When morality is subjective and there's no absolute, where is the boundary line and how do you decide on what's wrong or right?

[midniterider]

2 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

But if there's no choice then there's no genuine love. Giving us free will doesn't mean he doesn't have control, free will gives rise to love based on choice. If we didn't have a choice then we'd be robotic wouldnt we? 

 

What are our choices? Believe in Jesus and go to heaven? Or not believe in Jesus and .....

[alreadyGone]

4 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

But if there's no choice then there's no genuine love. Giving us free will doesn't mean he doesn't have control, free will gives rise to love based on choice. If we didn't have a choice then we'd be robotic wouldnt we? 

 

With apologies, you should consider re-writing this.

It makes precisely no sense at all.

"genuine love" means... what?

 

"free will gives rise to love based on choice."

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[WalterP]

Hello Georgia. 

 

I've just created a new thread in the Den for your attention.

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/85209-care-to-comment-georgia/

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Georgia]

22 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

 

If God's law is written in our hearts....

And God gave us free will to ignore it and do whatever we want...

 

Question: Then isnt it a waste of time to write the law in our hearts? 

 

 

Genesis explains we were made in image of him, as part of his creation we have an understanding of what's right and wrong but you still have the option to chose between the two. 

[alreadyGone]

Genesis...

The story supposedly written by a man who supposedly lived several thousand years ago...

Which he could know only if God appeared to him and told him the entire event.

 

Georgia, others here will recognize this as something on which I'm recently very focused:

No one was there in this magical place called the Garden of Eden to record these purported events around Adam and Eve and their fall from grace.

No written language existed when the first humans walked the earth, and there was no one there according to the account in Genesis to record it all. No one.

 

You may choose to believe this... I did, for most of my life, without question.

I no longer do.

 

 

 

 

 

[WalterP]

13 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

Genesis explains we were made in image of him, as part of his creation we have an understanding of what's right and wrong but you still have the option to chose between the two. 

 

Georgia,

 

If you read Genesis properly you will see that god made Adam and Eve without an understanding of right and wrong.

 

They only acquired the ability to tell right from wrong when they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree.

 

Therefore, they could not choose between the two.

 

Yet, god punished them as if they could have chosen.

 

Since god knows right from wrong, was it right of him to punish them as if they did know right from wrong?

 

 

[pantheory]

12 hours ago, Georgia said:

Hey Guys, 

 

Interested to hear your thoughts on subjective morality, how do non believers decide what's right and wrong if you don't believe in an absolute? If morality is subjective how do we punish people for doing wrong? Doesn't that just become a battle of moral opinion? 

 

Hope the question makes sense 

 

Thanks 

 

Hi Georgia,

 

Good question. I'm sure there will be a number of different answers concerning this question, even amongst us atheists. So I will answer your question based upon my own perspective and opinion.

 

From my perspective as an absolute atheist, yes, morality is subjective. Nearly all of us here grew up with a Christian morality and, as for me, my subjective morality  is similar to my Christian morality but I'm more committed to it now than when I was a Christian. My primary morality is based on the negative golden rule which says, don't do unto others, as you would not want them to do unto you. Be a good Samaritan and help others as much as time and reason permits.

 

There are a few exceptions. As a Christian I was not necessarily against fornication as a single man, but as an atheist divorced-man I now think fornication is absolutely great  

[midniterider]

24 minutes ago, Georgia said:

 

Genesis explains we were made in image of him, as part of his creation we have an understanding of what's right and wrong but you still have the option to chose between the two. 

 

Well, I tend to think the Bible is rather illogical.

 

And I dont believe it anyway.

[WalterP]

1 hour ago, Georgia said:

 

But if there's no choice then there's no genuine love. Giving us free will doesn't mean he doesn't have control, free will gives rise to love based on choice. If we didn't have a choice then we'd be robotic wouldnt we? 

 

That's correct Georgia.

 

God made Adam and Eve without the ability to make a proper, free-willed choice.

