aquarius.

I've noticed a rapidly growing community of people who are pushing back on our grade school teachings (indoctrination, they'd call it). They're exploring the idea that our distant ancestors were not at all primitive and that their connection with the visible heavens--sun, moon, stars, Mercury through Saturn, zodiac--was far more than mere superstition. If this is the case, for the sake of argument, is relegating this correct knowledge to the age of Aquarius in the present day kind of limiting? Human connection with the visible heavens is one of the oldest ideas there is. Or are you suggesting that this age of Aquarius is when we make a return to that correct knowledge after losing our way for a couple thousand years?

 

Also: I'm not trying to derail you, your ideas, or your book. I'm asking because this is the kind of stuff that fascinates me these days. You've got a slightly different take on this area than I've heard before, so I'm trying to understand.

[Robert_Tulip]

7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

Aren't the supernatural beliefs what make Christianity what it is? If you strip it all away, are you even left with Christianity or would it be different enough to be considered a different religion altogether?

·       My view is that Christianity originated in a secret mystery wisdom society that combined Judaism and Greek philosophy together with diverse spiritual traditions from places such as Egypt, Babylon and India, strongly grounded in knowledge of the astronomy of precession. 

·       The New Testament largely originated from parabolic fictional texts within this community.  They wrote it with the intent that the general public should believe it was all literally true.  Of course the general public did believe it was true, but the authors did not realise that a result of this wild popularity would be that all memory of their existence would be expunged from history, because the church of course regarded the idea of the invention of Jesus to be a heretical anathema.

·       That means the astral reading I propose is presented as a way to uncover the authentic origins of Christianity, removing the supernatural dross that accumulated as a result of the political priorities of the orthodox church

7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

 

I thought the next age came after the correct number of years had passed, regardless of what was going on. I get that's quite literal, so maybe there's a more metaphorical interpretation of the changing age that you're talking about?

·       Calculating the exact length and timing of a zodiac age is open to several different interpretations.  I examine this at some length in my paper The Precessional Structure of Time.  The traditional estimate was 2160 years, but the actual length of the Great Year, the time for one cycle of the seasons around the stars, is 25771 years, and one twelfth of that is 2147.6 years, 12.4 years shorter than the tradition.

·       The further complication is from climate science, that the actual effect of precession on the earth combines this sidereal cycle of the Great Year together with an orbital motion called apsidal precession, which is the 113ky spin of the whole orbital ellipse of the earth.  The combined figure is about 21ky, defined by the date of the perihelion, when earth is closest to the sun, which last reached its low point, crossing the December solstice in 1246 AD.  On this Milankovitch Cycle timing, one ‘zodiac age’ would be only 1800 years. 

·       Next there is the problem of the somewhat arbitrary definition of when a zodiac age starts.  My favoured date for the start of the Age of Pisces is 16 September 21 AD, which I calculated using Skygazer astronomy software as the exact date when the equinox crossed the first fish of Pisces.  I consider this the most likely candidate for when the ancients defined the age, although back then they could not really calculate it to within a decade.  This timing could in my view be the basis for the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9.

7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

 

Interesting. I understood it to be reversed--that the passion story was taken from the Egyptian sun god Horus and the journey he took through the sky every day, where he ultimately fought with the god Set in the evening (sunset) and lost (died) only to resurrect again the next morning (sunrise). That same journey can be extrapolated out to the year (the sun dies in winter, resurrects in spring) and then even further to the Great Year. I understood the passion story in the Bible as taking this Egyptian story and making it literal by assigning it to a literal man named Jesus (Son/Sun) who literally died on a physical cross (as opposed to the zodiacal cross) who literally resurrected after 3 days (paralleling the 3 day solstice; or is it equinox? I always mix up those two).

·       I agree with Gerald Massey and Acharya S that the Egyptian influence on Christianity was massive, especially considering that the secret ‘laboratory’ was likely at the neo-Buddhist Therapeut monastery at Lake Mareotis in Alexandria. 

·       What you mean by “making it literal” here is far from clear.  There was of course no “literal” resurrection since people don’t recover from death.  The resurrection story is symbolic, not literal.  But that means that all the factors combine to produce a highly complex mythological story.

·       It is reasonable to mix up the solstice and equinox, since that is what happens in the Christian myth!  The solstice in December is when the sun ‘dies’ for about three days by rising at the same point on the horizon, sun still.  That observation informs both the Christmas story (also birth of Horus) and also the Easter story of Jesus dying for 40 hours.

7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

 

I quite enjoy astrotheological interpretations of The Last Supper.

