Josh "The Panther" Versus Edgarcito "The End3" : A Grudge Match, No Holds Barred

[Edgarcito]

Let's also back up please for a minute.  Given some of the perceptions of our effort, I would like to satisfy the observations as well as I can....and consider them, given the source(s).  So the question is please:

 

What yield, what human product, what quality, is it you think humans have through spirituality.  For example, should I have emotional expectations?  Should I have physical expectations?  Should I have,...any?  And perhaps this is a very important question...  what is it, your interpretation, or I gather that's what you have been trying to share with me, AN interpretation, or many, of what it means as a human to possess "spiritual" through knowledge.   Knowledge in itself seems rather dry, meaningless.  Truthfully, I would like to hear it in your words, given you are unique.

 

What I was attempting to convey before, was I was speculating your Oneness should would have no qualities similar to mine, as a Christian, perceive.....a connection to God, joy, temporary euphoria, goose bumps, etc., that a constant feeling as One is impossible, is fleeting at best, in the human condition...  

 

Maybe that's what you are able to demonstrate.

[WalterP]

I have been asked by JoshPantera to contribute once more in this debate.

 

Here is scientific evidence from quantum mechanics that strongly suggests that every part of the universe is interconnected with every other.  This would mean that Josh's claim for the interconnectedness of everything is supported by our current understanding of quantum mechanics.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

 

When scientists perform this experiment and send a series of single photons through one slit an interference pattern is created on the receiving screen.  But, if each photon is going only through one slit, what are they interfering with?  There are no other photons present for them to interact with.  Richard Feynman found a way of explaining how a single particle like a photon can be 'spread out' so that it can pass through both slits and interfere with itself.  This technique is known as the Path Integral.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation#The_path_integral_in_quantum-mechanical_interpretation

 

The path integral formulation is a description in quantum mechanics that generalizes the action principle of classical mechanics. It replaces the classical notion of a single, unique classical trajectory for a system with a sum, or functional integral, over an infinity of quantum-mechanically possible trajectories to compute a quantum amplitude.

 

In plain English this is saying that instead of following a single trajectory through just one slit the photon's probability wave is spread out over an infinity of possible trajectories.  Which means that the probability wave of the photon's trajectory passes through every region in the entire universe.  Thus, every region in the entire universe is linked to every other other via this single photon's probability wave.  And since the universe is filled with particles like this photon, we seem to live in an ocean of overlapping probability waves which connect every region of the universe with every other.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation#/media/File:Feynman_paths.png

 

These are five of the infinitely many paths available for a particle to move from point A at time t to point B at time t’(>t). Paths which self-intersect or go backwards in time are not allowed.

Functionals of fields

However, the path integral formulation is also extremely important in direct application to quantum field theory, in which the "paths" or histories being considered are not the motions of a single particle, but the possible time evolutions of a field over all space. The action is referred to technically as a functional of the field: S[ϕ], where the field ϕ(x^μ) is itself a function of space and time, and the square brackets are a reminder that the action depends on all the field's values everywhere, not just some particular value. One such given function ϕ(x^μ) of spacetime is called a field configuration. In principle, one integrates Feynman's amplitude over the class of all possible field configurations.

 

Localization

The path integrals are usually thought of as being the sum of all paths through an infinite space–time. However, in local quantum field theory we would restrict everything to lie within a finite causally complete region, for example inside a double light-cone. This gives a more mathematically precise and physically rigorous definition of quantum field theory.

 

That's because the double light cone refers to the volume of space-time occupied by our observable universe and not by an infinitely-large universe.  Which means that the path integral of a single photon is mapped out over every possible path within the observable universe.  Thus, every part of the observable universe is linked to every other by the probability wave of that single photon.

 

Therefore, Josh's claim for the interconnectedness of everything is supported on a theoretical level by the Path Integral technique. It is also supported on the empirical level because predictions made using the Path Integral have closely matched what has been observed and measured in many experiments.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter. 

[Edgarcito]

Lol, well good deal... we might be in an ocean of quantum amplitude.  I still want to know what bang for my buck do I get for my sunburn.  Does a fat gal have more spiritual than thin?  Obviously, she has places that overlap!!!  I’ll be here all week!

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I've already read Walter's influence in your posts.  This to me is very unimpressive because it suggests you need help.  That's not a good look for you.  Secondly, I DO understand everything you have mentioned but you have failed to move the ball forward on the field despite me prodding you to do so.  

