When morality is subjective and there's no absolute, where is the boundary line and how do you decide on what's wrong or right?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Morality, even for christians, is subjective.  How often have we seen "immoral" acts justified by those most vocal about their high standards and values?  I'm not merely referring to slavery or misogyny; but also pro-lifers who justify abortions for themselves or support the policeman who murdered a black man in cold blood.  Or the pastor who rails against gays found in bed with a male prostitute. 

 

We define our own morality, irrespective of our subjective beliefs.  In theory, doing unto others as we would have done to us is a plausible basis for a functional collective society.  But our own selfishness and ego often hinder our efforts.  We definitely want others to do unto us as we would have them to; but we often can't seem to do unto them accordingly. 

 

I suspect this hindrance is a by-product of the dualistic nature of human beings, with the capacity for rational thought coupled with raw emotion.  Many are too emotional to be rational; but others are rational to the point of not being capable of feeling the empathy, sympathy, and compassion that is at the heart of true morality.  As such, our morality is subject to change, on a sometimes daily, or even hourly, basis--a reflection either of a change of heart, or a change of mind.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Morality, even for christians, is subjective.  How often have we seen "immoral" acts justified by those most vocal about their high standards and values? 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/17/us/robert-aaron-long-suspected-shooter/index.html

 

This Christian 'had' to kill other people probably because of that ignorant scripture in the new testament that says that "sexual thoughts about people are equal to adultery." Mt 5:27-28. If this absurdity and the other purity culture nonsense was not in the bible and not taught in church then maybe the victims would be alive today.

 

Christian morality fail. 

[sdelsolray]

5 hours ago, Georgia said:

 

I suppose we have to define morality

...

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is a good idea.  Your first posts were already modifying the noun "morality" with two adjectives, "subjective" and "absolute".

 

For purposes of this discussion, let's see if we can first agree on an underlying definition of "morality" and/or "moral", before modifying it with those adjectives.

[Georgia]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Morality, even for christians, is subjective.  How often have we seen "immoral" acts justified by those most vocal about their high standards and values?  I'm not merely referring to slavery or misogyny; but also pro-lifers who justify abortions for themselves or support the policeman who murdered a black man in cold blood.  Or the pastor who rails against gays found in bed with a male prostitute. 

 

 

 

The bible doesn't encourage these behaviours though, so if a Christian is doing these things it would be seen as transgression of the law, not a subjective morality. 

 

What I am trying to get at is how can you punish others from doing "wrong" when morality is seen as subjective... 

 

There were a group of people who tried to get the age of consent lowered to about 7, so adults could have sex with children. They were tax paying, working individuals living inthe West. They believe this to be right in their subjective morality so how can someone else with subjective morality say this behavior is wrong? It's all subjective?? 

[midniterider]

7 hours ago, Georgia said:

Hey Guys, 

 

Interested to hear your thoughts on subjective morality, how do non believers decide what's right and wrong if you don't believe in an absolute? If morality is subjective how do we punish people for doing wrong? Doesn't that just become a battle of moral opinion? 

 

Hope the question makes sense 

 

Thanks 

 

My atheist parents taught me what was right and wrong based on not harming people. Just like you were (probably) taught by your parents. Christians and non-Christians are taught compassion, love and caring for one another. We are also taught that harming others is wrong. In fact society has created many laws that dictate consequences for harmful behavior. 

 

How is God's morality superior to non-religious morality? How do Christians live more moral lives under God's morality than the average non-believer under human morality?

 

It seems to me that if God decides he can do any damn thing he wants, but us doing the same thing is wrong....then God's morality is subjective (based on or influenced by [God's] personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.)

[Georgia]

16 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/17/us/robert-aaron-long-suspected-shooter/index.html

 

This Christian 'had' to kill other people probably because of that ignorant scripture in the new testament that says that "sexual thoughts about people are equal to adultery." Mt 5:27-28. If this absurdity and the other purity culture nonsense was not in the bible and not taught in church then maybe the victims would be alive today.

