Richard Dawkins creates a storm with a Tweet

[mwc]

     Since I like to wade into minefields, perhaps Dawkins was concerned less with the hypocrisy and more with the concept of fluidity?  Since gender is now considered a more fluid concept (even though I struggle with it myself since I don't happen to entertain those thoughts or feelings), then, for example, race, as a concept, should also be seen as more fluid?  So the hypocrisy that people are focusing on is really not important except to say, not that if you feel you are of a certain thing then you are, but that we need to rethink how we think of some of these age old concepts and go from there.  That we need to shift, or update our definitions and ideas, to match our updated knowledge.  Our modern ideas of race may well be an outdated concept in this respect (especially considering they're rooted in colonialism).

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

8 hours ago, mwc said:

      Our modern ideas of race may well be an outdated concept in this respect (especially considering they're rooted in colonialism).

 

          mwc

 

 

DNA testing has become popular and has been surprising people about what one word label they thought they were or should now call themselves.

[ConsiderTheSource]

On 4/25/2021 at 6:28 AM, Fuego said:

because everyone has "the right" opinion and are too willing to scream it at me.

Yep.  It is now mostly, if now nearly completely, defend what I believe, and not seek out what is true.

 

No real point to engage, unless they are hurting those I care about with promoted ugly social norms, or laws that make those I care about "less than".

[Moonobserver]

"Some men *choose* to identify as women, and some women *choose* to identify as men."

 

Not to play Fundamentalist's Advocate here, but would any of us here expect ourselves to cut the same generous slack to a conservative Christian who uttered the exact same sentence? I think it's worth taking an extra moment to look hard into the mirror and really ask ourselves.

[florduh]

39 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

"Some men *choose* to identify as women, and some women *choose* to identify as men."

 

Not to play Fundamentalist's Advocate here, but would any of us here expect ourselves to cut the same generous slack to a conservative Christian who uttered the exact same sentence? I think it's worth taking an extra moment to look hard into the mirror and really ask ourselves.

How is it not choosing? Even today some still choose to retain their career and family over an extreme "coming out." Ideally, everyone should be whomever they want to be without repercussions, but it seems we all have choices to make and compromises to live with. Your choice.

[Moonobserver]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

How is it not choosing? Even today some still choose to retain their career and family over an extreme "coming out." Ideally, everyone should be whomever they want to be without repercussions, but it seems we all have choices to make and compromises to live with. Your choice.

True enough, but I was asking if our judgement of the statement might be colored by the source.

[florduh]

2 minutes ago, Moonobserver said:

True enough, but I was asking if our judgement of the statement might be colored by the source.

And that's how I answered, "no."

[Joshpantera]

 

1 hour ago, florduh said:

How is it not choosing? Even today some still choose to retain their career and family over an extreme "coming out." Ideally, everyone should be whomever they want to be without repercussions, but it seems we all have choices to make and compromises to live with. Your choice.

 

Same with Rachael. She chose to present herself as black because subjectively she thinks of herself as black. People lost their shit over it. She apparently doesn't have the right to choose a different racial identity. 

 

Meanwhile, Jenner is woman of the year??????

 

Monstrous double standards at play. Do these same people that deny that sex change or alteration is a choice also deny that Rachael making herself black was a choice as well??????

 

She had NO choice in it, she was born with racial dysphoria and never chose to want to be black?????

 

Rachael was granted no such grace by the woke mob. Which look like little more than the vulgar ignorant masses of Alexandria in today's world........

[◊ Krowb ◊]

43 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

She had NO choice in it, she was born with racial dysphoria and never chose to want to be black?????

 

I may regret wading into this minefield, but I must quibble with the Dolezal position.  Blackness is a cultural thing.  Sure there are extremely slight genetic differences between the races, but those differences do not naturally manifest as cultural differences.  Because these genetic differences manifest themselves as fairly visually distinct, we've chosen to create identities around them and these "racial" identities are always shifting.  I have fraternity brothers who are African, African-American, Pakistani, Indian, Chinese, and Taiwanese (there's a fun nugget to chew on).  They are all as white culturally as one could possibly be. Their skin color is black, but as one of them liked to point out, "some people are left-handed, what's your point?" Dolezal crossed a cultural barrier where she was not wanted and via means of deceit.  I'm not sure how far the difference carries, but I do see a distinction between the two.