 

You know what makes it obvious that you don't understand anything I've said? Your next paragraph details the fact that you're not understanding any of it: 

 

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Do you not understand that upon discovery of something small, there exists an infinite amount of small that we will never discover.  Do you not understand that upon discovery of something large, there exists an infinite amount of large that we will never discover?  You would like me to see your relationship with the void, but you will not accept the Bible talking about God, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end, yet won't make the jump to infinitely small and infinitely large? 

 

How would I NOT understand infinite regression? How is it possible to ask such a question when I specifically outline the mystical realization and detailed what goes into it. Recognizing the god as within you, MEANS recognizing the infinite and eternal aspects of your own being and existence!!!!!!!

 

How would I not make the jump to infinitely micro and macrocosm's? How? The very thing I've been discussing goes off into things like an infinite and eternal realm of existence (meaning going on forever in every imaginable aspect of going on forever). That's what people are self identifying with - existence itself, the eternal, the infinite, and which is described also as the void which has no beginning or end, the alpha and omega is the same thing. 

 

The axial-theistic point here is that what people think of as a "god," isn't any different than existence itself the natural realm of beginning and endlessness. The belief that mythic language like the "alpha and omega," is symbolic language and can be further broken down and understood to be a reference to existence itself. Not literal gods. This is a way of putting forward "beliefs." I believe that mythology and religion are symbolic, metaphorical, and allegorical not to be taken literally or factually true. Atheism is about what I do not believe, Axial-Theism is about what I do believe about theism and religions. The positive belief side of my agnostic atheism. 

 

Things likely do get infinitely small and large, but so what? That favors my argument, not yours.

 

It doesn't favor the bible or christian theology. Not in a literal surface value sense. And trying to pull that out of Genesis doesn't work. You're off on a non-biblical and unchristian direction. 

 

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I suggest you/we discuss the void as you seemingly want to help me see the MECHANISM to the organization of me, and individual, and you, and our connectivity.  Please carry on.

 

The void which is no void. What looks like endless void to the eye, but actually isn't. Walter's input has been requested. Which is a summary what science has learned through the particle - wave duality experiment. Since that was a hot topic for apologetic's, I'd like to briefly cover the actual science and what it really shows. Surprise, it doesn't prove the existence of a mythical god. But it does tend to back up pantheistic mystical insights and philosophical discourse to some extent. Because of what it reveals, through the nature of space, about real, literal interconnectivity in the universe. 

[Joshpantera]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

What yield, what human product, what quality, is it you think humans have through spirituality.  For example, should I have emotional expectations?  Should I have physical expectations?  Should I have,...any?  And perhaps this is a very important question...  what is it, your interpretation, or I gather that's what you have been trying to share with me, AN interpretation, or many, of what it means as a human to possess "spiritual" through knowledge.   Knowledge in itself seems rather dry, meaningless.  Truthfully, I would like to hear it in your words, given you are unique.

 

Natives in the Amazon or central american rain forest's have a spirituality of interconnection to the earth. The trees, plants, and animals of the rain forest. It's an interconnection with nature and the natural world type of spirituality. They also have psycho active substance rituals for initiates, which, provoke wild trips into the mind where experiences of interconnection with nature and what they perceive as nature spirits takes place. 

 

This is the native peoples type of spirituality. Let's face it, it's most ancient. At first people were deifying the natural world, certain animals, mountains, volcanoes, etc., etc., It starts out as in interconnection with the earth, elements, and animals type of spirituality. The cosmic and pantheistic philosophical ideas seemed to have emerged later in time. But the idea of interconnection looks to be there from the outset of the most primitive look into human spirituality. 

 

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

What I was attempting to convey before, was I was speculating your Oneness should would have no qualities similar to mine, as a Christian, perceive.....a connection to God, joy, temporary euphoria, goose bumps, etc., that a constant feeling as One is impossible, is fleeting at best, in the human condition...  

 

Maybe that's what you are able to demonstrate.

 

It's an odd speculation, considering. I'm not aware of anyone claiming that they would go off on some life long feeling of oneness with all of existence. I know of men who have remained in meditation for long periods at a time. But that's about it. I told you, it's the same sort of thing that christians are doing when they claim to have influence from the holy spirit. That doesn't go on for some indefinite period of time either. Nor does anyone claim that it would as far as I know. But like you said, you were just speculating about it. 