 

Christian morality fail. 

 

This "Christian" has also broken another commandment! Really poor example, just because someone says they are a Christian does not mean they are.. That's really niave to assume so.. Purity culture can be really damaging and is just another form of brainwash. Not all professing Christians are Christians.. Like the majority of the catholic Church... There a huge masonic influence in mainstream churches, wolves in sheep's clothing. 

[midniterider]

5 hours ago, Georgia said:

 

I suppose we have to define morality, the ten commandments are the law but jesus then comes and further defines whats expected. So we go from not committing adultery to not even thinking/lusting of a woman. Pro social behaviour to help grow civilisation and humankind doesn't necessarily indicate the morality I am speaking of.. Surely this points to like an altruistic theory? You'd help your neighbour because of what you want in return-peace and privacy. 

 

If everyone just built there objective reality which could be seen wouldn't there be even more chaos? Not everyone lives as we do inthe West.. Some countries believe in child marriage, cannabalism and having multiple wives. This is subjectively OK for them but not for us inthe West so where is the boundary line and can u call out others on their subjective stances if there's no absolute truth 

 

 

 

I bet there was major chaos as God flooded the earth because he was mad at the behavior of his creations. Child marriage and cannibalism doesnt work too well for us in the West so we made it illegal. Is child marriage and cannibalism a sin somewhere in the bible? Not too many secular people have multiple wives. That's a Mormon thing.

 

There is no absolute truth because God has a history of doing what he tell us not to do. 

 

The boundary line is what harms others is wrong. And there is always gray area. A Christian told me that the bible has a provision for war, even though it also says you shall not murder. Humans have provisions for war as well...So God's law has exceptions and so do ours. 

[Georgia]

6 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

My atheist parents taught me what was right and wrong based on not harming people. Just like you were (probably) taught by your parents. Christians and non-Christians are taught compassion, love and caring for one another. We are also taught that harming others is wrong. In fact society has created many laws that dictate consequences for harmful behavior. 

 

How is God's morality superior to non-religious morality? How do Christians live more moral lives under God's morality than the average non-believer under human morality?

 

It seems to me that if God decides he can do any damn thing he wants, but us doing the same thing is wrong....then God's morality is subjective (based on or influenced by [God's] personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.)

 

 

And who taught your atheist parents? In your theory of evolution (presume you agree with this) how and where did these morals develop? 

 

who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )
Romans 2:15

 

The law is already written on our hearts. 

[midniterider]

8 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

This "Christian" has also broken another commandment! Really poor example, just because someone says they are a Christian does not mean they are.. That's really niave to assume so.. Purity culture can be really damaging and is just another form of brainwash. Not all professing Christians are Christians.. Like the majority of the catholic Church... There a huge masonic influence in mainstream churches, wolves in sheep's clothing. 

 

Do Jesus loving , bible carrying, church going Christians break the law? 

 

edit: Have YOU ever broken the law?

[midniterider]

Which churches are the good Christian churches? 

 

I think it's naive to assume that a 'real' Christian never commits a felony.

[Georgia]

Just now, midniterider said:

 

Do Jesus loving , bible carrying, church going Christians break the law? 

 

 

Everyone breaks Gods moral law, but you highlighted a sex addicted person who murdered someone and then blamed Christians and purity culture. Not a great example. 

 

Why pick the worst example? It's like when people highlight catholic priests being child abusers.. Its like, no brainer this person is not a Christian... Is that not just extremely obvious 

[midniterider]

5 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

And who taught your atheist parents? In your theory of evolution (presume you agree with this) how and where did these morals develop? 

 

who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )
Romans 2:15

 

The law is already written on our hearts. 

 

Their atheist parents and their atheist parents, and so on , and so on , ad infinitum, I reckon. Morals have developed over time. It's not complicated to see that if someone kills someone else, then those family members will be distraught and sad. Compassion says that everyone deserves a chance to be happy. 

