Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 The argument is always God is evil for not have sufficiently given Adam and Eve enough knowledge. But isn't there a point with humanity where God defines the law/morality. So I guess my question is why aren't the conditions rather the same, where God's commands to Adam essentially define holiness for the benefit of Adam/Eve, are morality defining for their benefit. And instead of death as was certain, grace was afforded by moving man to "test your holiness 2.0", outside of the garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 What are you asking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 27, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 27, 2021 Why would an omniscient god need to "test" anything? Shouldn't he have already known the answers? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 7 minutes ago, midniterider said: What are you asking? Think it more an observation that offers a different approach to the pat argument. We can look at what God offers in the garden vs what the snake offers and see a stark difference in the approach. ......do this and or you will die vs. deceit, jealousy, and death. Demonstrates our struggle with sin. Just hadn't noticed the type/pattern in the garden.... But I thought it worthy telling you bastards that you're still wrong....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 16 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Why would an omniscient god need to "test" anything? Shouldn't he have already known the answers? Why would His omniscience matter with respect to the autonomy of humanity. Yes, He did know.....the humans didn't. Idk, teaching and testing kind of walk hand in hand. I gather this would be more the initial lesson(s) vs. people willingly denying the lesson today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 27, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 27, 2021 Just now, Edgarcito said: Why would His omniscience matter with respect to the autonomy of humanity. Yes, He did know.....the humans didn't. Idk, teaching and testing kind of walk hand in hand. I gather this would be more the initial lesson(s) vs. people willingly denying the lesson today. But humanity has no autonomy in your story. "Do this or die" is not a genuine choice. "Do this or die and spend eternity in hell" is patently less of a genuine choice. We've been over this how many times now and you're still wrong about it. Dude! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 15 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: But humanity has no autonomy in your story. "Do this or die" is not a genuine choice. "Do this or die and spend eternity in hell" is patently less of a genuine choice. We've been over this how many times now and you're still wrong about it. Dude! Hell is lesson 3. Lesson in the garden, Mosaic lesson, and then the Christ lesson. Autonomy within subjectivity......ultimately two choices, eternal life or eternal death, that we are presented. And they do call Jesus "Teacher"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Hell is lesson 3. Lesson in the garden, Mosaic lesson, and then the Christ lesson. Autonomy within subjectivity......ultimately two choices, eternal life or eternal death, that we are presented. Hell is eternal life, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 Just now, midniterider said: Hell is eternal life, is it not? I'll have to think about it M....been too long since I've reviewed/considered the explanations of post physical earth life. Seems like the very final phase of a person was just no more.....but again, has been to long. I enjoy things discussion like this, but am still miffed at "church", so I don't study much anymore. I was forced to remember a verse this morning and found this analogy....thought it was worthy of sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 31 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Think it more an observation that offers a different approach to the pat argument. We can look at what God offers in the garden vs what the snake offers and see a stark difference in the approach. ......do this and or you will die vs. deceit, jealousy, and death. Demonstrates our struggle with sin. Just hadn't noticed the type/pattern in the garden.... But I thought it worthy telling you bastards that you're still wrong....lol. Deceit: That's where you tell two mentally deficient people not to do something, but you dont give them the means to discern why they should listen to you and not to the serpent who is 'bad' ... but whom you also allow in the garden. And then you put the object of temptation right there before the two mentally deficient people. I think this whole story secretly grinds against your intelligence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I'll have to think about it M....been too long since I've reviewed/considered the explanations of post physical earth life. Seems like the very final phase of a person was just no more.....but again, has been to long. I enjoy things discussion like this, but am still miffed at "church", so I don't study much anymore. I was forced to remember a verse this morning and found this analogy....thought it was worthy of sharing. I think there's the Christian people that believe you go to Hell forever...that would be umm, eternal life...just not a pleasant one. And then the other Christians who think death is the end. Not sure why that would be unpleasant. We've really worked over Adam and Eve to death, Ed. Cant we agree to disagree. Who are you trying to convince? Us? or You? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 5 minutes ago, midniterider said: I think there's the Christian people that believe you go to Hell forever...that would be umm, eternal life...just not a pleasant one. And then the other Christians who think death is the end. Not sure why that would be unpleasant. We've really worked over Adam and Eve to death, Ed. Cant we agree to disagree. Who are you trying to convince? Us? or You? If you don't see it as a different standpoint, not a biggie. Seemed rather eye-opening to me rather than the standard dilemma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 12 minutes ago, midniterider said: Deceit: That's where you tell two mentally deficient people not to do something, but you dont give them the means to discern why they should listen to you and not to the serpent who is 'bad' ... but whom you also allow in the garden. And then you put the object of temptation right there before the two mentally deficient people. I think this whole story secretly grinds against your intelligence. Given no one is born sufficient, we seemingly rely on experience, save One. Example one, teaching and that experience, or example two, deceit and that experience..