·       Then you would like to watch my lecture last year to the Canberra Jung Society on the Da Vinci Stellar Template Hypothesis with text available at http://rtulip.net/astronomy

·       This is quite a revolutionary empirical demonstration that Leonardo’s “Upper Room” was the visible stars.

7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

I've noticed a rapidly growing community of people who are pushing back on our grade school teachings (indoctrination, they'd call it). They're exploring the idea that our distant ancestors were not at all primitive and that their connection with the visible heavens--sun, moon, stars, Mercury through Saturn, zodiac--was far more than mere superstition.

·       Christianity deserves a lot of blame for degrading and destroying knowledge of the ancient world.  Lost material can be imputed to some extent, but ancient astronomy was complex and sophisticated, making it an immense area of loss as a result of Christian dogmatic censorship, thought control and indoctrination.   There is much visual astronomy encoded within the New Testament.

7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

If this is the case, for the sake of argument, is relegating this correct knowledge to the age of Aquarius in the present day kind of limiting? Human connection with the visible heavens is one of the oldest ideas there is. Or are you suggesting that this age of Aquarius is when we make a return to that correct knowledge after losing our way for a couple thousand years?

·       This is a complicated question.  “Correct knowledge” comes from accurate observation, and of course our modern scientific knowledge of cosmology is far more accurate and precise and extensive than the merely visual methods available in the ancient world. 

·       However, as I have discussed at some length with Josh Pantera here and elsewhere, there is an amazing correlation between modern scientific knowledge and the ancient intuition of zodiac ages as reflected in Biblical cosmology.  How this arose is a mystery, but the key correlation is between the Milankovitch climate cycles of precession that I mentioned above and the Vedic myth of the Yuga cycle of gold and iron ages.  On this model, the ‘golden ages’ basically match perihelion in June and the ‘iron ages’ happen with perihelion in December.  Much more to say about that.

7 hours ago, TheDeconvertedMan said:

Also: I'm not trying to derail you, your ideas, or your book. I'm asking because this is the kind of stuff that fascinates me these days. You've got a slightly different take on this area than I've heard before, so I'm trying to understand.

·       Yes, I do have a different take, based on my own original research over the last 35 years.  I consider my approach to this material to be entirely scientific, and welcome the opportunity to share and discuss with others who are interested.

[Joshpantera]

On 3/26/2021 at 6:26 AM, Robert_Tulip said:

My view is that Christianity originated in a secret mystery wisdom society that combined Judaism and Greek philosophy together with diverse spiritual traditions from places such as Egypt, Babylon and India, strongly grounded in knowledge of the astronomy of precession. 

 

I'm sure you're going to get into this for your book, Robert, but taking it back to Egypt has a few interesting points that should be mentioned for TDM. Concerning the Zep Tepi issue, Sphinx, and the Giza Necropolis. And how those possibly relate. 

 

On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, TheDeconvertedMan said:

Human connection with the visible heavens is one of the oldest ideas there is. Or are you suggesting that this age of Aquarius is when we make a return to that correct knowledge after losing our way for a couple thousand years?

 

So Robert and I have been discussing this for what seems like a decade. Across several boards. I became interested in Robert Buvual's ideas about the stellar connections to the sphinx and pyramids. And I started INTJ-ing (analyzing the shit out of) the content and seeing many parallels. The main issue is that the Sphinx represents the former world age of Leo-Aquarius. Whether it was built way back then or built later to point back to that location at a previous time, I won't bother with right now. What I realized right away is that we're approaching the opposite world age which is the Aquarius-Leo axial age. Half a world age in time from what appears marked out that the Giza necropolis.  

 

Thinking on it some more, I began to see how different methods of observing the earth's wobbling axis is what the content is pointing to. Buvual found star shafts in the step pyramid that concern Egyptian observation of the northern circumpolar sky. As the earth spins like a wobbling top the position of the north star changes over a great year. And it looks like he found an orientation to that part of the sky. I kept cross references these issues against what we already knew about the astrotheology of the NT. And we kept brain storming together seeing how these things can unfold. 

 

So Robert and I started looking closer at these three different ways of viewing the effects of the earth's wobbling axial tilt. Precession of the equinoxes is the most popular. The sun rise at the equinoxes moving backwards through the zodiacal constellations.

 

The second is the pyramids at Giza reflecting the belt stars of Orion. The axis of the belt stars match up to the position at the age of Leo-Aquarius and they are more horizontal on the meridian at that time. When you follow the motion through time with astronomy software, the axis of the belt stars rises up to a more vertical position on the meridian. Until the age of Aquarius-Leo. Half way through the cycle. Then the motion reverses and the axis of the belt stars moves back towards a more horizontal position on the meridian again which seems to be commemorated at the Giza necropolis. I went into my astronomy software and playing this motion out through time to see it move and analyze the motion. 