[Wertbag]

8 hours ago, Krowb said:

Dolezal crossed a cultural barrier where she was not wanted and via means of deceit

But whether the dysphoria is related to weight, sex, race or culture, shouldn't it all fall within the same mental illness?

 

We can't look for logic in mental illness, it is by definition when something is against reality. For example when I was young I had doggo-phobia. I would get an adrenaline burst just seeing a dog, my heart would start racing and I'd break out in a sweat. It made no difference what size dog, I got the same response from a chihuahua that posed no physical threat to me. I could consciously say to myself there is nothing to be afraid of and yet my auto-brain would always ignore me. Completely illogical and yet unavoidable. I would see believing yourself to be another race is similar in that it makes no sense but it doesn't have to in order to be something we should be providing mental health support for. 

[Joshpantera]

19 hours ago, Krowb said:

Dolezal crossed a cultural barrier where she was not wanted and via means of deceit.  I'm not sure how far the difference carries, but I do see a distinction between the two.

 

How about people cheering on Bruce Jenner? Is that fair to females if Bruce Jenner is named woman of the year? Or to hold some office available to females? By way of deceit? It's deceitful to try and pass him off as a woman. It's not true, he doesn't have the DNA of a woman. He's not, regardless of his subjective based fantasies. Or the subjective group fantasies of those cheering him on. 

 

He wants to be a woman within his mind, and Rachael wants to be black within her mind. Both are deceitful and incorrect objectively, factually. It's fantasy world stuff. But one is being accused of deceit. Would Bruce tell people who didn't recognize him, 'i'm not really a woman, I'm a man, but humor me and play along?' Rachael didn't do that either. They both want people to recognize them as something that they are really aren't. To reinforce or to satisfy as subjective based fantasy. 

 

That's where biologist Richard Dawkins seems to find interest. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

12 hours ago, Wertbag said:

But whether the dysphoria is related to weight, sex, race or culture, shouldn't it all fall within the same mental illness?

 

 

You'd think it should. Thinking your're fat when you're skinny or vise versa. Thinking you're black when you're white. Thinking your male when you're female. Hell, thinking you're Kiwi when you're Yank! 

 

What if I went around speaking to everyone in an Australian accent? And kept it going. Because I stopped identifying as south eastern American and took up a new, foreign identity. That may come off as offensive to Aussies. But if I was serious, and really took on the subjective belief that I'm from Australia and took up an Australian accent, I'd be of the same mental condition as Bruce Jenner, right? And just as deceitful as both I would assume. Because of portraying something that isn't factually correct.  I'm not really from Australia. Even though my grandmother did immigrate to the US from Australia. 

[midniterider]

16 hours ago, Moonobserver said:

"Some men *choose* to identify as women, and some women *choose* to identify as men."

 

Not to play Fundamentalist's Advocate here, but would any of us here expect ourselves to cut the same generous slack to a conservative Christian who uttered the exact same sentence? I think it's worth taking an extra moment to look hard into the mirror and really ask ourselves.

 

I think my first reaction to Pat Robertson or Franklin Graham saying the same sentence would be "bite me". But that's not the only thing they would say. That sentence above would come with, "In the book of blah blah , God clearly states this is an abomination". And if Pat Robertson's quote became a thread here, well I still have the same opinion about 'choice' regardless. As far as politics goes, I dont automatically side with the liberals in every case. If I did that I'd be a congressman.  The other thing is Dawkins is not my hero. He is an outspoken proponent for atheism and kind of annoying sometimes. I didnt care for his book.  He's fun to watch now and then on Youtube, but he's not my hero. Same goes for Dillahunty.  