 

4 hours ago, WalterP said:

This would mean that Josh's claim for the interconnectedness of everything is supported by our current understanding of quantum mechanics.

 

Bang!!!!

 

4 hours ago, WalterP said:

In plain English this is saying that instead of following a single trajectory through just one slit the photon's probability wave is spread out over an infinity of possible trajectories.  Which means that the probability wave of the photon's trajectory passes through every region in the entire universe.  Thus, every region in the entire universe is linked to every other other via this single photon's probability wave.  And since the universe is filled with particles like this photon, we seem to live in an ocean of overlapping probability waves which connect every region of the universe with every other.

 

Through what appears to be the void of space. "The void which is no void," as Joseph Campbell used to put it. Interconnection isn't just some fruity new age thing, it's rather more than that. And through time and discovery, seems to only become more and more apparent in the objective sense. The physical sense. Einstein was well onto this: 

 

“A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

The physical sense. Einstein was well onto this: 

 

“A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

 

 

 

Edstein:

 

"Thinking spiritual is a relationship, communing, knowing, realizing our existence, with respect to the whole, attempting to marry this to our condition as humans.  The problem is the "condition as human" aspect, each person possessing and Thinking spiritual is a relationship, communing, knowing, realizing our existence, with respect to the whole, attempting to marry this to our condition as humans.  The problem is the "condition as human" aspect, each person possessing and with unique conditions.  Christianity specifically provides a standard and mechanism to know the greater, "God", through the human condition, through Christ.  I won't deny that there are an infinite number of relationships to commune with creation, that people may find connectivity, meaning, etc., through those varied relationships......nature, music, possibly some artifact from their past with unique conditions. "

 

"Let’s get past this part... the evangelical nature of the church puts it typically in the forever fundamental stage.  We agree.  That does not make one superior... it does speak to maturity but not superiority."

 

Einstein and Edstein say its a function of maturity through human condition.  What better way to relate God to human condition that something fully God, fully man....

 

What now Josh...

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Einstein and Edstein say its a function of maturity through human condition.  What better way to relate God to human condition that something fully God, fully man....

 

What now Josh...

 

I want to know more about what you're preaching in the above quote. What better way to relate god to human condition than something fully god, fully man? 

 

I would say that I think Advaita Vedanta has done a rather fine job of it. The transcendent, or Brahman Consciousness has always been fully god, fully man, and fully everything else in existence too. 

 

A ) Christianity = fully god, fully man, no mention of the rest of existence.

 

B ) Advaita Vedanta = fully god, fully man, fully everything else in existence. 

 

The latter covers much more ground. Blankets the human condition in the process. And open's up to a broad understanding of the whole. 

 

You are not wrong in the quote if what you mean in the quote is that you recognize the mystical nature of the gospel of John as I've alluded earlier with the video. There seems to be something going on with the writer. The whole god and man issue. 

 

But what's going on is simply a way of trying to 'blend' enlightenment ideas with mystical judaized ideas of the time. It looks to me as though the writer wanted to pass off an enlightenment idea as though it were sanctioned by scripture when quoting Psalm 82: 

 

Is it not written in YOUR law, 'I have called you gods?' 

 

In YOUR law, as in the law of people other than the personal writing the gospel. Like you, it looks like the writer of John was consciously looking for ways of relating god to humanity in a way that might look as though it were not blasphemous by jewish standard. He has jesus speaking as though he were detached from the jewish culture. A jewish man speaking to the religious leaders would be addressing OUR law. People reflecting on their own culture. 

 

If this is the case, then what I'm looking at is a situation where something that is much clearer, open, and upfront in one religion, is being introduced into another religion muddy, not so clear, pussy footing along the way, and trying to be overly cautious in the presentation. Making it something of a dumbed down rendition of the original train of thought, realization, and belief. 

 

That doesn't make christianity a superior way of delivering the same message, it quite literally makes it inferior. Especially considering that it's been so muddied as to be seldom understood by many people over several centuries. I'd say that the older presentations which are not so cryptic and hidden, are a better way of getting straight to the point rather than tip toeing around the outside to try and reach for it the long way around the way in which the writer of John did. 

 

A ) Christianity = God > Jesus > humanity. Three steps to god, basically. A three step spirituality. 