 

But if the law (which good people tend to break now and then because we are imperfect) is already written in my heart by Jesus, I dont suppose there is really any need to worship or pray to Jesus, right? 

[Georgia]

3 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Which churches are the good Christian churches? 

 

I think it's naive to assume that a 'real' Christian never commits a felony.

 

There would be no need for Jesus if we didn't break the law. But as Christians we have a standard of morality that doesn't chnage.. 

 

God set his law, people did not follow it so he made provisions for when people don't follow hence the rules around slavery and second wives. 

 

And no, I don't believe a true born again Christian would commit a crime like murder, rape, child abuse, domestic violence etc. 

 

Each church will have a mix of true Christians and those who aren't. But I must say it is getting harder to find purely genuine churches

 

 

[Georgia]

3 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Their atheist parents and their atheist parents, and so on , and so on , ad infinitum, I reckon. Morals have developed over time. It's not complicated to see that if someone kills someone else, then those family members will be distraught and sad. Compassion says that everyone deserves a chance to be happy. 

 

But if the law (which good people tend to break now and then because we are imperfect) is already written in my heart by Jesus, I dont suppose there is really any need to worship or pray to Jesus, right? 

 

How have they developed over time? Did the first group of humans have a sense of morality or was it like a trial and error thing? Evolution is brutal, selfless love doesn't always benefit the person giving it out so why adopt such a thing? Is it like the altruism theory? 

 

Yes we are completely imperfect, the moral law is written in our hearts but our hearts are fickle and we have free will to choose otherwise. We must pray to jesus to help us direct our fickle hearts and ensure we are following the law as best we can

[midniterider]

9 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

Everyone breaks Gods moral law, but you highlighted a sex addicted person who murdered someone and then blamed Christians and purity culture. Not a great example. 

 

Why pick the worst example? It's like when people highlight catholic priests being child abusers.. Its like, no brainer this person is not a Christian... Is that not just extremely obvious 

 

I'm not sure why this is a bad example. And why are we saying this guy was not a Christian? Sure sounds like his mind was wrapped up in the bible and didnt want to displease Jesus. 

 

I think it's possible to be insane and also be a Christian. Going further, I would say that Christianity is a type of mental illness itself. I got out of it and am well now.

[alreadyGone]

35 minutes ago, Georgia said:

...

They believe this to be right in their subjective morality so how can someone else with subjective morality say this behavior is wrong? It's all subjective?? 

 

I don't subscribe to subjective morality.

The very phrase "subjective morality" is an oxymoron.

It makes no rational sense.

 

You presume the false dichotomy that any moral basis not of the Christian god (or any supposed supreme supernatural being), is then by definition, subjective.

I don't agree.

 

 

 

[Georgia]

6 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I'm not sure why this is a bad example. And why are we saying this guy was not a Christian? Sure sounds like his mind was wrapped up in the bible and didnt want to displease Jesus. 

 

I think it's possible to be insane and also be a Christian. Going further, I would say that Christianity is a type of mental illness itself. I got out of it and am well now.

 

 

On a serious note, can I ask what made you leave? 

[midniterider]

7 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

How have they developed over time? Did the first group of humans have a sense of morality or was it like a trial and error thing? Evolution is brutal, selfless love doesn't always benefit the person giving it out so why adopt such a thing? Is it like the altruism theory? 

 

Yes we are completely imperfect, the moral law is written in our hearts but our hearts are fickle and we have free will to choose otherwise. We must pray to jesus to help us direct our fickle hearts and ensure we are following the law as best we can

 

I assume it was trial and error. Over millions of years we kind of learned that some behaviors weren't helpful so we taught our offspring what we learned from previous generations. 

 

I dont believe the moral law was written into my heart because my parent kept telling me not to do stuff for about 18 years. I guess Christians are probably turned loose on the world as soon as they can walk because the law is written in their hearts. 