 

The Third way is by the star shafts pointing to the northern circumpolar constellations. The north star moving around and changing locations. As the top wobbles, the axis of the earth's poles points off to different directions at different times. 

 

I could see how connections to the biblical writers could be found from all three. The most obvious is precession. That's popular and it's what what was buzzing around near the end of the first decade of this century. The world ages. But we started brainstorming Revelation and found what looks like references to the circumpolar constellations as well. Robert developed this further with astronomy software. And how some of the strange hybrid beasts appear to be stellar references like the rest. Not just a bad trip! 

 

To where what ever mystery school astronomy may have passed down from Egypt, could have been what the writer of Revelation was alluding to by including imagery of the northern circumpolar constellations via the imagery of strange hybrid beasts. This wasn't left field, because we already knew that the 12 jewels of Revelation are given as the jewels associated by old tradition with the zodiacal constellations, but in reverse order of the annual zodiac. We were working backwards from the clue to precession near the end of the book. Then found what could be axial wobble references further embedded and not as obvious which appear prior to that part of revelation. 

 

Have you seen the movie, "Momento?" Where the whole movie is working backwards? This what we were doing in Revelation taking the clue from the 12 Jewels and stepping it back. 

 

Then there's the big one. The second coming motif. The Great Year begins with the age of Pisces. Big celebration. The descending cycle comes to an end and the ascending cycle begins. But there's this third way of observing the effects of the earth's wobbling axis against Orion's belt stars over time. Which concerns the age of the Aquarius-Leo. So there is a FIRST coming of sorts with the age of Pisces. But the Orion belt stars haven't reached their maximum on the meridian yet. That happens during the SECOND world age of Aquarius-Leo. Two separate markers that have to do with observation of the earth's wobbling axial tilt that take place between the first two ages of the new Great Year. 

 

This is some of the back ground that goes into what Robert is saying. It would appear that astronomer-priests privy to mystery school knowledge and esoteric traditions probably dating back to Egypt were behind the 'under current' of symbolic astrotheological allegory in the NT writings. This is a completely different look at the myth of a first and second coming. And it involves the age of Aquaris-Leo being well anticipated by whoever the supposed esoterics responsible for this content were. I suppose that the second feature was celebrated as another marker or milestone within the Great Year concept. All of this has been mapped out over the years with illustrations and diagrams, plus astronomy software at times. Mostly on the freethoughtnation forums. We kept brainstorming the shit out of this issue over a period of years. And finding more and more pieces that may fit. 

 

And I have pointed out recently to Robert that there are passages in revelation that also go further and speak about the jesus' avatar taking on a "new name." I assume that has to do with the passage of time from Pisces-Virgo to Aquarius-Leo. Not only does it seem to forecast the changing of the ages but possibly the "Sun" taking on a "new name" when the ages change. Jesus being the Sun and the Sun having a new avatar and "name" for the Aquarian age. It was the Sun changing from Taurus to Aries as the avatars changed 'names.' It was the Sun changing from Aries to Pisces with the Moses to Jesus avatar or "name" transition in myth. 

 

Now here we are again, a transition from Pisces to Aquarius and the Sun, as per usual, should be changing avatars, personifications, and essentially "names." 

 

But that hasn't been developed any further at this point. It's just another possible clue to follow.  

[Joshpantera]

On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, TheDeconvertedMan said:

Aren't the supernatural beliefs what make Christianity what it is? If you strip it all away, are you even left with Christianity or would it be different enough to be considered a different religion altogether?

 

This is what I was talking about in the last post. People can interpret this stuff a million different ways. So this way is just as possible as any other I would assume. It could be taken as a different religion rising out of the Piscean age package that was hijacked by an exoteric oriented orthodoxy and literalist's.

 

If we continue stepping it backwards through Revelation from the 12 jewels of precession, to what came prior with the strange hybrid beasts of the northern circumpolar constellations, all of this content about a "new name" is found near the beginning in the first few chapters.

 

So what if it starts out with the big claims about the 'name change' as an announcement to churches (initiates) at the beginning, and then walks the reading 'astronomer-priest' initiate forward to the northern circumpolar constellations references, and then continues to the 12 jewels of precession references, in order to hammer home the astrotheological reasoning and the point of the "new name" change outlined in the beginning???? To support the proposition of the changes of 'name' with the changing of the world ages as logical and natural by astrotheological standard????

