Peanut Gallery for JoshPantera vs. Endgarcito3

[midniterider]

11 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

"I’ll tell you what Josh, let's do this, I’d like you not to disclose all you know, but disclose what you personally have had and believe to be spiritual connections/experiences. And then I’ll reciprocate. And then I’ll explain my take on spirituality. Thx" 

 

-edgarcito

 

Josh has already tried to tell him his experiences with spirituality. And begin to delve deeper into his current stance on spirituality. I think End just likes reading Josh's posts. Maybe @Joshpantera has a secret admirer lol. I think end is falling for ya in a love hate kinda way. 

 

Ed is stalling. Yawn.

[WalterP]

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Endgarcito3 does not know what his own stance on spirituality is.  He will not make an argument for christian spirituality because he doesn't really subscribe to it.  He simply finds some small comfort in his own interpretation of certain christian doctrines. 

 

He will never actually take a firm stance on anything; he never has, and seemingly never will, because his own beliefs are predicated on word salads and hickledy-pickledy acceptance of selected scriptures.  In this current shadow-boxing match, he will deliberately misunderstand, obfuscate, bluster, demand Josh make, remake, and further clarify hair-splitting points which he will then deny, after which he will shut down for a prolonged sabbatical and later come back as stubborn and obstinate as ever.  The one thing he will not do, is take a solid a solid position and stand firm in defense of it.

 

Sometimes I wish a muthafucka would.

 

But Edgacito should know and agree that his spirituality as a Christian is defined by scripture and not by what he feels.

 

If he tries to argue otherwise then he is stepping outside of the biblical definition of Christian spirituality.

 

There are warnings in scripture not to do this.

 

 

[WalterP]

I’ll tell you what Josh, let's do this, I’d like you not to disclose all you know, but disclose what you personally have had and believe to be spiritual connections/experiences.  And then I’ll reciprocate.  And then I’ll explain my take on spirituality.  Thx.  

 

As a Christian all of Edgarcito's spiritual connections/experiences must fall within the biblical definition of spirituality.

 

Also, as a Christian, his take on spirituality must fall within the biblical definition of spirituality.

 

If they don't... 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

10/4 So its gonna be a pretty shitty debate then lol. 

Likely.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

But Edgacito should know and agree that his spirituality as a Christian is defined by scripture and not by what he feels.

 

If he tries to argue otherwise then he is stepping outside of the biblical definition of Christian spirituality.

 

There are warnings in scripture not to do this.

 

 

Ed is perfectly at peace with his heresy... because Grace.

[WalterP]

You know, you're welcome to rigidly define me as this describes, but I think you know better...

 

Edgarcito wrote this to me, but I can't post anything in the Josh vs Ed thread until I'm permitted to do so.

 

But I can reply to it here.

 

 

 

I don't rigidly define you at all, Edgarcito.

 

It's god and the bible that have set down a very clear definition of what true Christian spirituality is.

 

If you don't agree to god's terms then you are dead to Christ and dead to the Holy Spirit and not a Christian at all.

 

It might help you to think on these questions.

 

1.  Who is it who gets to define what Christian spirituality is, god or Edgarcito?

 

2. Who's place is it to submit, god to Edgarcito's will or Edgarcito to god's will?

 

3. Who has the final say in spiritual matters, Edgarcito's subjectivity or the god of the bible, who is above all subjectivity?

 

These verses might help you understand that you have things backwards.

 

The god of the bible does not bow down to your subjectivity, Edgarcito.

 

2 Peter 1 : 20 & 21

 

 ²⁰ Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 

²¹ For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

1 Corinthians 12 : 7 - 11

 

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 

8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 

9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 

10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

 

Until you submit to god's will and put your fixation with subjectivity to death you will remain at war with god.

 

No wonder you can't control your tongue and spew out insults and filthy words!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[v__a__s__t]

7 hours ago, WalterP said:

As a Christian all of Edgarcito's spiritual connections/experiences must fall within the biblical definition of spirituality.

 

Also, as a Christian, his take on spirituality must fall within the biblical definition of spirituality.

 

If they don't... 

 

as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter -- spiritual experiences happen however they happen.  they are not dictated by what someone outside of themselves decides they must be.

 

Also, as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter, one's take on spirituality must be and will be however it is in actuality -- for them.

 

you don't make sense.

[florduh]

10 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter -- spiritual experiences happen however they happen.

Reminds me of my all time favorite "testimony" on one Wednesday night at church. Young woman stood up to tell us how she went to her freezer to get the ice cube tray and her finger became stuck to it. She prayed fervently, and Praise The Lord, Jesus unstuck her finger from the ice tray! God is good!!!

 

So no, not all "spiritual" experiences are valid just because someone says so. Sometimes they're just stupid. Besides, Christianity and Spirituality are natural enemies.