 

Was the law written in Jeffrey Dahmer's heart? Charles Manson's? Adolf Hitler? Maybe God uses invisible ink in some cases? If God's morality is so fantastic then why would there be any of these extreme no-brainer cases for me to keep mentioning? I dont think God's morality is working is it?

 

 

[Georgia]

3 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

I assume it was trial and error. Over millions of years we kind of learned that some behaviors weren't helpful so we taught our offspring what we learned from previous generations. 

 

I dont believe the moral law was written into my heart because my parent kept telling me not to do stuff for about 18 years. I guess Christians are probably turned loose on the world as soon as they can walk because the law is written in their hearts. 

 

Was the law written in Jeffrey Dahmer's heart? Charles Manson's? Adolf Hitler? Maybe God uses invisible ink in some cases? If God's morality is so fantastic then why would there be any of these extreme no-brainer cases for me to keep mentioning? I dont think God's morality is working is it?

 

 

 

 

As I said, we all have free will but innately know what's wrong and right. The law is written on everyone's hearts but you choose to follow it or not. 

[alreadyGone]

In my experience (devout believer for 58 years, non-believer for several years after ), most humans, to include most Christians, hold a morality which is modular and conditional.

 

I don't need to consider the extreme examples of Christians who famously committed some public egregiously-immoral act. It doesn't require the extreme edge-case to become visible to me to be aware of and acknowlege this aspect of human behavior.

 

 

 

[midniterider]

8 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

On a serious note, can I ask what made you leave? 

 

I got tired of apologizing for thought crimes which harmed nobody. My analysis is that Christianity is a religion based on guilt, shame and fear. Even my ex-wife, born and raised Christian mentioned it being a guilt-based religion. Then I come to this website and discover bible inconsistencies, logic inconsistencies and that there is no reason to assume any of it is real. 

[alreadyGone]

Just now, Georgia said:

 

 

As I said, we all have free will but innately know what's wrong and right. The law is written on everyone's hearts but you choose to follow it or not. 

 

As I've expressed it here in past threads...

Tell me that there is a God who loves and cares for us, who is sovereign in actual fact...

And then go on about "free will"..

 

And I will compare that to releasing a mouse into a cage containing a couple of snakes.

As you toss that mouse into the cage and latch the door behind him, try telling that mouse that he has "free will".

 

This is the conditional logic on which Christian faith is based..

God is sovereign, all-knowing, all-seeing, and He is in control of everything...

except humans and their actions.

 

Words have meanings. We all know that "sovereign" means "absolute power and control".

In the English language, this is the only meaning of the word.

So choose.... One is true, or the other.  You cannot have both.

 

[alreadyGone]

41 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

...

Each church will have a mix of true Christians and those who aren't.

 

Please define "true Christian".

 

 

[Georgia]

Just now, alreadyGone said:

 

As I've expressed it here in past threads...

Tell me that there is a God who loves and cares for us, who is sovereign in actual fact...

And then go on about "free will"..

 

And I will compare that to releasing a mouse into a cage containing a couple of snakes.

As you toss that mouse into the cage and latch the door behind him, try telling that mouse that he has "free will".

 

This is the conditional logic on which Christian faith is based..

God is sovereign, all-knowing, all-seeing, and He is in control of everything...

except humans and their actions.

 

Words have meanings. We all know that "sovereign" means "absolute power and control".

In the English language, this is the only meaning of the word.

So choose.... One is true, or the other.  You cannot have both.

 

 

But if there's no choice then there's no genuine love. Giving us free will doesn't mean he doesn't have control, free will gives rise to love based on choice. If we didn't have a choice then we'd be robotic wouldnt we? 

[midniterider]

5 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

 

As I said, we all have free will but innately know what's wrong and right. The law is written on everyone's hearts but you choose to follow it or not. 

 

 

If God's law is written in our hearts....

And God gave us free will to ignore it and do whatever we want...

 

Question: Then isnt it a waste of time to write the law in our hearts?