 

So while the bible can be said to foreshadow the age of Aquarius, it could also be that christ and christianity are the "names" limited to the Piscean age version of this solar mystery. Concisely mapped out to end accordingly. By astrotheological changing of world age avatar standards. The second coming is the same old Sun under a "new name" during the second world age of the new Great Year. 

 

It hints at chapter 2: 

 

¹⁷ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

 

Then continues into chapter 3: 

 

¹¹ I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 

[Robert_Tulip]

On 4/1/2021 at 1:39 PM, Joshpantera said:

the Sphinx represents the former world age of Leo-Aquarius. Whether it was built way back then or built later to point back to that location at a previous time, I won't bother with right now. What I realized right away is that we're approaching the opposite world age which is the Aquarius-Leo axial age. Half a world age in time from what appears marked out that the Giza necropolis.  

·       The sphinx is a man’s head with the body of a lion, combining the astrological signs of the man (Aquarius) and the Lion (Leo).  This stone carving erected in 1440 BC between the paws of the Great Sphinx at Giza explains this symbolism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Stele

·       The man on the right is pouring a jug of water, directly indicating the Aquarius symbol, while the man on the left is also pouring a jug,  suggesting far older use of this symbol than is generally recognised.

·       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Stele#/media/File:Giseh_Traumstele_(Lepsius)_01.jpg

·       The underlying myth here, also recognised by the mystical poet WB Yeats in his poem The Second Coming, is that the Golden Age was when the spring equinox was in the constellation of Leo, around 10,000 BC, and that the coming Age of Aquarius will mark the beginning of a return to the next Golden Age.

On 4/1/2021 at 1:39 PM, Joshpantera said:

Bauval found star shafts in the step pyramid that concern Egyptian observation of the northern circumpolar sky.

·       A star shaft in the Great Pyramid points directly to the North Celestial Pole.  A mainstream scientific explanation is at https://earthsky.org/brightest-stars/thuban-past-north-star  

On 4/1/2021 at 1:39 PM, Joshpantera said:

we started brainstorming Revelation and found what looks like references to the circumpolar constellations as well. Robert developed this further with astronomy software. And how some of the strange hybrid beasts appear to be stellar references like the rest. Not just a bad trip!  To where what ever mystery school astronomy may have passed down from Egypt, could have been what the writer of Revelation was alluding to by including imagery of the northern circumpolar constellations via the imagery of strange hybrid beasts.

From my forthcoming book

 

·       Polaris, the Pole Star, never moves from its position at the North Celestial Pole.  Or at least that is how it seems.  Polaris is a bright star in the constellation of the little bear. Sailors have used it for centuries to tell direction at sea.  But five thousand years ago, apparently when these ideas in the Bible were developed, Polaris was a long way from the pole, which was then in the constellation of the dragon, Draco, as shown in the picture below, produced using astronomy software Skygazer.  Polaris has moved its position in the sky as a result of the same slow wobble of the earth’s axis that causes the equinox points to move around the stars of the zodiac.

·       One of the strangest stories in the Bible is in the Revelation 13, where “the dragon gave his power, seat and authority to the leopard-bear-lion”.  This weird image looks like a hallucination.  But a quick review of the previous paragraph readily shows the real meaning.  The “power, seat and authority” of the visible heavens rest in the point around which the whole sky revolves, the North Celestial Pole.  In 2800 BC, the Pole was at the star Thuban in Draco, illustrated below.  Since then it has shifted through the bear, which is right next to constellations known as the lion and (formerly) the leopard.  The authors of the Revelation could see that this cosmic movement told the big history of deep time.  For the general public they packaged it in supernatural visions.  For the initiates, they explained the real meaning of accurate observation of the orderly movement of the heavens.

 

[TheDeconvertedMan]

As much as astrotheology and the Bible interests me, this conversation has now gone over my head. I only know very basic stuff and it's clear you two have gone deep. Please let me know of any resources y'all like that are worth studying. I'll also check out @Robert_Tulip links that he dropped a few posts ago.

[Myrkhoos]

Help theologians? Are you serious? They woukd probably not even read your book, let alone use it to reconfigure their beliefs. Do you imagine pope francis going...aaa yes...the gospels is just about stars in the sky? :))

[Robert_Tulip]

22 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Help theologians? Are you serious? They woukd probably not even read your book, let alone use it to reconfigure their beliefs.

Yes I am serious.  I plan to orient the book to engage with Christian theology, explaining its current weaknesses and how a scientific approach to Christian origins can help solve major problems and anomalies for the church as an institution.  I understand that bigots will reject this agenda out of hand, but my target audience is the theological community who are interested in truth.  I do not wish to treat theology with the automatic disdain and contempt that it often attracts.

