Edgarcito Posted March 31, 2021 Author Share Posted March 31, 2021 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: I've listened and participated over the years at EX C probably more than ANY Christian has in the history of this site Walter.....a complaint btw, from former Christians, that "they don't know us". I feel like I have a decent grasp or at least a grasp. So I don't think it unusual for anger to dissipate for people like me that can rationalize our feelings.... or at least some of them. So it doesn't come as any surprise why you can't have an across the table discussion rather than passive aggression.... (the last sentence is passive aggression put in there just because you're an ass). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 STOP! We've got it all wrong about Adam. (I'm counting myself in this too.) Of course he seems like a weak-willed coward for trying to shift the blame on to Eve. But we've fallen into the classic trap of thinking that because Adam has the body of a mature man, he's therefore an emotionally mature and responsible adult who can properly understand the consequences of his actions. But he isn't. As I've been arguing in this thread, neither Adam nor Eve are properly human adults as we would understand what human adults are. In our experience properly mature human adults have a better understanding of the consequences of the actions than children do. That's why we have stipulations in law that exempt children below a certain age from responsibility for their actions. Furthermore, any adult will have an experience base of at least 18 years of development that they can call upon to help inform their decision-making processes. During those 18 years they will (usually) have had guidance and tuition from their parents; helpful input that they can call upon to assist them in understanding how they should behave and react. As they grew up these people would (usually) naturally form strong bonds of affection and love with their parents. When these bonds are absent and when parental guidance is absent we refer to that person's upbringing as dysfunctional. When an adult has little or no grasp of the consequences of their actions we refer to that person as aberrant or even psychopathic. To make matters worse for Adam and Eve, they were denied the ability that most adults develop over their formative years. Specifically, the development of a moral compass that can tell good from evil. So, the bottom line for Adam is this. Although he was made with an adult body, he was an emotional and moral child. If you step back and think about it for a moment, he did exactly what children do when they've done something bad or broken a rule and been found out. They dodge and try to pass the blame. We've been giving Adam a hard time in this thread, but I submit that he doesn't deserve our criticism. Unless it's ok for us to be critical of a child with no moral compass who had no proper parenting, a hyper-dysfunctional upbringing and who was lied to by the only authority figure in his life. Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I've listened and participated over the years at EX C probably more than ANY Christian has in the history of this site Walter.....a complaint btw, from former Christians, that "they don't know us". I feel like I have a decent grasp or at least a grasp. So I don't think it unusual for anger to dissipate for people like me that can rationalize our feelings.... or at least some of them. So it doesn't come as any surprise why you can't have an across the table discussion rather than passive aggression.... You don't get to say what happens in the Den by how long you've been a member, Edgaricto. Length of membership earns no special rights or privileges here. Across the table discussions aren't for any part of Ex-C devoted to debates. Why? Because debates are, by definition, adversarial. But... ...if would like to spend your time and energy trying to persuade the Moderators to change what happens in the Den for your benefit and comfort, then please don't let me stop you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 31, 2021 Author Share Posted March 31, 2021 20 minutes ago, WalterP said: You don't get to say what happens in the Den by how long you've been a member, Edgaricto. Length of membership earns no special rights or privileges here. Across the table discussions aren't for any part of Ex-C devoted to debates. Why? Because debates are, by definition, adversarial. But... ...if would like to spend your time and energy trying to persuade the Moderators to change what happens in the Den for your benefit and comfort, then please don't let me stop you. Walter. Moron....where did I suggest changing anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 31, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 31, 2021 Sorry, Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Moron....where did I suggest changing anything.... If you want a discussion here then you are trying to change the adversarial nature of the debates that happen here. A discussion is not a debate. The Den, the Colosseum and the Arena are debating areas, not discussion areas. If you scroll up above the title of this thread, 'The Law in the Garden' you will see this... Home > Discussions > Debate Areas > The Lion's Den > The Law in the Garden That tells you where you are and what happens here, Edgarcito. You posted this thread in a debating area and since debates are adversarial they aren't places for discussions. If you want a discussion, find a part of Ex-C that's a discussion area and start a thread there. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 31, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 31, 2021 @WalterP, in edgarcito's defense, he has always respected our rules and forum guidelines, and, as a christian, has kept himself confined to posting in The Den, where christians are free to post without much Moderator scrutiny. Whether he wants a friendly discussion or he secretly wants a rough-and-tumbly is his decision to make and is not dictated by which forum he feels comfortable posting in. Whether or not to make this molehill into anything bigger is, of course, your prerogative; but I don't see arguing over whether someone wants to argue or not as a worthwhile expenditure of time or energy. Thanks, John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Why did Adam shift the blame, though? Maybe just maybe he was so afraid of fhe consequences that he even tried to hide. And given the punishment given - thousand year old curse on him and his descendants, I am not surprised. if you had a father that will torment you and yoir children for thousands of years maybe you would also shift blame in a state filled with dread. Traditionally he was accused of pride. And an inability to process shame. That may be so but what does thousand year old curse actually do to help ghat. I admit defeat in understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 " So it doesn't come as any surprise why you can't have an across the table discussion rather than passive aggression.... " How would an across the table discussion work? To you, Edgar, Jesus is real. To us, he is a mythical character. Did you want us to assume he's real? I dont see that happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 hour ago, midniterider said: " So it doesn't come as any surprise why you can't have an across the table discussion rather than passive aggression.... " How would an across the table discussion work? To you, Edgar, Jesus is real. To us, he is a mythical character. Did you want us to assume he's real? I dont see that happening. Virtually all threads involving End3 require playing in his sandbox, i.e., pretending his sky fairies actually exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 1, 2021 Author Share Posted April 1, 2021 13 hours ago, midniterider said: " So it doesn't come as any surprise why you can't have an across the table discussion rather than passive aggression.... " How would an across the table discussion work? To you, Edgar, Jesus is real. To us, he is a mythical character. Did you want us to assume he's real? I dont see that happening. I don't have expectations that anyone here should believe again. It would be nice though to actually respect that each person has their place in life and respect them at that point in their beliefs. Such as, "Yeah Ed, I don't remember seeing that relationship when I was a Christian, but yeah, I can see that.". Or, "I think that is invalid because of, but I can see where you are coming from". I gather there are people wounded here. It was a war for me a few years back, but not now. I guess Walter is still in the war stage....not a biggie. But is the point NOT to grow....i.e.,, a permanent rift between factions? Ed's a decent guy, but we are always going to attempt to smash his beliefs to bits because of our own shit. I consider most of you friends despite past discussions.....that's just a part of the deal. That we know each other works in everyone's favor. It used to bother me, not anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 1, 2021 Author Share Posted April 1, 2021 12 hours ago, sdelsolray said: Virtually all threads involving End3 require playing in his sandbox, i.e., pretending his sky fairies actually exist. Appreciated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted April 1, 2021 Author Share Posted April 1, 2021 14 hours ago, Myrkhoos said: Why did Adam shift the blame, though? Maybe just maybe he was so afraid of fhe consequences that he even tried to hide. And given the punishment given - thousand year old curse on him and his descendants, I am not surprised. if you had a father that will torment you and yoir children for thousands of years maybe you would also shift blame in a state filled with dread. Traditionally he was accused of pride. And an inability to process shame. That may be so but what does thousand year old curse actually do to help ghat. I admit defeat in understanding. "It's not my fault" is the response of a child. As I speculated before, the spiritual evolution of man in the Bible appears much like that of a child from birth to grave. It's not my fault, to here are the lessons to be learned, to I'm taking responsibility....Adam(man) was in stage one of growth. All just my theory mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 13 hours ago, Myrkhoos said: Why did Adam shift the blame, though? Maybe just maybe he was so afraid of fhe consequences that he even tried to hide. And given the punishment given - thousand year old curse on him and his descendants, I am not surprised. if you had a father that will torment you and yoir children for thousands of years maybe you would also shift blame in a state filled with dread. Traditionally he was accused of pride. And an inability to process shame. That may be so but what does thousand year old curse actually do to help ghat. I admit defeat in understanding. No, I don't think so Myrkhoos. My line in this thread has been that because Adam was made without the ability to recognize or understand the moral conditions of good and evil he therefore wouldn't have been able to understand why he should be punished for acting against god's command not to eat from the tree. He had no concept of the consequences and repercussions of his actions, just as a small child has no real concept of their responsibility for their actions. But when he ate the fruit he suddenly became aware of what good and evil were and he and became aware and understood that his act of disobedience carried with it personal responsibility on his part. What happens when small children suddenly realize that they've been found out by an authority figure? They become frightened and they try to shift the blame. Which is what the text of Genesis says, both Adam and Eve were frightened. Scripture is telling us that Adam didn't act like a mature and responsible adult. Instead he acted just like a frightened child trying to escape punishment. Does that help? Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Just now, Edgarcito said: "It's not my fault" is the response of a child. As I speculated before, the spiritual evolution of man in the Bible appears much like that of a child from birth to grave. It's not my fault, to here are the lessons to be learned, to I'm taking responsibility....Adam(man) was in stage one of growth. All just my theory mind you. If god knew that Adam and Eve were unevolved spiritual children, why would he secretly hang such a great burden of responsibility on them? Also, how can two spiritual innocents with no concept of right and wrong be held accountable for doing wrong? How can two children learn what good and evil are if they were made unable to understand these things? How can two children be expected to understand what death is if god wouldn't explain to them? How can two children be expected to understand what punishment is if god wouldn't explain it to them? How can two children be expected to learn from their mistakes if they are punished to the max for their first mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: But is the point NOT to grow....i.e.,, a permanent rift between factions? Ed's a decent guy, but we are always going to attempt to smash his beliefs to bits because of our own shit. No. Not not because of my own shit. That's a cheap shot on your part to make me out as the bad guy here. There are three reasons why I smash your beliefs to bits, Edgarcito. 