 

B ) Advaita Vedanta = God/humanity. A single step spirituality. 

 

If I had a choice between 3 step abs, or a single step abs, I'd count the single step ab's as the superior delivery. 

 

 

Hahahahahaha!!!!!

 

 

[Edgarcito]

I'm glad you are excited Josh about finding an anecdotal relationship that points towards your spirituality.  Btw, it points to the Christian God as well.  Can pull multiple verses if you would like.  

 

Seriously, if your faith is in quantum amplitude to demonstrate God (in a confined volume?)... good deal.  I liked Moses's glowing face in the presence of a higher energy source.  celluostic water purification (the staff in the water), and have forgotten several I'm sure that held my attention for a time.  OH, the water phases, the triple point lol.....that was a good one, demonstrating the Trinity. 

 

I'll add yours to my list.

 

You have utterly failed otherwise.....thx for playing.

 

  

[Edgarcito]

I find it ironic that I am the one supporting historically non-believer arguments in this thread.....asking you Josh to demonstrate all the "knowledge" based arguments I have been subjected to over the last 14 years here.  I'm down to faith on my end.....which is the correct response both from a Christian standpoint and scientific standpoint.  I've asked you repeatedly to make a knowledge based link, between some yet unknown spiritual definition you've yet to disclose (other than people getting high in the jungle), to some guy's explanation of space.  You have NOT done that.  NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT done that.  Are we connected?   Yeah, looks like, but even an explanation from arguably the smarted man in the world, he couldn't even grasp the different organizations of stuff and discern the arrangement with respect to spirituality, our subjective positioning in the "stuff".  

 

Furthermore, how many times have I heard "the burden of proof is on the cat making the claim"  That would be YOU sir....your boastful arrogance in the other thread saying you could whip my Texas butt.  Again, you haven't even touched the hem of the tunic....

 

Are you telling me now, after all these years of profession, that crappy science is valid?

Are you telling me now that I don't understand both sides?

Are you telling me now that all those anecdotal evidences that I give witness to are valid?

 

Embarrassing for you I'm sure at this point.....to be whipped by a redneck from west Texas....

 

Here's your chance to show me a connection....a mechanism from the connectivity your tout to human physiology.  

 

By your standard at this point, I'm going to go smoke some weed and strip some wires from an extension cord, plug it in, and grab the stripped ends.....to become One with something greater....the power grid....

 

You can't make this stuff up....but you did....

[Edgarcito]

Lol, I've been called on the carpet for lack of evidence...me being a Christian.  And here we have a distinct lack of evidence many of you are scientists.  I guess Grace would be in order at this point......like the myth argues.  Amazing, you people are truly amazing.  I digress.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

to be whipped by a redneck from west Texas....

Point of Order:

 

Thou shalt not take the name of the Prof thy Mod in vain.

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Furthermore, how many times have I heard "the burden of proof is on the cat making the claim"  That would be YOU sir....your boastful arrogance in the other thread saying you could whip my Texas butt.  Again, you haven't even touched the hem of the tunic....

 

I'll try and make this more simple. 

 

I have more than provided evidence for pantheistic, all is interconnected, all is the universe, and all is existence itself the never ending realm spiritual views. That's what I'm arguing. I have brought analogies to the debate by focusing in on what is common to everything, interconnecting everything, which is space, but more to the point, the fabric and structure of existence itself. 

 

The spiritual aspect is in self identification with the totality. Traditionally referred to as the "mystical realization." 

 

I've shown where John seems to have tried bringing the mystical realization in baby steps in his gospel. I have cited Alan Watts lecture on "The Real Gospel." Watts being a former Catholic who went off into Zen Buddhism. And gained richer, or superior spiritual outlook than what was available to him as a christian confined to a much more narrow view of human spiritual thinking and experience. 

 

This is what kicks your ass, Ed. 

 

1) Christianity has claimed superiority. 

2) I have claimed that christianity is not superior, but rather inferior. 

3) I have demonstrated where, why, and how. With an evidence based approach. 

 

You haven't magically gotten out of the head lock I have you in currently. Feel that? I just tightened my grip.

[Joshpantera]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Embarrassing for you I'm sure at this point.....to be whipped by a redneck from west Texas....

 

Here's your chance to show me a connection....a mechanism from the connectivity your tout to human physiology.  