22 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Do you imagine pope francis going...aaa yes...the gospels is just about stars in the sky? :))

The pope is constrained by institutional factors, but nonetheless has still opened very interesting scientific dialogue about integral ecology as a way to combine concern for the planet with concern for humanity in his Laudato Si encyclical of 2015, leading to his support for the radical concept of climate restoration.  This reveals underlying tectonic tensions within the Catholic Church that can become the basis for the type of upheaval a scientific reformation of faith would bring.  The Pope himself would obviously not engage with the ideas that I am presenting unless radical theologians took it seriously first.  It reminds me of Galileo's conversation with the papal Mathematician in Brecht's play Life of Galileo, where the Mathematician refuses to look at the moons of Jupiter through the telescope because he believes they are conceptually impossible.  We know where that ended up. 

[Myrkhoos]

51 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Yes I am serious.  I plan to orient the book to engage with Christian theology, explaining its current weaknesses and how a scientific approach to Christian origins can help solve major problems and anomalies for the church as an institution.  I understand that bigots will reject this agenda out of hand, but my target audience is the theological community who are interested in truth.  I do not wish to treat theology with the automatic disdain and contempt that it often attracts.

The pope is constrained by institutional factors, but nonetheless has still opened very interesting scientific dialogue about integral ecology as a way to combine concern for the planet with concern for humanity in his Laudato Si encyclical of 2015, leading to his support for the radical concept of climate restoration.  This reveals underlying tectonic tensions within the Catholic Church that can become the basis for the type of upheaval a scientific reformation of faith would bring.  The Pope himself would obviously not engage with the ideas that I am presenting unless radical theologians took it seriously first.  It reminds me of Galileo's conversation with the papal Mathematician in Brecht's play Life of Galileo, where the Mathematician refuses to look at the moons of Jupiter through the telescope because he believes they are conceptually impossible.  We know where that ended up. 

Go for it. I think it has almost zero chances of having big influence but you decide how you spend your time.

    I personally never thought science mattered much while I was in the Church. Bk what I thought was revealed by God trumps anuthing revealed by humans so rejecting anything that came from science was easy. My issue was when I could not be sure anymore what revelation was true and how.

    

[Robert_Tulip]

6 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Go for it. I think it has almost zero chances of having big influence but you decide how you spend your time.

    I personally never thought science mattered much while I was in the Church. Bk what I thought was revealed by God trumps anuthing revealed by humans so rejecting anything that came from science was easy. My issue was when I could not be sure anymore what revelation was true and how.

I understand that many ex-Christians feel a deep bitterness about the pervasive irrationality of religion, but that does not mean that religion has to be irrational on principle. 

 

Just promoting the idea that religion could be rational is important in itself, as a scientific question. 

 

It means the type of fundamentalist religion you describe, which considers logic to be Satanic, is outside the pale of rational discussion, so is not my target audience. 

 

There actually are people who would like Christianity to appeal to modern secular people, to reverse the death spiral into sectarian irrelevance in which the church now finds itself.

[Myrkhoos]

1 minute ago, Robert_Tulip said:

I understand that many ex-Christians feel a deep bitterness about the pervasive irrationality of religion, but that does not mean that religion has to be irrational on principle. 

 

Just promoting the idea that religion could be rational is important in itself, as a scientific question. 

 

It means the type of fundamentalist religion you describe, which considers logic to be Satanic, is outside the pale of rational discussion, so is not my target audience. 

 

There actually are people who would like Christianity to appeal to modern secular people, to reverse the death spiral into sectarian irrelevance in which the church now finds itself.

I do not think Christianity or religion is irrational in the broad sense. Nor did I think logic from Satan. But it has a specific epistemological hierarchy. Revelation comes first. And that is easy to understand. If you truly think some piece of information comes the Creator of the world himself, it is VERY rational to trust that over anything else. Why would I trust some foreever changing set of experiments , ideas and methods - scientific world, over the all eternal omniscient Creator? THAT would be irrational. The epistemological hierarchy of some parts of secularism put human reasoning first, and then test everything by that. So these things are mutually exclusive in a way.

        And , my guess is that, if anyone really thought some version of what you said is true, they would most likely abandon all Christianity and just call themselves secular people. What you are doing is basically secular preaching, using religion to prove secular religion, like some apoligists use science to prove religion. Like I said elsewhere, then why not just abandon the whole thing, relegate it to the space of ancient myths and works of literature, like the Metamorphes of Ovid or ancient greek myhts about Zeus? If you do that, religion become little more than some children's stories or interesting hobbies for enthusiasts. I think that would make it far more irrelevant that the sectarianism you mention. 