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 27, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 27, 2021 10 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Hell is lesson 3. Lesson in the garden, Mosaic lesson, and then the Christ lesson. Autonomy within subjectivity......ultimately two choices, eternal life or eternal death, that we are presented. And they do call Jesus "Teacher"..... But why were any of the lessons necessary in the first place? It all goes back to whether god sufficiently prepared Adam and Eve for their first test or whether he left out some major information and set them up for failure. We both know which one god did according to the actual text. If you have to add your own interpretation to the story, then you're just making excuses for god. Why worship a god who needs constant excuses? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 27, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 27, 2021 10 hours ago, Edgarcito said: And they do call Jesus "Teacher"..... Calling someone by a particular title doesn't mean that person actually is that thing. I could call you an astronaut... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Calling someone by a particular title doesn't mean that person actually is that thing. I could call you an astronaut... Some people call me Maur-ice. Reee...raow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Calling someone by a particular title doesn't mean that person actually is that thing. I could call you an astronaut... I want to be called an astronaut!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 I honestly don t understand the OP. My probl with the Genesis story is that, as usually presented in judaism christianity and Islam, makes Adam and Eve look insane. Not just stupid. Stupid is me trying to repair a computer who won t start but not check if it is plugged. Believing a talking snake over your creator, benefactor, master and sustainer is insane. The same with the so called rebellion of Lucifer. An illuminated angel trying to take the place of its omniprezent omnipotent creator and sustainer. Insane. It is not even the level of wisdom of a foot fungus. And then Adam hid from God. Like that would be remotely possible. And covering yourself from a being that can see your digestive fluid bot to mention your skin. Adam and Eve are totally bonkers. And that remains the idea of mainstream Christians today. That people voluntarily knowingly choose evil. That is insanity if the worse degree. I mean what the... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 16 hours ago, Edgarcito said: The argument is always God is evil for not have sufficiently given Adam and Eve enough knowledge. ... I, for one, do not make this argument, and neither do many others. Accordingly, your claim, "[T]he argument is always...", is incorrect and can be considered a strawman argument of your own invention. Many folks observe that the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is flawed and is simply poorly written literature. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 17 hours ago, Edgarcito said: The argument is always God is evil for not have sufficiently given Adam and Eve enough knowledge. Not exactly, Edgarcito. The argument is that god is evil because he did these three things in Eden. 1. He created Adam and Eve without the ability to know or understand either good or evil. 2. He then gave them a command which they couldn't understand the consequences of obeying or disobeying. They couldn't understand that obedience was good and disobedience was evil. 3. Then, knowing all of this in advance and having set them up to fail his test, god punished and cursed them with death. That's why god is evil. 17 hours ago, Edgarcito said: But isn't there a point with humanity where God defines the law/morality. He didn't do that when it mattered, in Eden. And even if he had defined morality (good and evil) for Adam and Eve's benefit, they couldn't have understood him. He made them innocent and unable to understand either good or evil, remember? 17 hours ago, Edgarcito said: So I guess my question is why aren't the conditions rather the same, where God's commands to Adam essentially define holiness for the benefit of Adam/Eve, are morality defining for their benefit. Your guess is valueless, Edgarcito. Adam and Eve couldn't have understood the moral condition of holiness (perfect good) because god made them unable to understand it. God could have spent a thousand years defining good and evil in Eden and they still wouldn't have understood him. To say otherwise is to contradict what scripture says. 17 hours ago, Edgarcito said: And instead of death as was certain, grace was afforded by moving man to "test your holiness 2.0", outside of the garden. Death was certain for Adam and Eve because god set them up to fail his test. He did this by making them unable to understand either good or evil. That is why he is evil. Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 11 minutes ago, WalterP said: 2. He then gave them a command which they couldn't understand the consequences of obeying or disobeying. They couldn't understand that obedience was good and disobedience was evil. Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 Take a man born blind to an art gallery or show him a beautiful sunset or tell him to look down at the sleeping baby you've put into his arms. The result is always the same. Nothing changes the way he was made. He cannot learn to see. No amount of lessons, examples or training can change him from the way he was made. The man born blind stays blind. The only way to change that is if someone intervenes on his behalf and gives him the power of sight. If god had given Adam and Eve the ability to understand good or evil, before they ate the fruit of the tree, then scripture would say so. But you are trying to add to scripture, Edgaricto. Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 3 hours ago, midniterider said: Well put. Which is my point...I'm not a Biblical scholar by any means, but at one point was the law not given to a group of people that didn't understand there ever was a dividing line? Why is it so egregious that God give a line to His creation that they may forevermore be holy and have eternal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 4 hours ago, sdelsolray said: I, for one, do not make this argument, and neither do many others. Accordingly, your claim, "[T]he argument is always...", is incorrect and can be considered a strawman argument of your own invention. Many folks observe that the Genesis story of Adam and Eve is flawed and is simply poorly written literature. I guess for your occupation you have to make each word extremely literal.... or former occupation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 If you started a job and some guy named Fred says "Never press this big red button or all hell will break loose... " then walks away...so you ask your coworkers who Fred is and they say "I dont know..." nor do they have an answer about the button, this would eventually be a worker's compensation claim and OSHA violation. I think Adam and Eve need a good lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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