 

I am the sea (hydrogen)! 

 

I am the land (carbon)! 

 

I am the space (quantum wave medium)!

 

I am all that ever was, is, or shall ever be!!

 

No mortal man has unveiled the depths of my mystery!!!

 

I am yesterday, today, and tomorrow!!!!

 

I have the power to born a second time!!!!!

 

I am the source and creator of all the gods!!!!!!

 

I am self realized humanity!!!!!!!

[Edgarcito]

Josh, what defines spiritual energy in the body vs conventional... i.e. what is spiritual energy in the body.. or are you just saying we can measure energy in space and energy in the body and a connection exists.  

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Josh, what defines spiritual energy in the body vs conventional... i.e. what is spiritual energy in the body.. or are you just saying we can measure energy in space and energy in the body and a connection exists.  

 

I'm only looking at how the universe exists as an interconnected realm. Not that some special energy exists, there's just the natural energies doing what they do. But just the basic facts are really amazing considering.

 

To get introspective to the point of visualizing how our physiology breaks down in real factual, and objective terms. To atom and subatomic levels. And beyond that, as you rightfully point out.

 

Where does it end? Where can it end? 

 

If we go with that and imagine that there is no last divisible property of matter, what does that mean to human beings?

 

Doesn't that place each and every person as manifestation of the infinite? The finite being more of a short sided perception than a hard fact? 

 

Here's what Advaita Vedantan mystics think of it strictly on intuitive and subjective oriented self realization through meditation and spiritual enlightenment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta

 

According to Advaita Vedānta, liberation can be achieved while living, and is called Jivanmukti.^[74] The Atman-knowledge, that is the knowledge of true Self and its relationship to Brahman is central to this liberation in Advaita thought.^{[note 10]} Atman-knowledge, to Advaitins, is that state of full awareness, liberation and freedom which overcomes dualities at all levels, realizing the divine within oneself, the divine in others and all beings, the non-dual Oneness, that Brahman is in everything, and everything is Brahman.^[76][77][78]

According to Rambachan, in Advaita, this state of liberating self-knowledge includes and leads to the understanding that "the self is the self of all, the knower of self sees the self in all beings and all beings in the self."^[

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There's a bit of a match going on here between subjective intuitions and objective scientific evidences on the nature of space and the fabric and structure of existence itself, more importantly. 

[Edgarcito]

Kind of interesting conversation actually....talked with my sister who just retired from the space physics lab at the U of Colorado.  She seemed to think a vacuum state was higher energy than a condensed particle state, but also said the conversation was over her head.  Still kind of interesting...

 

Maybe that's why they are off a few feet from here to Mars....not accounting for gluon drag...lol.

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Kind of interesting conversation actually....talked with my sister who just retired from the space physics lab at the U of Colorado.  She seemed to think a vacuum state was higher energy than a condensed particle state, but also said the conversation was over her head.  Still kind of interesting...

 

Maybe that's why they are off a few feet from here to Mars....not accounting for gluon drag...lol.

 

There's a pbs show series on cosmology that I've posted in the science section. I just watched an episode on how empty space isn't empty. Which goes into a lot of the details. 

 

 

So where he's talking about an empty jar always containing something, we can apply that back to the discussion about more volume of space than particle matter in every atom. This is what Alan Watts got into during his "Out of Your Mind" lecture that was heavily eastern influenced. He led into an introspection based on the question of what we really are that eventually came down to concluding, 'what you are, basically, is the fabric and structure of existence itself.' 

 

As I've crossed referenced spiritual insights of intuition and meditative experience like that, I realized how very close they are to objective reality. We don't know exactly what the full scope of the fabric of reality is, but what is evident is that we're made up of it, whatever it turns out to be.

 

The Professor said that he'd like us to focus more on building up our respective spiritual views rather than spending any more time tearing down opposing views. Now seems like a good time to make the shift. We had to address the previous content before getting to this point anyways. But now here we are. 

 

I have gone through these enlightened experiences of self identification as the whole. And then proceeded forward beyond the initial awakening. Considering the variety of ways that it can be taken.

 

And the truth is that there's no fixed way that anyone has to act or behave in it's wake. Once you get it, you don't become a magical being or melt away into the whole. It's just an advancement of self awareness. Here we are, alive, a collection of various universal energies engaged in the act of conscious experience.