 

 

[midniterider]

Ed: Christianity specifically provides a standard and mechanism to know the greater, "God", through the human condition, through Christ.

 

Josh: (paraphrased) We ARE the greater God. We are the Christ.

 

....

 

Eastern philosophy provides a standard mechanism as well, not just to chase after or worship God as a being separate from yourself but to realize yourself AS God, AS the multiverse, AS the All That Is. Buddhism employs koans and zazen to leap past illusion. Advaita Vedanta uses self inquiry as a mechanism to know thyself...or rather dispel the illusion of thyself.

 

Josh (and Alan Watts) pointed out the bits of Eastern thought in the bible. I saw those things as well when I first started studying the bible.

 

"I am that I am."

"I am in the father and the father is in me."

"The kingdom of God is within you."

 

 

[midniterider]

 

45 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

 

Also, as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter, one's take on spirituality must be and will be however it is in actuality -- for them.

 

you don't make sense.

 

Christians claim to be bible proponents, but then ignore whatever parts of the bible they dont like. They claim to be IN the world, not OF the world, then get jobs, have families, have a mortgage and two car payments like everyone else. 

 

I think Walter is pointing that out. To be a 'Christian' the bible requires you to think and act a certain way. To be a half-assed Christian, just claim the title, ignore the bible and act like everyone else. 

[WalterP]

53 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

 

as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter -- spiritual experiences happen however they happen.  they are not dictated by what someone outside of themselves decides they must be.

 

Also, as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter, one's take on spirituality must be and will be however it is in actuality -- for them.

 

you don't make sense.

 

Edgarcito calls himself a Christian, v_a_s_t.

 

So, who is it who calls the shots in Christianity?

 

Would that be Christ or would that be Edgarcito?

 

Or do spiritual experiences just 'happen' in Christianity and aren't dictated by god?

 

Not much of a creator, king, lord and ruler of everything if stuff just 'happens' is he?

 

 

[TABA]

1 minute ago, midniterider said:

Christians claim to be bible proponents, but then ignore whatever parts of the bible they dont like.

 

1 minute ago, midniterider said:

To be a half-assed Christian, just claim the title, ignore the bible and act like everyone else. 

Most “Christians” are in fact half-assed Christians, for this reason.  In fairness though, even the most serious Christian has to ignore the parts of the Bible that contradict other parts.  The challenge is to decide which parts to run with and which to ignore.  Most believers leave that up to the denomination they ended up in. 

[midniterider]

Ed: Then the question becomes why are we not connected all the time...given we are physically present with creation. 

 

I am continuously connected to an oxygen supply, to the ground, to a food source, to a shelter and to numerous requirements to maintain life. I just am not continually aware of it. Spiritually speaking, I am Brahman living a pretense that I am a bag of flesh cuz, hey, why not. lol 

 

edit: And then I lose awareness of being Brahman ... because it's fun pretending to be something else. 

[midniterider]

13 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

Most “Christians” are in fact half-assed Christians, for this reason.  In fairness though, even the most serious Christian has to ignore the parts of the Bible that contradict other parts.  The challenge is to decide which parts to run with and which to ignore.  Most believers leave that up to the denomination they ended up in. 

 

 

Right. Devout Christians live just like atheists and agnostics. Then claim to be different.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

20 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

 

Christians claim to be bible proponents, but then ignore whatever parts of the bible they dont like. They claim to be IN the world, not OF the world, then get jobs, have families, have a mortgage and two car payments like everyone else. 

 

I think Walter is pointing that out. To be a 'Christian' the bible requires you to think and act a certain way. To be a half-assed Christian, just claim the title, ignore the bible and act like everyone else. 

 

I dont think anyone needs to support the notion that Christians have to sell all their shit for christ and give it to the church BS. Just to be spiritual as a Christian. Even if the Bible does promote it. Thats some straight up cult shit. 

 

A branch of my former church promoted just that during the world war period as well as later and stole a bunch of peoples property. 

 

I'm just very wary of promoting that train of thought on this forum because there are still cults like that out there. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

ED,

"..becoming heartwood via the intercessor part of the tree supporting the new growth....believers becoming the Cross, the Staff, the Tree itself."

 

This reflects the limitations of christian spirituality that Josh is speaking of. Biblically the only way to become the heartwood or advance in christ is to Deny ones very nature. You have to deny what makes a person unique. What makes us..... us. How can one truly be spiritual and one with everything if they feel they need to become someone else. (IE Christ) How can one become enlightened without realizing that you are you and can be no one else. How can denying individuality to become "Christ like" even start to promote a higher spirituality. And how can you be truly spiritual if you consider yourself "better" than others because of your Christian beliefs.

 

If it were left to individual interpretation as it is with the Buddha I imagine it could be possible. But as Josh has already pointed out. In most of Christianity that isn't possible. There is a set of rules that puts great limitations on how far you can go. 