[Robert_Tulip]

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

I do not think Christianity or religion is irrational in the broad sense. Nor did I think logic from Satan. But it has a specific epistemological hierarchy. Revelation comes first. And that is easy to understand. If you truly think some piece of information comes the Creator of the world himself, it is VERY rational to trust that over anything else.

Sorry Myrkhoos, but what you describe here is the antithesis of rationality.  Revelation is not rational.  It is entirely about the emotional fervor of faith.  It sets up an axiom, that God created the world, for which there is no evidence at all, and which is not open to debate.  It is essential that rationality have capacity to question its presuppositions, to ensure that anything alleged to be self-evident does not have some better explanation.  For example, the premise that God Created the World is far better explained by analysing the social function of the concept of God to see the political and cultural interests served by such dogmatic metaphysical claims.

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

 

Why would I trust some foreever changing set of experiments , ideas and methods - scientific world, over the all eternal omniscient Creator? THAT would be irrational.

Well I trust science over theologians, because science has a method to test if its assertions concur with the evidence of our senses, and to eliminate claims that contradict well established fact.

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

The epistemological hierarchy of some parts of secularism put human reasoning first, and then test everything by that. So these things are mutually exclusive in a way.

The problem this raises is how human reasoning can justify religious practice without just saying God told me.  I think that can be done, but it requires a more enlightened appreciation of how religious stories function as parables, as moral symbols for natural observations and teachings.

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

        And , my guess is that, if anyone really thought some version of what you said is true, they would most likely abandon all Christianity and just call themselves secular people.

You have not understood my argument.  I am saying that Jesus was invented as Avatar of the Ages of Pisces and Aquarius, which means that the dawn of the Age of Aquarius, occurring over the next century, has to incorporate Christian principles at its centre.  The starting point for that is the Bible description of this paradigm shift, at Matt 25:31ff,  which splits the saved and the damned according to whether people have fed the hungry, given drink to the thirsty, clothed the naked, visited the sick, visited prisoners, welcomed strangers and treated the least of the world as though they were Jesus Christ.  If that is the moral system for the Age of Aquarius then it presents a method to see Christian origins in an entirely scientific light.

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

What you are doing is basically secular preaching, using religion to prove secular religion, like some apoligists use science to prove religion.

No, my analysis is not Christian apologetics.  I am not arguing for any Christian claims that cannot be justified by scientific evidence.  I am saying that Christian ethics can be placed on a secular foundation by understanding the astronomy that inspired the Gospels.

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Like I said elsewhere, then why not just abandon the whole thing, relegate it to the space of ancient myths and works of literature, like the Metamorphes of Ovid or ancient greek myhts about Zeus?

My view is that the Gospels provide a vital basis for modern ethics, but uncovering this basis, like separating grain from weeds, requires rational analysis of the astronomical source code behind the idea of Jesus Christ.  The Gospel of Mark is the greatest work of literature in history, since a work of fiction that manages to convince billions of people it is actually fact displays a remarkable insight and achievement of genius.

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

If you do that, religion become little more than some children's stories or interesting hobbies for enthusiasts.

The Christian vision of fall and redemption is a primary myth for the world, in that it is the great story that provides universal meaning and purpose regarding how humanity can continue to flourish on our planet.  As such, Christianity is in a different league from hobbies lie building model trains. The problem is that the current foundation sits within the fallen corrupt world of politics, but science has given us the tools to rebase faith on evidence, the evidence of astronomy as accurately understood by the ancients.

2 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

 

I think that would make it far more irrelevant that the sectarianism you mention. 

 You seem to be saying that basing faith on reason rather than alleged revelation would make it irrelevant.  We can debate whether basing faith on reason is possible, but it seems necessarily true that if faith could be justified by logic in ways that are compatible with evidence it would become more relevant, not less.

[Myrkhoos]

45 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

Sorry Myrkhoos, but what you describe here is the antithesis of rationality.  Revelation is not rational.  It is entirely about the emotional fervor of faith.  It sets up an axiom, that God created the world, for which there is no evidence at all, and which is not open to debate.  It is essential that rationality have capacity to question its presuppositions, to ensure that anything alleged to be self-evident does not have some better explanation.  For example, the premise that God Created the World is far better explained by analysing the social function of the concept of God to see the political and cultural interests served by such dogmatic metaphysical claims.

Well I trust science over theologians, because science has a method to test if its assertions concur with the evidence of our senses, and to eliminate claims that contradict well established fact.

