Josh "The Panther" Versus Edgarcito "The End3" : A Grudge Match, No Holds Barred

[Edgarcito]

I'll try to watch.  Off the cuff, I don't see that our consciousnesses are not the apex.  I'm not advocating for a universal conscious, but ours might be that at the moment......is what I was alluding to.  So reconsider this because I think it important.  Suppose you have my consciousness, and yours, and Joe Bob's next door.  These, per your definition, are essentially data points of consciousness out of that oneness you allude to.  Again, back to the topography scenario.....each person or form of consciousness is an elevation depending on their level and location.  The interesting thing is we have multiple points all looking at each other from the one source of evolution.  I can see you as a face of that consciousness, you can recognize me, and we, Joe Bob.  But I can also see the soil from which we arose.

 

So here's the deal. How may we adequately define who's face, who's topography, who's elevation of consciousness is superior.  The Christian?  The Hindu?  Joe Bob?  That's the question I want you to please answer.

 

Truthfully, I think it presents very much the same values we strive for as Christians, just a different way to envision viewing our fellow man and creation...

 

Again, I'll try to watch the clips.  Thanks for posting them again.

 

 

[Joshpantera]

13 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I'll try to watch.  Off the cuff, I don't see that our consciousnesses are not the apex.  I'm not advocating for a universal conscious, but ours might be that at the moment......is what I was alluding to.  So reconsider this because I think it important.  Suppose you have my consciousness, and yours, and Joe Bob's next door.  These, per your definition, are essentially data points of consciousness out of that oneness you allude to.

 

This does follow from the oneness idea. If existence if viewed as a fabric or primary substance out of which everything is formed out of, then each intelligent life form is something of a data point within the scheme of an eternal substance through this focus. 

 

13 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Again, back to the topography scenario.....each person or form of consciousness is an elevation depending on their level and location.  The interesting thing is we have multiple points all looking at each other from the one source of evolution.  I can see you as a face of that consciousness, you can recognize me, and we, Joe Bob.  But I can also see the soil from which we arose.

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Another thing is that when we peer out into the universe, what's happening? Properties of the universe are looking around at itself from within it's expanse. Mapping itself out. Point of observation, observing. Points of thought consciousness, thinking, considering, conceiving. When it comes to looking ahead at possible discoveries, I think makes sense to put into context what is happening now and what could happen going forward by applying the same logic. 

 

13 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

So here's the deal. How may we adequately define who's face, who's topography, who's elevation of consciousness is superior.  The Christian?  The Hindu?  Joe Bob?  That's the question I want you to please answer.

 

Truthfully, I think it presents very much the same values we strive for as Christians, just a different way to envision viewing our fellow man and creation...

 

Again, I'll try to watch the clips.  Thanks for posting them again.

 

Every data point is playing a role according to this focus. But let's not forget the extent of it. Not only are these people points of awareness and experience but the entire animal kingdom. Broaden the perspective of awareness all the way out. A bird is a point of awareness. A fish is one too. 

 

So we have an eternal fabric or substance of space let's call it, where data points of awareness exist. Of the data points of awareness, some are operating with thought consciousness. And then of the thought conscious data points of awareness, only a small fraction are operating in terms of "self awareness," or "self realization," right now at this stage of planetary development. These are the mystical types and I'll include scientific types who do understand the interconnection issue and the related consequences and conclusions. 

 

They are the apex in this universal consciousness situation. They're experience, in comparison to the experience of lesser realized experiences, is out front leading the way forward so to speak. From a spiritual perspective of human enlightenment and self realization. They are understanding that they are it. They are data points of awareness and thought conscious experience within the scheme of an eternal substance of existence. 

 

This can include the Bodhisattva idea. Becoming aware of what's going on and then choosing to interact the rest of the way through life from that platform or basis of self awareness. But a scientist could be a type of Bodhisattva from this expanded perspective. 

[Edgarcito]

Every data point is playing a role according to this focus. But let's not forget the extent of it. Not only are these people points of awareness and experience but the entire animal kingdom. Broaden the perspective of awareness all the way out. A bird is a point of awareness. A fish is one too. 

 

So we have an eternal fabric or substance of space let's call it, where data points of awareness exist. Of the data points of awareness, some are operating with thought consciousness. And then of the thought conscious data points of awareness, only a small fraction are operating in terms of "self awareness," or "self realization," right now at this stage of planetary development. These are the mystical types and I'll include scientific types who do understand the interconnection issue and the related consequences and conclusions. 