 

It's another depth of self awareness. We are this, we are that, we are finally an interconnected aspect of what is essentially ultimate and absolute. 

 

There isn't a whole lot to be depressed about. Or to get too overly hung up on. What these insights did for my own human condition is that it had the effect of pulling me up by my boot straps where youthful feeling sorry for myself about this or that was concerned. I had depressive issues as a christian youth. I wasn't clear of it until I broke into the mystical realization content. 

 

Since then I've faced challenges. Like divorce, deaths, up and down financial situations - the sorrows of the world, basically. And have been challenged with hard times like everyone else. But I've not been too attached to the negatives. I let them roll off and continue on looking forward towards positives. I'm remarried. I have a new family. I make more money now. Things are up and up. Mostly due to the projection outward of my new inner attitude. 

 

The reason I had depressive issues before, in my opinion, can be broken down to the idea of a god way out there who we are always struggling towards, but failing, and hoping to be judged favorably by, just comes off as depressive. Especially the whole burning you forever if you're judged unfavorably parts. I always felt like there was a dark cloud, from a mental stand point, surrounding christianity. It's very down trodden in that way. So when I broke into the enlightenment content I saw a much more up beat perception taking form. 

 

There's no struggle towards a god way out there somewhere, or any church that you have to filter through to get to the god who is way out there somewhere. The gods are symbolic of ultimate reality, and ultimate reality has always been within us and all around us the entire time. That strikes me as so much more upbeat and uplifting.

 

And as a result, I began to change. I took off evolving, growing, and expanding into various directions. It was uplifting to leave behind the narrow confines that I had been put in as a child. Even after going atheist, I was still in the narrow confines considering. Which were left over from my christian upbringing. 

 

Self realization is what it took to change my perceptions about my own personal human condition. 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

I very much appreciate the last post Josh.  Thank you.  I'll see if I might sum up a description of my spirituality shortly.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Maybe a mental agreement, a comfort, a knowing, and faith that what is being experienced is in tune/harmony with respect to others and nature possibly.  

 

For me, it comes in many forms.....places, settings, types and times of communion, prayer, intercession by the Holy Spirit to a relationship I hadn't seen.

 

Could be a prompting to do something that you might not want or have time to do.....but knowing the thing to do is needing to be done.

 

And I believe I'm describing something different that those same feelings derived from a knowledge based knowing.  I expect for some, a knowledge revelation could induce a spiritual feeling.  Hard to ignore that possibility.

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Uncertain what you would like to do at this point Prof.  I'm satisfied this is something we are not likely to marry....our differing explanations.  Thanks to my counsel, S., for the intervention.  Very timely sir.  Did not need to confer with MWC, although he is head and shoulders above many in comprehension.  And thanks to my debate opponent for the effort, and certainly the Mods and Dave.

 

And to our sponsors in part.....Serta Perfect Sleeper.....good DAY. (Paul Harvey voice).

[Joshpantera]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

And I believe I'm describing something different that those same feelings derived from a knowledge based knowing.  I expect for some, a knowledge revelation could induce a spiritual feeling.  Hard to ignore that possibility.

 

I would say that a spirituality that is bible focused would be a knowledge based spirituality. Having to do with a working knowledge of scripture, claims from within scripture, and so on. Even to the extent where calling a feeling derived from the holy spirit rests entirely on reading the bible, which, again, is a knowledge based venture. Taking in the knowledge then gives someone a frame of reference to try and interpret a subjective experience is a certain way. 

 

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

For me, it comes in many forms.....places, settings, types and times of communion, prayer, intercession by the Holy Spirit to a relationship I hadn't seen.

 

If someone didn't have any knowledge of the biblical stories and their bases for communion, prayer, and intercession by the holy spirit, no one would have any frame of reference to call the subjective experiences by those names. 

 

People have wanted us to arrive at an agreed definition of spirituality. I put forward a universal definition that blankets everyone. Do you reject it? Agree with it? 

 

If you reject it, why? 

 

And what do you propose as a definition? 

 

I think we should at least attempt to get through this as many people in the gallery have commented on it. 

[Edgarcito]

I need to clarify again please.  I was under the impression that you as an ex-Christian were somehow going to define spirituality from a knowledge standpoint and then use that to define how a believer is inferior because somehow they are using an alternative spiritual definition with no underpinning, no certainty.  Was then prodded to continue for whatever reasons.....so I did.  I even think I gave you a pretty good version of my woo symptoms.  