The problem this raises is how human reasoning can justify religious practice without just saying God told me.  I think that can be done, but it requires a more enlightened appreciation of how religious stories function as parables, as moral symbols for natural observations and teachings.

You have not understood my argument.  I am saying that Jesus was invented as Avatar of the Ages of Pisces and Aquarius, which means that the dawn of the Age of Aquarius, occurring over the next century, has to incorporate Christian principles at its centre.  The starting point for that is the Bible description of this paradigm shift, at Matt 25:31ff,  which splits the saved and the damned according to whether people have fed the hungry, given drink to the thirsty, clothed the naked, visited the sick, visited prisoners, welcomed strangers and treated the least of the world as though they were Jesus Christ.  If that is the moral system for the Age of Aquarius then it presents a method to see Christian origins in an entirely scientific light.

No, my analysis is not Christian apologetics.  I am not arguing for any Christian claims that cannot be justified by scientific evidence.  I am saying that Christian ethics can be placed on a secular foundation by understanding the astronomy that inspired the Gospels.

My view is that the Gospels provide a vital basis for modern ethics, but uncovering this basis, like separating grain from weeds, requires rational analysis of the astronomical source code behind the idea of Jesus Christ.  The Gospel of Mark is the greatest work of literature in history, since a work of fiction that manages to convince billions of people it is actually fact displays a remarkable insight and achievement of genius.

The Christian vision of fall and redemption is a primary myth for the world, in that it is the great story that provides universal meaning and purpose regarding how humanity can continue to flourish on our planet.  As such, Christianity is in a different league from hobbies lie building model trains. The problem is that the current foundation sits within the fallen corrupt world of politics, but science has given us the tools to rebase faith on evidence, the evidence of astronomy as accurately understood by the ancients.

 You seem to be saying that basing faith on reason rather than alleged revelation would make it irrelevant.  We can debate whether basing faith on reason is possible, but it seems necessarily true that if faith could be justified by logic in ways that are compatible with evidence it would become more relevant, not less.

1. What I said one if one starts with that axiom, then everything follows, NOT tgat the axiom was justified. I do not think you can justify anything at that level without reverting to experience. Reason cannot justify reason , it would be circular. You too start from presuppositions, as does science. 

2.no offense but your story abou Jesus as Avatar of some Zodiac age sounds bonkers. Your starting point will make the majority of even open minded theologians probably look away. It is like saying Jesus was an alien.

I have other obs but it would take too much space. Anyway I said my impressions. Goid luck with the book!

[Robert_Tulip]

44 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

1. What I said one if one starts with that axiom, then everything follows, NOT tgat the axiom was justified. I do not think you can justify anything at that level without reverting to experience. Reason cannot justify reason , it would be circular. You too start from presuppositions, as does science. 

My presuppositions include that the universe exists as observed by science, and that it obeys consistent physical laws.  I am happy to try to uncover my assumptions and compare them with others. It is always important to ask if assumptions are held because they are likely to be true or because they are likely to be convenient.  Assuming that a personal intentional deity created the universe is convenient for those who wish to construct a priestly hierarchy, but is distinctly unhelpful in explaining any true observations.

44 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

2.no offense but your story abou Jesus as Avatar of some Zodiac age sounds bonkers. Your starting point will make the majority of even open minded theologians probably look away. It is like saying Jesus was an alien.

Exactly as the theologians of Galileo's day thought moons of Jupiter was a bonkers idea, as I mentioned above.  Galileo's observations just happened to accord with evidence.  The fact that you and many religious people would assume the idea of zodiac ages is impossible is a testament to the power of cultural conditioning and resistance to the study of scientific evidence.  Like heliocentrism, zodiac ages is a fairly simple empirical idea once you understand it, but it faces heavy barriers of prejudice.  The ignorant human brain naturally tends toward flat-earthism until the evidence against it is overwhelming.

[Myrkhoos]

21 minutes ago, Robert_Tulip said:

 

Exactly as the theologians of Galileo's day thought moons of Jupiter was a bonkers idea, as I mentioned above.  Galileo's observations just happened to accord with evidence.  The fact that you and many religious people would assume the idea of zodiac ages is impossible is a testament to the power of cultural conditioning and resistance to the study of scientific evidence.  Like heliocentrism, zodiac ages is a fairly simple empirical idea once you understand it, but it faces heavy barriers of prejudice.  The ignorant human brain naturally tends toward flat-earthism until the evidence against it is overwhelming.

Man please, are you really gonna compare astrology to the telescope images of jupiter's Moons? Really? As I said, go for it. And I think the vast majority of atheists also think the idea of zodiac ages is bonkers. You seriously don t realise how new agey and deepak chopra like your ideas sound like? I am not saying they are not true but it is going to be an uphill battle for them to be taken seriously by anyone, religious or not.

