Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 10, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2021 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: God's intent was law resulting in holiness. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: The serpent introduces increased wisdom and that "you will not die" to the mix. In Gen 2, it was apparent that the trees were pleasing to the eye and good for food prior to the conversation with the serpent. Again, after visiting with the serpent, we have two more aspects to the list of tree qualities. Eve could have been sincere in her innocence that perspective was a plus for she and Adam....and life as well. AFTER she ate, her then testimony to God was that the serpent deceived me. It makes sense that she would understand deception AFTER she gained the knowledge of good and evil. I hold to my revelation that God's intent was law resulting in holiness. The serpent's instructions were not... Need we discuss further Oh wait, which tree are you choosing...(and you Josh, you knowledge tree eating bastard). Your revelation is that god's intent was law leading to unthinking robotic obedience. How can law lead to holiness if its meaning isn't understood by the one it applies to? You can't achieve holiness without understanding how to get there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v__a__s__t Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 1 hour ago, WalterP said: Your revelation is that god's intent was law leading to unthinking robotic obedience. why assume that law keeping leads to robot- likeness? 1 hour ago, WalterP said: How can law lead to holiness if its meaning isn't understood by the one it applies to? through faith, and the help of the holy spirit. spirit helps us understand things we possibly couldn't otherwise. but if any man lacks this he could probably find if he wants to - seek. 1 hour ago, WalterP said: You can't achieve holiness without understanding how to get there. with faith in their/our creator/father (God) plus the help of the spirit that enlightens the mind... they/we might be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v__a__s__t Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said: why assume that law keeping leads to robot- likeness? through faith, and the help of the holy spirit. spirit helps us understand things we possibly couldn't otherwise. but if any man lacks this he could probably find if he wants to - seek. with faith in their/our creator/father (God) plus the help of the spirit that enlightens the mind... they/you/i might be able to. have you tried it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v__a__s__t Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Why? because disorder (sin) leads to suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 10, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2021 2 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: because disorder (sin) leads to suffering. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 16 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Why? Would have to go back to the children analogy. Would be like watching your children before they become cognizant of choice and ramifications.... the love, the joy. I expect had A&E continued to exist obedient to God’s commands, they would have been in an existence always on the right side of the dichotomy that we realize. Whether that is robot status... I don’t remember thinking I was a robot as a child. I can see that point but on some level there is much greater satisfaction moving through a day understanding and maintaining the law... overcoming. Likely many verses describing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 2 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: because disorder (sin) leads to suffering. +1 Christians can’t upvote vast... so I have to do it manually. Excellent answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 10, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Would have to go back to the children analogy. Would be like watching your children before they become cognizant of choice and ramifications.... the love, the joy. I expect had A&E continued to exist obedient to God’s commands, they would have been in an existence always on the right side of the dichotomy that we realize. Whether that is robot status... I don’t remember thinking I was a robot as a child. I can see that point but on some level there is much greater satisfaction moving through a day understanding and maintaining the law... overcoming. Likely many verses describing this. Okay, but your point was about holiness and my question was about holiness, so talking about childishness instead of holiness was a waste of both of our time. Why was god's intent "law resulting in holiness?" Why did Adam and Eve need to be holy? Why weren't they holy before eating the fruit? And, since you brought it up, how would not eating the fruit have led to holiness if they weren't already holy when they were created? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 10, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2021 Reminder: The Adam and Eve story is just that, a story. One made up the same as countless other creation myths. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Would have to go back to the children analogy. Would be like watching your children before they become cognizant of choice and ramifications.... the love, the joy. I expect had A&E continued to exist obedient to God’s commands, they would have been in an existence always on the right side of the dichotomy that we realize. Whether that is robot status... I don’t remember thinking I was a robot as a child. I can see that point but on some level there is much greater satisfaction moving through a day understanding and maintaining the law... overcoming. Likely many verses describing this. Then what's the purpose of the actual tree? There's no need for a magic tree to contain anything much less the knowledge of good and evil. They could have just been told to not touch some tree and when they did they got a spanking or something. No magic knowledge. Just some law to make them holy, right? Just like when kids disobey their parents. Nothing magic happens to mentally change them into adults. No parents claim "the child has become like us" when their kids don't listen. No parents curse them and put them out of the house to make their lives worse. Well, reasonable parents. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 23 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Okay, but your point was about holiness and my question was about holiness, so talking about childishness instead of holiness was a waste of both of our time. Why was god's intent "law resulting in holiness?" Why did Adam and Eve need to be holy? Why weren't they holy before eating the fruit? And, since you brought it up, how would not eating the fruit have led to holiness if they weren't already holy when they were created? Idk... could be several things to consider... holiness in children is a function of innocence? We see that they have choice bc the choices were available in the garden. Maybe God wanted them to be holy in maturity as well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 10, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2021 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Idk... could be several things to consider... holiness in children is a function of innocence? We see that they have choice bc the choices were available in the garden. Maybe God wanted them to be holy in maturity as well.... Why would god want, or need, them to be holy? He didn't create them holy; and eating the fruit did not make them holy (or unholy, for that matter, since they weren't holy to begin with). So what was god's purpose in making unholy people when he wanted holy ones? And how did entrapping them into "sin" serve his purpose? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 5 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: because disorder (sin) leads to suffering. And the punishment of innocent children who were tricked into breaking a law also brings suffering. And to ALL of the descendants of these two children. I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labour you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” The suffering of painful childbirth inflicted on ALL women and not just on Eve? “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” The suffering of lifelong painful toil and then the suffering of death, inflicted on ALL people and not just on Adam? Surely only Adam and Eve should be held accountable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Really, Edgarcito? If a devious adult tricked your children, while they were young and vulnerable, into breaking a law, you'd WANT them prosecuted to the full extent of the law because they brought this suffering upon themselves? You set me a Yes or No question yesterday, so now its my turn. Yes or No? Please answer. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 7 hours ago, WalterP said: Your revelation is that god's intent was law leading to unthinking robotic obedience. How can law lead to holiness if its meaning isn't understood by the one it applies to? You can't achieve holiness without understanding how to get there. Unthinking robotic obedience is apparently holiness in the world of Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 6 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: why assume that law keeping leads to robot- likeness? Following real life laws in our society is generally good for our well-being. The Adam and Eve myth is a poorly designed story that Christians have to swallow in order to continue to be Christians. Now if I wanted to believe in Jesus I just would and would also ignore the bible. I wouldnt come to the Lions Den to debate obvious biblical nonsense. 6 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: through faith, and the help of the holy spirit. spirit helps us understand things we possibly couldn't otherwise. but if any man lacks this he could probably find if he wants to - seek. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is all I need. 6 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: with faith in their/our creator/father (God) plus the help of the spirit that enlightens the mind... they/we might be able to. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is all I need. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 12 minutes ago, midniterider said: Unthinking robotic obedience is apparently holiness in the world of Christianity. I think you're making the wrong conclusion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 6 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: why assume that law keeping leads to robot- likeness? Because there was only one law in Eden and if Adam and Eve hadn't broken it they would stay as god made them. With no moral compass and no hope of gaining one. With no hope of being anything other than the keepers of god's garden. Just there to obey and not to think. 6 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: through faith, and the help of the holy spirit. spirit helps us understand things we possibly couldn't otherwise. but if any man lacks this he could probably find if he wants to - seek. with faith in their/our creator/father (God) plus the help of the spirit that enlightens the mind... they/we might be able to. I've answered this. There was no room for faith in Eden. Faith is only for things not seen and things promised. Adam and Eve had no need of faith because they saw god face-to-face, every day. So you are wrong about this, v_a_s-t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 28 minutes ago, WalterP said: Really, Edgarcito? If a devious adult tricked your children, while they were young and vulnerable, into breaking a law, you'd WANT them prosecuted to the full extent of the law because they brought this suffering upon themselves? You set me a Yes or No question yesterday, so now its my turn. Yes or No? Please answer. Walter. You will need to demonstrate intent Walter. You easily ASSIGN intent to God. You'll need to show it in Scripture.. The answer would be yes. I'm certain the entity Satan get's the full extent in the end. One more question.....are we God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 10, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2021 14 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: are we God? I am. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Just now, Edgarcito said: You will need to demonstrate intent Walter. You easily ASSIGN intent to God. You'll need to show it in Scripture.. The answer would be yes. I'm certain the entity Satan get's the full extent in the end. One more question.....are we God? Oh ok then, Edgarcito. From scripture. John 8 : 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Revelation 12 : 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 2 Corinthians 11 : 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. There, that establishes the intent of the serpent, a.k.a Satan. Now, its time for you to answer my question, Edgarctio. I will repeat it. Please answer. If a devious adult tricked your children, while they were young and vulnerable, into breaking a law, you'd WANT them prosecuted to the full extent of the law because they brought this suffering upon themselves? Yes or No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 9 minutes ago, WalterP said: Oh ok then, Edgarcito. From scripture. John 8 : 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Revelation 12 : 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 2 Corinthians 11 : 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. There, that establishes the intent of the serpent, a.k.a Satan. Now, its time for you to answer my question, Edgarctio. I will repeat it. Please answer. If a devious adult tricked your children, while they were young and vulnerable, into breaking a law, you'd WANT them prosecuted to the full extent of the law because they brought this suffering upon themselves? Yes or No? Which "adult" are you referring to please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Which "adult" are you referring to please Any devious adult will do. Please answer the question, Edgarcito. If a devious adult tricked your children, while they were young and vulnerable, into breaking a law, you'd WANT them prosecuted to the full extent of the law because they brought this suffering upon themselves? Yes or No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 If you're struggling and want a bit more clarification Edgarcito... A devious adult who is a cunning, murdering liar. That should help. Please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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