 

But let me offer this up just as part of the definition:  It's a knowing, a feeling, a physical reaction to the Truth maybe a revelation, an action to be accomplished, that is confirmed through the knowing/ feeling/ physical reaction.

 

In other words, a connection to Morality/Truth confirmed by a sense of correctness, calmness, unity perhaps, understanding for others...  And sometimes it's just a piece of that puzzle that again, is confirmed through the aforementioned.

 

If you have the physiology, the chemistry, the physics, I'm sure a lot of folks would be all ears....

 

gluon parties doesn't really cut it for me, but is some cool research.  Was even above my sister's pay grade and she's a pretty hooked up gal....

[Joshpantera]

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

But let me offer this up just as part of the definition:  It's a knowing, a feeling, a physical reaction to the Truth maybe a revelation, an action to be accomplished, that is confirmed through the knowing/ feeling/ physical reaction.

 

In other words, a connection to Morality/Truth confirmed by a sense of correctness, calmness, unity perhaps, understanding for others...  And sometimes it's just a piece of that puzzle that again, is confirmed through the aforementioned.

 

Does the above differ from the universal definition I posted? If you believe it does differ, then can you explain what the differences are? 

 

Spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience, and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature.

 

Further comparative reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Does the above differ from the universal definition I posted? If you believe it does differ, then can you explain what the differences are? 

 

Spirituality involves the recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself, something more to being human than sensory experience, and that the greater whole of which we are part is cosmic or divine in nature.

 

Further comparative reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality

 

 

 

So? My Divine recognition is THAT relationship.  I don't get THAT relationship when I am in nature......other than the foothills of the Rockies from Boulder to Nederland.....if there is a Heaven, it probably looks similar.  But I don't recognize taking down the distinctions between me and that granite.  Uncertain how you would like to force me to recognize those feelings, that because we share chemistry and physics, and are separate and distinct in my reality, that I should get the woo because Josh says so.  Your view, the mental exercise of lack of physical distinction, does NOT induce the feelings ascribed for me.

 

You my friend are not holding up YOUR end of the discussion.  I am NOT the one claiming superiority...never have.  You have yet to show why your gluon amplitude should incite this connectivity/feelings, to my body.  And then somehow distinguish why my monotheistic feelings are inferior to your gluon feelings AFTER you define a physiological mechanism that works for both our bodies.

 

That would be the information case you are claiming....imo.

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

10 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

You my friend are not holding up YOUR end of the discussion.  I am NOT the one claiming superiority...never have.  You have yet to show why your gluon amplitude should incite this connectivity/feelings, to my body.  And then somehow distinguish why my monotheistic feelings are inferior to your gluon feelings AFTER you define a physiological mechanism that works for both our bodies.

 

That would be the information case you are claiming....imo.

 

The reason I have to try and lead you like a horse to water is because I get something and understand it, and you don't don't get it nor understand it at all yet. If you do get it, btw, you'll be like 'oh shit, that was simple.' Your not seeing something right now. 

 

The best way to proceed is to forget about the definition. You're going monotheist and I'm going pantheistic. So we need to make this not personal, but business. Not you and me, but the entire philosophy of pantheism and the belief structure and claims of monotheism. But to try and get you to see what I'm seeing, you need to participate and answer some questions honestly. Don't try and dodge them. 

 

First of all, if you claim christian belief, and christian belief claims global superiority through the great commission and everything else, you by default enter the debate attached to the superiority that christian claims have long set forward. If you deny christian superiority, you deny the claims of christianity and it's great commission concept of preaching the gospel to the ends of the earth for the salvation of all who believe. That's a superiority stance. It started long before me. And my argument opposing it a response to christianity's initial claims of superiority. 

 

So you claim NOT to be the one claiming superiority but you do claim to be christian. That's a contradiction. You need to explain how you can be christian but not accept the claims of christian superiority. 

 

I can demonstrate why it isn't. And why by simple default something else is better at explaining reality, spiritual thinking, and just about anything else. This debate isn't anywhere near over on my end. These pages are just the beginning of what can potentially go on. 

 

Please engage the questions honestly without trying to dodge or maneuver around them. 

 

1) Is god omnipresent or not? This is yes or no.