      And pls don t call me ignorant bk I don t really follow the zodiac. It makes YOU not me, look silly.

       

[Robert_Tulip]

45 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Man please, are you really gonna compare astrology to the telescope images of jupiter's Moons? Really? As I said, go for it.

No I am not.  I am talking just about the empirical observation of precession of the equinoxes, something that ancient astronomers could see, and the evidence of how the authors of the Bible thought.  Where the comparison to astronomical discoveries comes in is in the inability of people to see that precession informed Christian origins.  The comparison is not referring to any possible truth of any astrological claims, it is about the entirely scientific hypothesis that Christianity originated from observation of precession.

 

For example, there is a very simple and obvious correlation between the Christian Chi Rho Cross and the position of the equinox at the time of Jesus Christ, as just one startling piece of evidence for Jesus as avatar of the Age of Pisces, that haters of astrology refuse to look at.

45 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

And I think the vast majority of atheists also think the idea of zodiac ages is bonkers.

That just illustrates the bigoted thinking of the alleged "vast majority of atheists".  Zodiac ages are empirical periods of time.

45 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

You seriously don t realise how new agey and deepak chopra like your ideas sound like?

Of course I do.  I am talking about putting the Age of Aquarius into a purely scientific framework, recognising this is the subject of near universal derision except among hippies.  If you find anything I say that lacks empirical basis please let me know.

45 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

I am not saying they are not true but it is going to be an uphill battle for them to be taken seriously by anyone, religious or not.

      And pls don t call me ignorant bk I don t really follow the zodiac. It makes YOU not me, look silly.

I did not call you ignorant. My comment about ignorance was in relation to the broad tendency in human psychology that assumes prevailing beliefs are true. Precession is a technical discipline, and most people do not know the basic facts of it.  

[Myrkhoos]

Ok. I m just not interrsted in the topic right now to continue. Good luck! Hope you will become a literary star! (You get it? ) :))

[v__a__s__t]

1 hour ago, Robert_Tulip said:

it is about the entirely scientific hypothesis that Christianity originated from observation of precession.

 doesn't this sound rather unholistic though?

 

this sounds like an interesting subject but what if starting off, the premise is not holistic, but only one piece of a larger whole?

[Robert_Tulip]

4 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

 doesn't this sound rather unholistic though?

 

this sounds like an interesting subject but what if starting off, the premise is not holistic, but only one piece of a larger whole?

My view is that the precession hypothesis is entirely holistic.  The whole in question is how the earth physically relates to the cosmos.  The overall order of life on earth sits within the whole of time and space, but the immensity of infinity and eternity can only be properly encountered or imagined through a mediating whole, which for the origins of Christianity is the temporal structure of precession, which encompasses the whole relationship between the earth and the sun. 

 

There is a further astronomical dimension of this work that I have not mentioned that helps to explore this problem of the whole.  One part of my analysis is how precession relates to the integrated motion of the whole solar system, which has a wave function with period precisely one twelfth of a zodiac age.  NASA calculated this motion, defined as the distance of the sun to the solar system barycentre.  I produced this diagram depicting the NASA data, which integrates the whole of the mass of the solar system over the whole period of six thousand years from 3000 BC to 3000 AD.  

 

[Myrkhoos]

Altough, epistemology of ancient people is smth I am interested in. That includes astronomy and by that I mean general ideas about the sky and objects seen on the sky.

[Robert_Tulip]

11 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Altough, epistemology of ancient people is smth I am interested in. That includes astronomy and by that I mean general ideas about the sky and objects seen on the sky.

It is so interesting that you say "on" the sky, rather than "in" the sky, let alone "above" the sky".  This reflects a debate I have had with Richard Carrier, the mythicist author.  He argues that ancient epistemology imagined Jesus Christ as located as an entity in "outer space" who descended through the seven planetary heavens to be incarnated on earth. 

 

I completely disagree with that model, because the ancient use of the sky as a visible sheet of stars, the dome of the firmament, imagined the stars as a two dimensional surface, not as a three dimensional space, ie as the inner surface of a sphere surrounding the crystal spheres holding the planets.  When the Greeks said that Hercules or Perseus was placed in the sky as a constellation, they did not mean the stars were somehow a three dimensional structure representing the myth, as the visible heavens of the fixed stars are purely two dimensional, a surface without depth.  So with Jesus, he was imagined as represented by the equinox point, which is a very abstract way of imagining things, and is not helped by thinking he was an entity who descended from outer space, on the modern three dimensional understanding.