[WalterP]

2 hours ago, v__a__s__t said:

 

as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter -- spiritual experiences happen however they happen.  they are not dictated by what someone outside of themselves decides they must be.

 

Also, as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter, one's take on spirituality must be and will be however it is in actuality -- for them.

 

you don't make sense.

 

So there we have it.

 

Edgarcito and v_a_s_t promoting the cult of the self.

 

How does it go?

 

Ah yes, like this.

 

I am the one having the spiritual experience, so I interpret as I want to because it's MY experience and nobody else's.

 

I am the one reading MY holy book, so I interpret it as I want to because I'M the one reading it and that's MY experience and nobody else's.

 

I, me, myself.

 

 

 

 

How strange for the Christian Edgarcito that the bible he claims to be god's perfect and inerrant word tells him to live in exactly the opposite way.

 

 

[midniterider]

Ed:  Makes it more real for me seeing this than wandering around pretending I'm completely God...  

 

It's personal preference, really.

 

Some people like to think they are sinners.

Others like to think they are limitless being. 

 

 

 

 

 

[v__a__s__t]

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

Ed: Christianity specifically provides a standard and mechanism to know the greater, "God", through the human condition, through Christ.

 

Josh: (paraphrased) We ARE the greater God. We are the Christ.

 

....

 

Eastern philosophy provides a standard mechanism as well, not just to chase after or worship God as a being separate from yourself but to realize yourself AS God, AS the multiverse, AS the All That Is. Buddhism employs koans and zazen to leap past illusion. Advaita Vedanta uses self inquiry as a mechanism to know thyself...or rather dispel the illusion of thyself.

 

Josh (and Alan Watts) pointed out the bits of Eastern thought in the bible. I saw those things as well when I first started studying the bible.

 

"I am that I am."

"I am in the father and the father is in me."

"The kingdom of God is within you."

 

 

 

Christianity is about becoming At-one with the "I Am" -- more and more like Christ/God -- becoming perfect, not merely realizing any number of good and even amazing things.  it's about becoming those things, becoming more and more.   it's about finding our way to the Kingdom, not merely realizing it's within us -- somewhere.  it's a journey, a path.... that can be stifled by church dogma, wrong or unhelpful ways of thinking and/or beliefs, and/or thinking we know already, if/when we don't.  whenever we don't -- no matter how much we think we might know.... about anything.

 

 

James 3:1

1Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."

 

 

17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

 

Matthew 18:3
Then he said: I promise you this. If you don't change and become like a child, you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[florduh]

36 minutes ago, v__a__s__t said:

it's a journey, a path....

Is there any evidence for this? I'd love to see it.

[sdelsolray]

6 hours ago, v__a__s__t said:

 

as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter -- spiritual experiences happen however they happen.  they are not dictated by what someone outside of themselves decides they must be.

 

Also, as a Christian, or any kind of person for that matter, one's take on spirituality must be and will be however it is in actuality -- for them.

...

 

How infomative and convenient.

[midniterider]

4 hours ago, v__a__s__t said:

 

Christianity is about becoming At-one with the "I Am" -- more and more like Christ/God -- becoming perfect, not merely realizing any number of good and even amazing things.  it's about becoming those things, becoming more and more.   it's about finding our way to the Kingdom, not merely realizing it's within us -- somewhere.  it's a journey, a path.... that can be stifled by church dogma, wrong or unhelpful ways of thinking and/or beliefs, and/or thinking we know already, if/when we don't.  whenever we don't -- no matter how much we think we might know.... about anything.

 

 

James 3:1

1Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness."

 

 

17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

 

Matthew 18:3
Then he said: I promise you this. If you don't change and become like a child, you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

I think I can follow my own path of Eastern religion, find peace and enlightenment and not bother with any flavor of Christianity, right?

[Joshpantera]

10 hours ago, midniterider said:

Ed: Christianity specifically provides a standard and mechanism to know the greater, "God", through the human condition, through Christ.

 

Josh: (paraphrased) We ARE the greater God. We are the Christ.

 

....

 

Eastern philosophy provides a standard mechanism as well, not just to chase after or worship God as a being separate from yourself but to realize yourself AS God, AS the multiverse, AS the All That Is. Buddhism employs koans and zazen to leap past illusion. Advaita Vedanta uses self inquiry as a mechanism to know thyself...or rather dispel the illusion of thyself.

 

Josh (and Alan Watts) pointed out the bits of Eastern thought in the bible. I saw those things as well when I first started studying the bible.

 

"I am that I am."

"I am in the father and the father is in me."

"The kingdom of God is within you."

 

 

 

This is where the spiritual content of the bible is to be found, if anywhere at all. And like I said tonight, it's been purposely obscured by orthodox religious authorities. You can see where interpreters have tried to shift the meaning during interpretation. But they haven't eliminated the ability to find it. And Watt's picked up on that. 