 

That kind of choice requires knowledge and understanding of what you are choosing between and also a knowledge and understanding of what the consequences are when making your choice.

 

Adam and Eve had none of these things.

 

So, they could have just obeyed his commands like robots.

 

But is that really what god wanted?

 

If not, why did he withhold the knowledge of good and evil and death from them, so that they couldn't make a properly informed free-willed choice?

[midniterider]

I forgot Georgia is a flat earther too. Wonder if I should make a flat earth thread.

[alreadyGone]

@Georgia,

 

You speak of objective standards as compared to subjective..

And then cite "genuine love" as an absolute, as basis of your gospel-centered belief system.

 

In the entire English lexicon, is there anything quite so subjective as "love" ?

 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

I forgot Georgia is a flat earther too. Wonder if I should make a flat earth thread.

 

Are you serious?  @Georgia are you a flat earther?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, Georgia said:

 

The bible doesn't encourage these behaviours though, so if a Christian is doing these things it would be seen as transgression of the law, not a subjective morality. 

 

What I am trying to get at is how can you punish others from doing "wrong" when morality is seen as subjective... 

 

There were a group of people who tried to get the age of consent lowered to about 7, so adults could have sex with children. They were tax paying, working individuals living inthe West. They believe this to be right in their subjective morality so how can someone else with subjective morality say this behavior is wrong? It's all subjective?? 

As I said before, the basis of a sound morality should be empathy tempered with reason.  In employing this approach, I think about how I might feel if someone treated me in a certain manner.  This means giving total objectivity, with complete honesty, to my actions before committing them.  And because I objectively know how I would have them do unto me, it makes it much easier to make proper and correct decisions when doing unto them.  It also paves the way for me to set healthy boundaries, which keep others from doing unto me as I would not have done.

 

This concept, and, indeed, the empathy at the heart of it, is much more difficult when one subscribes to belief in a book that teaches that certain people are an abomination unto the lord, or that slaves should be obedient to their masters, women submissive to their husbands and all manner of other highly immoral teachings.  Denying that the book encourages such doesn't make it so; it simply speaks to willful delusion on the part of the believer.  The fact, plain as rain, is that it is in the book for all to see, read, and interpret as they will without any objective standard by which to compare.  For you, that seems to mean that most christians are not really christians; but that line of reasoning is much like returning from a holiday in Edinburgh and proclaiming that there are No True Scotsman there.

[midniterider]

39 minutes ago, Krowb said:

 

Are you serious?  @Georgia are you a flat earther?

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/82423-my-pastor-denied-my-gender/page/5/

 

Page 2...think it was July28 post

 

edit: Jul 28

[◊ Krowb ◊]

4 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/82423-my-pastor-denied-my-gender/page/5/

 

Page 2...think it was Jun 28 post

Color me floored. To think I've actually run into a living, breathing proponent of it.  @TheRedneckProfessor just what kind of establishment are we running here?  I jest of course, please don't turn me into a pile of salt or anything O' Great Mod - may the forums sing your praises forever.

[midniterider]

These Catholics I worked with swore their religion was real Christianity.

Georgia seems to feel her version , whatever it is, is the real Christianity, but not those damn Catholics.

The Pentecostals said their version was the real Christianity and used the 'gifts of the spirit' and didnt like the Catholics much.

Visiting Baptists believe the gifts of the spirit have expired so disagree with the Pentecostals. 

A Church of Christ I tried out once thought musical instruments was not scriptural , so of course they would not have liked the Pentecostals and their damn rock n roll music nor the beautiful pipe organ music in our local Episcopal church.

Of course the Episcopalians 'arent' Catholics but give a nod to the RCC. I went there once and we recited something about "recognizing the Catholic church."

Then there is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who claim to be Christians but have the Book of Mormon.

Jehovah's Witnesses say they are Christians also (per pewresearch.org) but they seem to be nut jobs.  

 

All these people say they are Christians and believe different stuff. What's going on? Who are the TRUE Christians?