 

They are the apex in this universal consciousness situation. They're experience, in comparison to the experience of lesser realized experiences, is out front leading the way forward so to speak. From a spiritual perspective of human enlightenment and self realization. They are understanding that they are it. They are data points of awareness and thought conscious experience within the scheme of an eternal substance of existence. 

 

This can include the Bodhisattva idea. Becoming aware of what's going on and then choosing to interact the rest of the way through life from that platform or basis of self awareness. But a scientist could be a type of Bodhisattva from this expanded perspective. 

 

I don't guess in my mind it really matters how we flower the description...."data points of this focus"  could easily be another child born into this world....another iteration of humanity on Earth. 

 

In this scenario, the consciousness of the universe would be ours. 

 

So let's please hear the outcome of your theory.  Spiritual people vs. less spiritual?  Some beliefs superior?  Some iterations of "this" are just lower because they just are?  It has no value other than what the elite assign?  

 

Can we please leave out the flowered language?  Just a yes, or no, there are non-spiritual people in this world that assign no moral value to their iteration, etc. 

 

Seems rather boring....poking my head up each day in self discernment of "this".  No point to life other that what the current emphasis is spreading....

 

  

 

 

[Edgarcito]

Which really bring us back to what's the need of a spirituality where connectivity matters at all?  Why is a spirituality that meanders through space even concerned with rejoicing in connectivity.  Someone gets a gold star for realizing we might need to "become enlightened" so that we might survive?  Treat our resources in the same manner?  

 

Maybe spirituality in an evolved, innate reaction to actively supporting life and survival.... But then again we have countless species that kill and eat their young....  

[Joshpantera]

On 5/26/2021 at 5:40 PM, Edgarcito said:

In this scenario, the consciousness of the universe would be ours. 

 

So let's please hear the outcome of your theory.  Spiritual people vs. less spiritual?  Some beliefs superior?  Some iterations of "this" are just lower because they just are?  It has no value other than what the elite assign?  

 

Can we please leave out the flowered language?  Just a yes, or no, there are non-spiritual people in this world that assign no moral value to their iteration, etc. 

 

Who are these non spiritual people with no moral value? Do they exist outside of society? Because it's society itself that assigns moral values as I've already covered. And moral values evolve as societies evolve. 

 

The only issue of superior or inferior comes from the reality of an interconnected realm of existence we inhabit, and are an aspect of, and which spiritual traditions either put you in touch with the reality or actually point you away from it. Christianity has been directed to point away from that reality. Therefore standing as an inferior way of understanding reality, basically. When stood along side of options which better gel with the reality. 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 5:53 PM, Edgarcito said:

Which really bring us back to what's the need of a spirituality where connectivity matters at all?  Why is a spirituality that meanders through space even concerned with rejoicing in connectivity.  Someone gets a gold star for realizing we might need to "become enlightened" so that we might survive?  Treat our resources in the same manner?  

 

Maybe spirituality in an evolved, innate reaction to actively supporting life and survival.... But then again we have countless species that kill and eat their young....  

 

Because of what I just outlined, again, in my last paragraph above. 

 

I watched "Cocoon" last night with my wife and the boys. Even that sort of answers your question. Advanced life could possibly do all sorts of things. Travel the universe. Harness powers as of yet unknown. We don't know what's going on in complete. What if the entire universe cycles? How many times has this happened before?

 

And if things do cycle, what role does the rising of awareness in material and extending into intelligent life forms play in the grand scheme? Do you we know that intelligent life doesn't play some sort of key role in the evolution of an entire universe? 

 

The bottom line is that the possibilities and potential meanings are endless. You have no foundation for trying to poo poo anything I've offered as leading back to meaninglessness. That's 'your assertions' about me based on your own lack of understanding what I've said. That doesn't represent my own thought processes or expressions. Just you grasping at straws at this point to stay in the debate and possibly keep from losing if that were possible. 

[Joshpantera]

 

Alan Watts on related issues, especially concerning space itself as an often unnoticed factor of interconnection throughout the universe and with all living things. These are not new recognition's. They come from paying attention to what exists and observing everything. Combined with deeper contemplation. Going further beyond the ordinary day to day affairs of our conscious attention. To the core issues of existence.