 

The fact that the writer was paraphrasing Psalm 82 where it says, "Haven't I said you are gods," and then goes on to ask why they accuse him of blasphemy for saying that he is "a" son of god, goes to show how the context makes better sense translated as "a" son of god as it is given in Psalm 82. It's plural, "you are gods." There's no sense of only one son of god when stripped bare like that. The translators down the line wanted it to read "the son of god." 

 

And that is where they obscure the meaning. It would seem that his disciples were being taught to understand this. The kingdom of god is within you also doesn't refer to one singular person. And in the Thomas gospels it's even clearer: 

 

"The Kingdom of the Father is spread upon the earth but men do not see it." 

 

Again, nothing particular to one person here. So the idea that no one goes to the Father but through me, well, it seems pretty clear the "me" part of that verse probably means the teachings that he's speaking from. All of those quotes hint back at the mystical realization. 

 

No one goes to the god but through the mystical realization (outlined in all of those verses) where you understand that the two are not two, but the same. And that people are supposed to wake up to being "sons of god" in that sense. 

 

 

[midniterider]

19 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This is where the spiritual content of the bible is to be found, if anywhere at all. And like I said tonight, it's been purposely obscured by orthodox religious authorities. You can see where interpreters have tried to shift the meaning during interpretation. But they haven't eliminated the ability to find it. And Watt's picked up on that. 

 

The fact that the writer was paraphrasing Psalm 82 where it says, "Haven't I said you are gods," and then goes on to ask why they accuse him of blasphemy for saying that he is "a" son of god, goes to show how the context makes better sense translated as "a" son of god as it is given in Psalm 82. It's plural, "you are gods." There's no sense of only one son of god when stripped bare like that. The translators down the line wanted it to read "the son of god." 

 

And that is where they obscure the meaning. It would seem that his disciples were being taught to understand this. The kingdom of god is within you also doesn't refer to one singular person. And in the Thomas gospels it's even clearer: 

 

"The Kingdom of the Father is spread upon the earth but men do not see it." 

 

Again, nothing particular to one person here. So the idea that no one goes to the Father but through me, well, it seems pretty clear the "me" part of that verse probably means the teachings that he's speaking from. All of those quotes hint back at the mystical realization. 

 

No one goes to the god but through the mystical realization where you understand that are one and the same. 

 

I'll have to think on that last sentence....is there any other cool mystical stuff in Thomas? I'll google it.

[Robert_Tulip]

  

16 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

what you think of as spiritual doesn't even really classify as spiritual to the people in the world on the right side of the scale I've mapped out. 

Literalistic thinkers --------------------------------------------------------------Symbolic thinkers

Mainstream christianity----------------------------------------------------------eastern and western mysticism

So this is the very heart of the issue and debate.

·       To comment on this point from the debate thread, my view is that spirituality is about real connection, whether between people, or between people and a noumenal reality, that is with the world as it actually is rather than just as it appears. 

·       The problem with the literalistic thinking of mainstream Christianity, that tends to make it distinctly unspiritual in any genuine way, is that it interposes a dogmatic belief structure between us and the noumenal, and thereby constructs an idol in place of reality. 

·       There certainly is some genuine spirituality in conventional religion, but only when it uses its dogmatic symbols to gain connection to what is beyond those symbols. 

·       Everything in the Bible should be viewed in this light, as a symbolic representation for something quite abstract and mysterious. 

·       For example, the figure of Jesus Christ was invented to represent the connection between time and eternity, the presence of eternity within time. 

Quote

These people who don't read their scriptures as literalist's are much more into the spiritual side of religion. Whereas people who read their religious writings as some sort of historical book and agree to believe the history haven't gotten to the point of anything spiritual in the process. 

 

·       Yes, this continues to open up the deficiencies of all forms of fundamentalism, especially the Bibliolatry that insists the Bible is historically accurate even where there is no corroboration and the stories make far better sense as parables than history. 

·       The ancient mystics who wrote the Bible had a sociology rather like the divisions of Plato’s Republic between rulers, managers and plebians, or Orwell’s Inner Party, Outer Party and Proles.  Each of these social structures involves a 1:10:90 ratio.  For the mystics, the division was between the spiritual 1%, the religious 10% and the materialist 90%.  This mystical sociology defined these three groups as pneumatic (spiritual), psychic (religious) and hylic (materialist). 

·       The reason the mystics were crushed by Rome was that this model set up an alternative power structure that the empire saw as seditious.  Since Roman Christendom has so thoroughly polluted Christian thinking, the current mainstream of faith basically rejects spiritual awareness in favour of the religious dogmatism that refuses to see the symbolic intent of the original language, and as a result allows the materialist majority to rightly perceive religion as totally incoherent.