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Peanut Gallery for JoshPantera vs. Endgarcito3


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30 minutes ago, WalterP said:

I've asked you repeatedly to make a knowledge based link, between some yet unknown spiritual definition you've yet to disclose (other than people getting high in the jungle), to some guy's explanation of space.  You have NOT done that.  NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT done that.

 

 

 

Yes, Josh has done exactly that.

 

He used his knowledge to describe a spiritual model that shows the interconnectedness of all things.

 

I used my knowledge of quantum mechanics and cosmology to provide evidence that his model is real.

 

That is the knowledge-based link you asked for.

 

I can cite the exactly where Josh and I did this.

 

He has done what you asked Edgarcito.

 

In spades.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the only way christian apologist's can seem to operate. They will make demands. The demands will be met. They will raise the bar and change the goal posts. They will throw straw men and red herrings. It's always the same. 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

This is the only way christian apologist's can seem to operate. They will make demands. The demands will be met. They will raise the bar and change the goal posts. They will throw straw men and red herrings. It's always the same. 

 

 

 

 

So it seems, Josh.

 

But surely, in the light of this...

 

 

 

In this corner, weighing in as an agnostic atheist, with several title debates under his belt, the Panther from South Florida.... @Joshpantera

 

And in this corner, coming on strong as a longtime believer in something even he doesn't fully understand, from somewhere in "Don't Mess With Texas ".... @Edgarcito

 

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!

 

The rules are simple: each of you must state your case for superior spirituality based on what you actually believe.  Last man standing will be proclaimed the undefeated spritual champ (of this match, anyway).  The rest of you, get your asses to the Peanut Gallery.

 

 

...it's for the RedneckProf to declare the identity of the last man standing?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Romans 13 : 1 - 7

 

Submission to Governing Authorities

 

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 

2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 

3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 

4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 

5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 

7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honour, then honour.

 

 

Pay attention, Edgarcito!

 

 

The RedneckProfessor has spoken.

 

God says that you must submit to the Prof's authority and pay him respect and honour

 

If he declares that Josh is the last man standing, then you must abide by his ruling.

 

If he rules that you are the loser, you must accept it.

 

 

 

Have a nice day!  :)

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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As others have noted, I also note the failure of the parties to mutually describe and agree upon a definition, for purposes of the debate, of the term "spirituality".  That should be done before proceeding further.  Good luck with that!

 

Afterwards, I suggest a further agreement should be reached concerning the concept of "superior" as used in the term "superior spirituality", again for the purposes of this debate.  I suspect that would be a fool's errand, as it is likely that there are many paths to spirituality, all of which are equally valid, as least when viewed from the perspective of the person experiencing their own spirituality, and each of which are incapable of gradation based on external value-based judgments.

 

Short version:  Woo woo is specific to the woo wooer.

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Kind of interesting conversation actually....talked with my sister who just retired from the space physics lab at the U of Colorado.  She seemed to think a vacuum state was higher energy than a condensed particle state, but also said the conversation was over her head.  Still kind of interesting...

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Nice to see Edgarcito's as inconsistent as ever.

 

Just a little while ago he wrote that the science supporting Josh's model of spirituality was crappy science and only a theory.

 

If so, why bother talking to a scientist from a space physics lab?

 

Surely faith trumps science every time?

 

 

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14 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

As others have noted, I also note the failure of the parties to mutually describe and agree upon a definition, for purposes of the debate, of the term "spirituality".  That should be done before proceeding further.  Good luck with that!

 

Afterwards, I suggest a further agreement should be reached concerning the concept of "superior" as used in the term "superior spirituality", again for the purposes of this debate.  I suspect that would be a fool's errand, as it is likely that there are many paths to spirituality, all of which are equally valid, as least when viewed from the perspective of the person experiencing their own spirituality, and each of which are incapable of gradation based on external value-based judgments.

 

Short version:  Woo woo is specific to the woo wooer.

 

 

Right, everyone has a different idea of what spirituality is...theirs is the best and their opponent's idea is BS.

 

Of course you may never know if a Christian 'really' likes their belief system or if they are just afraid to doubt it or challenge it. 

 

I like advaita vedanta but there's no consequence if I decide it's hooey. Some people want rules and structure. Others don't. 

 

 

 

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For any members who have concerns about 'woo' in the ongoing debate between JoshPantera and Edgarcito, I'd just like to clarify my position on the matter.

 

I am a member of Josh's counsel team.  But I do not share his views and beliefs and I am not required to. 