 

Georgia might give me a rundown of her beliefs but why should I believe her? Edgar will drop in with some contradictory nonsense when she gets tired of playing. Then Thumb will drop in with her secret contradictory SDA baloney when Ed gets fed up.

 

For IPU's sake, what should I believe?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

11 hours ago, Krowb said:

Color me floored. To think I've actually run into a living, breathing proponent of it.  @TheRedneckProfessor just what kind of establishment are we running here?  I jest of course, please don't turn me into a pile of salt or anything O' Great Mod - may the forums sing your praises forever.

We welcome all types here, even those with linear earths and circular reasoning.  

[LogicalFallacy]

21 hours ago, Georgia said:

Hey Guys, 

 

Interested to hear your thoughts on subjective morality, how do non believers decide what's right and wrong if you don't believe in an absolute? If morality is subjective how do we punish people for doing wrong? Doesn't that just become a battle of moral opinion? 

 

Hope the question makes sense 

 

Thanks 

 

Is slavery moral or immoral?

[florduh]

11 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Is slavery moral or immoral?

That might be the hardest one for them to dance around, but dance they will!

 

Perhaps it was moral back in those good old days but it's immoral today. 

 

For Bible believing Christians, morality is literally the MOST SUBJECTIVE topic, yet they think of us as lacking a basis for a moral code. If your moral code must come from the Bible then you must decide which parts of it you shall ignore. Interesting, no?

[WalterP]

13 minutes ago, florduh said:

That might be the hardest one for them to dance around, but dance they will!

 

Perhaps it was moral back in those good old days but it's immoral today. 

 

For Bible believing Christians, morality is literally the MOST SUBJECTIVE topic, yet they think of us as lacking a basis for a moral code. If your moral code must come from the Bible then you must decide which parts of it you shall ignore. Interesting, no?

 

But it's ALL gods inerrant, perfect and infallible word.

 

Eh, Florduh?

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

21 hours ago, Krowb said:

Color me floored. To think I've actually run into a living, breathing proponent of it.  @TheRedneckProfessor just what kind of establishment are we running here?  I jest of course, please don't turn me into a pile of salt or anything O' Great Mod - may the forums sing your praises forever.

 

 

With some respect to the Hindu among us, holy cow!

 

Gravity... is a figment of our collective imagination, on a flat earth???

 

Personally, I've always believed that gravity was like..  "a law". (yeah, I know... )

One thing I do know for certain....  gravity never gives up.

I for one, count on it.

 

I wonder what @Georgia thinks of electricity.

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

On 4/3/2021 at 9:31 AM, Georgia said:

Hey Guys, 

 

Interested to hear your thoughts on subjective morality, how do non believers decide what's right and wrong if you don't believe in an absolute? If morality is subjective how do we punish people for doing wrong? Doesn't that just become a battle of moral opinion? 

 

Hope the question makes sense 

 

Thanks 

 

All morality is societal and specific to the time and place. Biblical morality such as Mosaic law reflects the societal beliefs of the time and place. Which obviously become outdated over time. And change as societies change. There's never been any absolute morality that would be associated with an absolute god. 

 

So the entire question is nonsensical. 

 

Through the entire course of human history any deciding of what's right or wrong has been limited to the time and place and specific to human opinion within a given society. It's always been a case of moral opinion. A good example is the biblical opinion that slavery is perfectly moral and acceptable in gods eyes. That's a moral opinion of the time and place.

 

Fast forward several centuries and people started changing their minds. Slavery began to be questioned as morally correct. Laws were changed. All of this despite the dictates of the bible that never condemned slavery or hinted that prior to the end times it be abolished. There's no absolute god sanctioned moral standard that slaves should be allowed and obey their masters forever through the course of human history. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Has Georgia disappeared again?

[midniterider]

14 hours ago, Weezer said:

Has Georgia disappeared again?

 

May have fallen off the edge 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm glad Georgia's on y'all's minds.