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Edgarcito,   Please recall Josh's model of spirituality and the scientific evidence cited about the interconnectedness of all things.   The probability wave of each and every quant

I say "no" to absolute free will.  Our decisions are informed not only by our conscious minds but by our unconscious ones as well, and tend to be reactions to external circumstances and events.  There

If I decide not to love Jesus can I still decide to go to heaven?    If I murder people can I decide not to be arrested? 

Here's my off the cuff thought.  I believe yes, there exists absolute free will in the ability to make a yes/no decision in itself....i.e. no ramifications, no consequences, no considerations, just yes or no.  Then the question for me is does my body possess innate bias.

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24 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I guess the question is:  Is the free will that we recognize/describe, is it absolute.  If not, why not.

 

To answer that question in the context of biblical Christianity we would first have to define what is meant by god's omniscience.

 

Here's what the (perfect and inerrant) bible (that Edgarcito believes in) says.

 

Hebrews 4:13

And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

 

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;

His understanding is infinite.

 

Psalm 139:4

Even before there is a word on my tongue,

Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

 

Isaiah 46:9-10

“Remember the former things long past,

For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is no one like Me,

Declaring the end from the beginning,

And from ancient times things which have not been done,

Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,

And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

 

John 1 : 1 - 3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

2 He was with God in the beginning. 

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, WalterP said:

 

To answer that question in the context of biblical Christianity we would first have to define what is meant by god's omniscience.

 

Here's what the (perfect and inerrant) bible (that Edgarcito believes in) says.

 

Hebrews 4:13

And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

 

Psalm 147:5

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;

His understanding is infinite.

 

Psalm 139:4

Even before there is a word on my tongue,

Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

 

Isaiah 46:9-10

“Remember the former things long past,

For I am God, and there is no other;

I am God, and there is no one like Me,

Declaring the end from the beginning,

And from ancient times things which have not been done,

Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,

And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;

 

John 1 : 1 - 3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

2 He was with God in the beginning. 

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

So you're saying that because humanity is a creation of God, it has a inherent God bias?

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The video points out the problem with your yes/no decision. It's still not free will. So at best it's inclusive. 

 

So the next question is going to follow behind the not free will situation of the first. Innate bias comes in behind the not free will yes/no decision. 

 

The problem with most issues is that people want to make a conclusion from the outset about something that is honestly inclusive and then logic leap forward from the uncertain or false premise. This is how theism works. Someone makes a presupposition with no conclusive evidence and then leap forward acting as though the presupposition is true and correct. But if it's not true and correct, then the logic that follows won't be true and correct. 

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32 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Here's my off the cuff thought.  I believe yes, there exists absolute free will in the ability to make a yes/no decision in itself....i.e. no ramifications, no consequences, no considerations, just yes or no.  Then the question for me is does my body possess innate bias.

 

Edgarcito,

 

Please recall Josh's model of spirituality and the scientific evidence cited about the interconnectedness of all things.

 

The probability wave of each and every quantum particle is spread out across the entire universe.

 

Therefore, we exist in an ocean of overlapping probability waves that interconnect everything.

 

This means that whatever decision you make in the privacy of your own mind is connected to everything else in the universe.

 

It is therefore impossible for you to discount the possibility that there are infinite ramifications, consequences and considerations for every decision you make.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So you're saying that because humanity is a creation of God, it has a inherent God bias?

 

No, Edgarcito.

 

I'm saying that you believe the bible is god's perfect and inerrant word that cannot lead to falsity and error.

 

Therefore, you should accept what the bible has to say about god's omniscience and use that as the basis for your understanding of free will.

 

I'm happy to help you work through the logic of this and I'm sure Josh would like to help too.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So you're saying that because humanity is a creation of God, it has a inherent God bias?

 

Furthermore, Satan and all of the angels who rebelled were also creations of god.

 

Look how that turned out.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Is the free will that we recognize/describe

This is a faulty premise.

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13 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

The video points out the problem with your yes/no decision. It's still not free will. So at best it's inclusive. 

 

So the next question is going to follow behind the not free will situation of the first. Innate bias comes in behind the not free will yes/no decision. 

 

The problem with most issues is that people want to make a conclusion from the outset about something that is honestly inclusive and then logic leap forward from the uncertain or false premise. This is how theism works. Someone makes a presupposition with no conclusive evidence and then leap forward acting as though the presupposition is true and correct. But if it's not true and correct, then the logic that follows won't be true and correct. 

One step at a time please.  

 

So in A&E's case, they were essentially blank slates outside two influences, God and the serpent.  