[florduh]

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I think my first reaction to Pat Robertson or Franklin Graham saying the same sentence would be "bite me". But that's not the only thing they would say. That sentence above would come with, "In the book of blah blah , God clearly states this is an abomination". And if Pat Robertson's quote became a thread here, well I still have the same opinion about 'choice' regardless. As far as politics goes, I dont automatically side with the liberals in every case. If I did that I'd be a congressman.  The other thing is Dawkins is not my hero. He is an outspoken proponent for atheism and kind of annoying sometimes. I didnt care for his book.  He's fun to watch now and then on Youtube, but he's not my hero. Same goes for Dillahunty.  

I think there is some difference depending on who makes that "choice" comment. We can admit when a choice is a choice, and it's neutral observation, without attaching extras like sin, abomination and all that. 

[Orbit]

Intersexed and biologically sex-ambiguous people exist, and it's not a "choice". To end up as cisgender, 4 things have to match: your chromosomes, your hormones, your anatomy, and your brain structure. Human biology being what it is, these things don't line up in about 2% of the population. What if you have XXY chromosomes? Or XYY? What if your hormones develop in a different direction than your anatomy? The notion of choice in these cases is wrongheaded. We can't handle the ambiguity that nature provides, and we label the result "mental illness".

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, Orbit said:

Human biology being what it is, these things don't line up in about 2% of the population. What if you have XXY chromosomes? Or XYY? What if your hormones develop in a different direction than your anatomy? The notion of choice in these cases is wrongheaded. We can't handle the ambiguity that nature provides, and we label the result "mental illness".

 

https://www.healthline.com/health/xyy-syndrome

 

I don't see gender dysphoria listed as a symptom of having XYY chromosomes. 

 

https://www.webmd.com/men/klinefelter-syndrome

 

Nothing listed here about gender dysphoria associated with XXY chromosomes. 

 

These examples are of males born with a penis. With three chromosomes. They are acknowledged as male. Because of the Y chromosome, right? 

 

Richard Dawkins the famous biologist must have made his statement in full knowledge of the existence of both syndromes, nevertheless making his statement about choices anyways. And by the looks of things that's probably because neither example have any bearing on the issue of gender dysphoria to begin with. 

 

Furthermore, the article below suggests otherwise: 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6083207/

 

Purpose: The presence of a disorder of sexual development (DSD) acts as a diagnostic specifier for gender dysphoria (GD) under DSM-5, while the International Classification of Diseases (ICD)-10 specifically states that its equivalent diagnosis, gender identity disorder (GID), must not be the result of a chromosomal abnormality. For these reasons, routine karyotyping has been previously advocated in the clinical work-up of children and adolescents with suspected GD or GID. However, the utility of such testing remains unclear.

 

Conclusion

Routine molecular karyotyping of 128 children and adolescents presenting with suspected GD failed to detect any occult DSD and indicated that the rate of CNVs was similar to that of the general population. We therefore suggest that molecular karyotyping has minimal clinical utility in the routine management of GD.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Is it possible to be biologically an adult but identify as an adulteress?

[Myrkhoos]

Well , 2 things.1. Who and why and when and when decides "health" ? And mental health especially? It seems a very culture specific thing. Although "normal" from norm means that it is a greater variation from the norm. I don't necessarily trust psychiatrists that much to decide that.

          2. Some ppl just seem, for different reasons, to enjoy violence.

       Separate question for trans issue. Are there not any therapies, of all sorts, that can help such a person accept their body? Is modifying the body the only option? Can you not modify the brain/hormones/psyche?

    This idea of the "true self" is really weird seeing as the self modifies constantly anyway. Why is the true self of a trans person the other gender? 

      The object of a therapy is mainly resolving pain, as quick and easy as possible. It seems to me that if a trans person could accept their bodies, that would be easier than such major body surgery. I mean if you could take a pill that would make the dysphoria dissapear, would you take it? Or have you grown to think that that is your "identity" ? I am not trying to disparage anyone, legitimate question. I have the same question for gay people. If there really was a working way to make them straight, with ease and no side effects, would you do it? Leaving the side the question of what psychiatry thinks of homosexuality. This question of "identity" is truly at the crux of such issues, isn't it?