 

So, when he has posited the existence of something that pervades all of space and time I have been able to find a scientific phenomenon that is inferred to do this.  This quantum phenomenon, like all such quantum phenomena, has an ambiguous relationship with the temporal concepts we are all familiar with - the past, the present and the future.

 

It is extremely difficult to pin down any quantum scale entities to such specifics as 'now' and 'here' or 'then' and 'there'.  They seem to inhabit a reality where the hard specifics of time and space are blurred and don't apply as we intuitively think they should.  The quantum realm is a barely explored frontier of human knowledge and, as with all such blank areas on the map, there are those who are keen to fill in the gaps with what they believe, hope or desire to be there.

 

I have no such beliefs, hopes or desires. 

 

I simply accept that these are legitimately predicted, observed, measured and tested physical phenomenon and I draw no metaphysical or spiritual conclusions from them.

 

In helping Josh I am simply providing evidence and some explanation of certain observed physical phenomenon that can be philosophically interpreted as being a correlate to his 'void'.  I do not hold to that interpretation myself and I also recognize that correlation does not equal causation.  All I have done is to provide evidence of something physical that might correspond to something in Josh's spiritual belief system.  

 

Nothing more.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/16/2021 at 8:36 PM, sdelsolray said:

As others have noted, I also note the failure of the parties to mutually describe and agree upon a definition, for purposes of the debate, of the term "spirituality".  That should be done before proceeding further.  Good luck with that!

 

I have asked Ed if he agrees with the universal definition that I proposed, and if not, then he can tell me what he proposes so we can at least play this out all the way. And let it go where it goes. 

 

On 4/16/2021 at 8:36 PM, sdelsolray said:

Afterwards, I suggest a further agreement should be reached concerning the concept of "superior" as used in the term "superior spirituality", again for the purposes of this debate.  I suspect that would be a fool's errand, as it is likely that there are many paths to spirituality, all of which are equally valid, as least when viewed from the perspective of the person experiencing their own spirituality, and each of which are incapable of gradation based on external value-based judgments.

 

If we can get something down with the first issue, we can try the second. If Ed will engage the issues. 

 

In Advaita Vedanta there is the idea that all paths lead to the same destination. Which is that you are one with the god of the religion / ultimate reality. Making them all equally valid by that standard. So if a christian were to pay attention to things like the citations in the John gospel, for instance, they could come to the same destination as the Vedantan mystics - "Thou Art That." 

 

In this sense I think it would come down to presentations. If all paths 'can' leading to the same destination ("thou art that"), it doesn't mean that everyone will figure out that they all do lead there. Especially if some presentations have been obscured in ways that hinder such an understanding. As has been the case with christianity. 

 

Christianity claims a superior spiritual status in the world, meanwhile, an objective comparison can show it ranking lower than other paths in terms of clarity, easy to understand, and straightforwardness getting someone to the final destination which is attainable - "Thou Art That." It would be harder for a christian to get to the same destination as the Vedantan mystic. And the blatant presentation for all intensive purposes makes for a superior way of getting someone to that final destination. 

 

 

 

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On 4/17/2021 at 5:57 PM, WalterP said:

For any members who have concerns about 'woo' in the ongoing debate between JoshPantera and Edgarcito, I'd just like to clarify my position on the matter.

 

Even more to the point, we all know Ed has woo in the match. But can anyone cite where I have introduced woo woo?

 

Certainly not the analogy to space as interconnecting all things. That we are the fabric of existence itself which is where the question of ultimate goes - "Thou Art That." Nothing supernatural about that insight. Just spiritual feelings about nature and the cosmos and the interconnection of it all just the way everything is. There's no reason to read more into than that. 

 

This is a woo versus not woo spiritual debate. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

If someone didn't have any knowledge of the biblical stories and their bases for communion, prayer, and intercession by the holy spirit, no one would have any frame of reference to call the subjective experiences by those names. 

 

People have wanted us to arrive at an agreed definition of spirituality. I put forward a universal definition that blankets everyone. Do you reject it? Agree with it? 

 

If you reject it, why? 

 

And what do you propose as a definition? 

 

I think we should at least attempt to get through this as many people in the gallery have commented on it. 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

So there is no end to me. I'll just pop up as someone else, later on.

 

I remember when I began to realize that these myths are like riddles.

 

Who am I? What has no beginning or end? What is born over and over again? What is the past, present, and future? 

 

The fabric of existence itself. It spans out. Has no fixed beginning or end. Is the past, present, and future. It's the "omni" aspect. And the big mystical and spiritual realization is that we've always been it. The god symbolizes it in myth, and the point is to get to where a person realizes that they are what the god symbolizes in the myths - the absolute factor of reality which is the whole. 