1. Because showing how irrational and unreasonable your beliefs are helps the lurkers. 2. Because testing your beliefs to destruction helps me refine my own understanding and I can then pass this on to anyone in this forum who is willing to learn from it. 3. Because, even though you've had ten + years of stubbornly resisting the help given to you, a small part of me still hopes that by repeatedly smashing your beliefs to bits you will one day stop being defiant for defiance's sake and open yourself up to the possibility that your beliefs are false. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v__a__s__t Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 hours ago, WalterP said: 2 hours ago, WalterP said: There are three reasons why I smash your beliefs to bits, .... by repeatedly smashing your beliefs to bits you will one day stop being defiant ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v__a__s__t Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: It would be nice though to actually respect that each person has their place in life and respect them at that point in their beliefs. Such as, "Yeah Ed, I don't remember seeing that relationship when I was a Christian, but yeah, I can see that.". Or, "I think that is invalid because of, but I can see where you are coming from". .... But is the point NOT to grow.... 2 hours ago, WalterP said: ... you will one day stop being defiant for defiance's sake and open yourself up ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 1, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 1, 2021 Every culture has its own creation myth so there are hundreds, maybe thousands. Even the Bible has two distinct creation accounts in Genesis. Why do people insist on arguing the "finer points" as if the Adam and Eve tale is an account of actual, verifiable history? It's a fucking myth like all the others. It's as genetically impossible for humanity to have arisen from an Adam and Eve type "first couple" as it is for us to have come from a rhubarb (ancient Persia). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Playing in theists' sandboxes is often boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 27 minutes ago, florduh said: Every culture has its own creation myth so there are hundreds, maybe thousands. Even the Bible has two distinct creation accounts in Genesis. Why do people insist on arguing the "finer points" as if the Adam and Eve tale is an account of actual, verifiable history? It's a fucking myth like all the others. It's as genetically impossible for humanity to have arisen from an Adam and Eve type "first couple" as it is for us to have come from a rhubarb (ancient Persia). So, YOU are the rhubarb cult leader I have been hearing about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 5 hours ago, WalterP said: No, I don't think so Myrkhoos. My line in this thread has been that because Adam was made without the ability to recognize or understand the moral conditions of good and evil he therefore wouldn't have been able to understand why he should be punished for acting against god's command not to eat from the tree. He had no concept of the consequences and repercussions of his actions, just as a small child has no real concept of their responsibility for their actions. But when he ate the fruit he suddenly became aware of what good and evil were and he and became aware and understood that his act of disobedience carried with it personal responsibility on his part. What happens when small children suddenly realize that they've been found out by an authority figure? They become frightened and they try to shift the blame. Which is what the text of Genesis says, both Adam and Eve were frightened. Scripture is telling us that Adam didn't act like a mature and responsible adult. Instead he acted just like a frightened child trying to escape punishment. Does that help? Thank you. Walter. I always thought Adam was created with that knowledge. Anyway...that story can mean most anything with the "right" interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Myrkhoos said: I always thought Adam was created with that knowledge. Anyway...that story can mean most anything with the "right" interpretation. No, Myrkhoos. The knowledge of good and evil was locked up in the fruit of the forbidden tree. If Adam had been created with that knowledge, then he needn't have eaten the fruit to gain that knowledge. Scripture tells us exactly when he acquired that knowledge. Genesis 3 : 22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So, Adam came to know the difference between good and evil once he ate the fruit, not before then. He was made without that knowledge. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted April 2, 2021 Share Posted April 2, 2021 5 hours ago, WalterP said: No, Myrkhoos. The knowledge of good and evil was locked up in the fruit of the forbidden tree. If Adam had been created with that knowledge, then he needn't have eaten the fruit to gain that knowledge. Scripture tells us exactly when he acquired that knowledge. Genesis 3 : 22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So, Adam came to know the difference between good and evil once he ate the fruit, not before then. He was made without that knowledge. Thank you. Walter. Well, not knowing good and evil does not mean necrssarily he did not understand God's command about death. As I said it realky depends on you think those words mean and there is a tradition of thousands of volumes disagreeing on what that actually meant. What Scripture says is a hotly debated topic even amongst Christians and Jews and to some extent Muslims as the Korannhas a version of the same story. So I would not be sure so certain about what Scripture "says" or means. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 2, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted April 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said: So I would not be sure so certain about what Scripture "says" or means. But it's definitely the infallible revelation of an omniscient god about himself, so we can trust it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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