 

For the thought process, I am ignoring any potential bias brought through creation itself.... what would amount to a God bias.  My question again, is, did absolute free will exist at this point (innocence).

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1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I see that now, thanks.

 

Glad I could help.

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18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

One step at a time please.  

 

So in A&E's case, they were essentially blank slates outside two influences, God and the serpent.  

 

For the thought process, I am ignoring any potential bias brought through creation itself.... what would amount to a God bias.  My question again, is, did absolute free will exist at this point (innocence).

 

Not exactly, Edgarcito.

 

Being made without the ability to recognize or understand good or evil Adam and Eve could not be influenced to knowingly do good or evil.

 

The text of genesis 3 makes it clear that they only acquired the ability to 'know' after they had been tricked into disobeying by the serpent.

 

Their disobedience was an unknowing disobedience.

 

They knew they were disobeying god but they did not know that this act was an evil one.

 

That knowledge only came to them after they ate the forbidden fruit.

 

We can see this in the fear and shame they displayed and Adam's child-like attempt to shift the blame on to Eve.

 

 

But could you please explain what you mean by innocence being absolute free will.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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I say "no" to absolute free will.  Our decisions are informed not only by our conscious minds but by our unconscious ones as well, and tend to be reactions to external circumstances and events.  There are a lot of constraints in play.

 

(And as I see it, the only thing that makes the universe non-deterministic is randomness.  Only when the universe itself doesn't know what it's going to do next is there a possibility of more than one path forward.)

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1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I guess the question is:  Is the free will that we recognize/describe, is it absolute.  If not, why not.

 

If I decide not to love Jesus can I still decide to go to heaven? 

 

If I murder people can I decide not to be arrested? 

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Ed is in an interesting spot and one that I doubled down on several times at least a decade before I became an apostate.

 

The explicit claim of free will contains an implicit claim that the future is unknowable.  For if the future is capable of being known, not just believed, but known, then your will has 0 effect on what will be as it has already been in the known future state.  For when the future is the present, then the present is already the past.

 

Given that typical biblical christianity accords god with omniscience, meaning the future is already known, whatever "will" you think you're exerting is a mirage.

 

For over a decade I held the "well, God may know the future, but I don't, therefore I have free will from my point of view"  - in hindsight it's entirely untenable.  My childhood pastor took the middle road, denying god had absolute omniscience, but knew the ultimate outcome, not necessarily the path there.  Very similar to a rigged game.  The outcome is known, the participants believe they are playing to win, but in reality the score was decided before they set foot on the field.

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1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

No, for many reasons. 

 

 

 

I guess we're all robots. I'll stop feeling bad for being lazy. I couldnt help myself! 

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2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I guess the question is:  Is the free will that we recognize/describe, is it absolute.  If not, why not.

Hi Edgarcito,

 

In science free-will is debatable. For that reason it cannot be described as absolute. As you know according to Christianity, which of course I don't believe, one has God-granted free will.  We have had free-will discussions here before. Fatalism is not a good philosophy at all IMO. Whether free-will exists in its strictest sense or not, I don't think matters. But I believe everyone should lead their life as if free-will does exist.

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2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I need a mulligan. 

 

I prefer the pies.

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Edgarcito,

 

I don't know if this will help, but I think it needs saying.

 

 

Even if Adam and Eve did have what we might call absolute free will before they disobeyed god, what does that matter to us, today?

 

According to scripture every human is descended from them and so everyone is NOT in the same innocent state they were in before they sinned.

 

Therefore, nobody has absolute free will any more.

 

That state of innocence died when they sinned.

 

So, scripture itself is telling us that we don't have absolute free will.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I guess the question is:  Is the free will that we recognize/describe, is it absolute.  If not, why not.

 

Can you define what you are calling absolute free will?

 

Generally I will say under any worldview that no it doesn't exist, but that depends on what a person means by "absolute free will".

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32 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Can you define what you are calling absolute free will?

 

Generally I will say under any worldview that no it doesn't exist, but that depends on what a person means by "absolute free will".

 

If a definition is given for free will, doesn't that create limitations in free thought? And don't we think based on everything we've learned and experienced, which means our yes or no answer has already been influenced by other people?

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4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Here's my off the cuff thought.  I believe yes, there exists absolute free will in the ability to make a yes/no decision in itself....i.e. no ramifications, no consequences, no considerations, just yes or no.  Then the question for me is does my body possess innate bias.

 

Consider replacing (or supplementing) your use of the term "innate bias" with "conscious or unconscious coercion".

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