 

I will continue to maintain that there are superior and inferior presentations, considering that all paths can lead to the same destination. All presentations are not equally effective. Especially when some of them are arranged with stumbling blocks that you have to navigate around in order to get to the destination - as is the case with christianity. Or else there would be enlightened christians running all around the world. The evidence goes the other way. Christianity spawns more un-enlightenment than otherwise. Pulling back from the destination that all paths can lead to. Working against what could have been the intention of a writer like John. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I remember when I began to realize that these myths are like riddles.

 

Who am I? What has no beginning or end? What is born over and over again? What is the past, present, and future? 

 

The fabric of existence itself. It spans out. Has no fixed beginning or end. Is the past, present, and future. It's the "omni" aspect. And the big mystical and spiritual realization is that we've always been it. The god symbolizes it in myth, and the point is to get to where a person realizes that they are what the god symbolizes in the myths - the absolute factor of reality which is the whole. 

 

I will continue to maintain that there are superior and inferior presentations, considering that all paths can lead to the same destination. All presentations are not equally effective. Especially when some of them are arranged with stumbling blocks that you have to navigate around in order to get to the destination - as is the case with christianity. Or else there would be enlightened christians running all around the world. The evidence goes the other way. Christianity spawns more un-enlightenment than otherwise. Pulling back from the destination that all paths can lead to. Working against what could have been the intention of a writer like John. 

 

 

 

I think a system of thought and experience that intentionally blinds you, prevents you or forbids you from conceiving that you might be the All That Is , is an inferior philosophy. 

 

A system of thought that shames you does a disservice. But hey, it's all part of the show. :) I AM every Christian that rails against those other 'satanic beliefs', and I AM every other person of every other belief system.

 

How many lifetimes have I been a Christian, an atheist, a pagan?  lol

 

Though I may not have the 'present experience' of Sat Chit Ananda...at least this go-round I'm at least conceptually aware that I AM THAT. Advaita keeps popping back into this current life, reminding me I am more than just a bag of skin. 

 

Now, since I AM THAT ... and YOU ARE THAT .... can I borrow twenty bucks? (jk, haha)

 

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In this corner, weighing in as an agnostic atheist, with several title debates under his belt, the Panther from South Florida.... @Joshpantera

 

And in this corner, coming on strong as a longtime believer in something even he doesn't fully understand, from somewhere in "Don't Mess With Texas ".... @Edgarcito

 

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!

 

The rules are simple: each of you must state your case for superior spirituality based on what you actually believe.  Last man standing will be proclaimed the undefeated spritual champ (of this match, anyway).  The rest of you, get your asses to the Peanut Gallery.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hello Redneck Professor.  :)

 

I was just wondering how things were as regards who is the last man standing in this match?

 

Any news?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

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14 hours ago, WalterP said:

I was just wondering how things were as regards who is the last man standing in this match?

Most of us post on here while sitting down in front of a computer or on a phone or tablet.  That makes it improbable that either of these fine contestants could accurately be proclaimed as the "last man standing."

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35 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Ok then Professor.

 

In plain English, please tell us who the winner is.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

Every member on this website is a winner as far as I'm concerned; but I'll make an exception for you if you insist.

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1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Every member on this website is a winner as far as I'm concerned; but I'll make an exception for you if you insist.

 

Ok Professor.

 

Noted.

 

If it was your intention to make me feel like a loser, then you've succeeded.

 

Well done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Glad I could help.

 

Maybe you could help Josh out in the same way, Prof?

 

So, that even though he did two things Edgarcito did not...

 

(define a coherent model of spirituality and support it with scientific evidence)

 

...he can feel like a loser too.

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23 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Maybe you could help Josh out in the same way, Prof?

So, that even though he did two things Edgarcito did not...

(define a coherent model of spirituality and support it with scientific evidence)

...he can feel like a loser too.

Did you really expect there to be a clear, objective "winner" in a debate over a topic as subjective as spiritual "superiority"?  You, a self-professed champion of logic and reason? 

 

Did Josh do a better job of presenting his case?  Sure.  Did he demonstrate that his spirituality is the superior one?  Not to my satisfaction; and, as you're on record as disagreeing with him in all but the sciency bits, not to yours either.  

 

And the simple truism is that the superior spirituality is the one that helps an individual become a better person or live a better life.  Mysticism works for some; science works for others.  Apparently for Josh, scientifical mysticism is the bee's knees.  But, is it superior?  My answer is no.

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