       

          

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 4/25/2021 at 9:00 PM, Joshpantera said:

What do you think? Was it a brazen lie for Rachael to express her racial dysphoria and self identify as a black women? And follow her inner beliefs to the NAACP? Or is it true that if she identifies as black then that makes her in all honesty, black?

 

I never had an opinion either way on her, but as has been pointed out in this thread, it looks like she's been shown to be dishonest and untrustworthy. I have no way of knowing what's really going on with her, but I'm not aware of a "race dysphoria" common to a portion of the population. On the other hand, we do know that there is "gender dysphoria" that affects a lot of people, and I have close personal experience with one of them.

 

As a cisgender man myself, I could not force myself to act, think, look, and feel like a woman. It's simply impossible. If my same brain had been born trapped in a female body and I had society demanding that I act, think, look and feel like a female, there is absolutely no way that I could do it. It would be impossible for me, and the constant badgering from society to try to get me to conform to that would be extremely torturous and drive me into a deep depression. There is simply no way around that fact. That is what the transphobic society is doing to transgender people.

[★ Citsonga ★]

6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

 Separate question for trans issue. Are there not any therapies, of all sorts, that can help such a person accept their body? Is modifying the body the only option?

 

That is definitely not the only option. People are required to go through a lot of therapy sessions before an endocrinologist will proceed with gender reassignment. That is precisely because therapists do not automatically recommend gender reassignment to everyone seeking help. They go through a rigorous evaluation to make a medical determination of the situation, based on whether or not the individual is really dealing with gender dysphoria and will never be comfortable with their original gender assignment.

 

6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I mean if you could take a pill that would make the dysphoria dissapear, would you take it?

 

There's no doubt that if there was such a thing, many would take it. It would certainly be a lot easier than the hell they have to deal with.

[Myrkhoos]

1 hour ago, Citsonga said:

 

 

As a cisgender man myself, I could not force myself to act, think, look, and feel like a woman. It's simply impossible. If my same brain had been born trapped in a female body and I had society demanding that I act, think, look and feel like a female, there is absolutely no way that I could do it. It would be impossible for me, and the constant badgering from society to try to get me to conform to that would be extremely torturous and drive me into a deep depression. There is simply no way around that fact. That is what the transphobic society is doing to transgender people.

I don't think ALL of THAT is impossible. I mean 1 . There is no generic "think" or "feel" "act"  like a woman. That sounds a little stereotypical. 2. Actors learn to act and look like other people all of the time so that is certaintly possible to an certain level. We all portray a mask to other people anyway.

      However, I am curious. Does a trans person, for example, a woman to man, "feels" she has a penis? Like some phantom limb? Or does a man to woman that she has breasts? I mean does a trans person actually feel her body? Like if I reach a males chest she feels her "breasts" touched?

      By the way the high suicide could be there bk, you know, you are dealing with a disturbind mind-reality incoherence. So that in itself is enough either as effect or cause to cause someone suicidal thoughts without any external influence.

      I actually imagine of that my entire personality was transfered to a woman's body, WITH full perception of my body , I would, with training, get the hang of it. However, the situation woukd be different if I did not have perception of the body, be that female or an animal, an alien. Like if I could feel the vagina and feel there is a penis there. I could not even urinate properly.

    

[Myrkhoos]

5 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

 

 

Sorry, mistake. Anyway, my sympathy to anyone suffering from this. It seems painful to say the least.

[Myrkhoos]

1 hour ago, Citsonga said:

 

That is definitely not the only option. People are required to go through a lot of therapy sessions before an endocrinologist will proceed with gender reassignment. That is precisely because therapists do not automatically recommend gender reassignment to everyone seeking help. They go through a rigorous evaluation to make a medical determination of the situation, based on whether or not the individual is really dealing with gender dysphoria and will never be comfortable with their original gender assignment.

 

 

There's no doubt that if there was such a thing, many would take it. It would certainly be a lot easier than the hell they have to deal with.

Hmm, thanks for info. Definetly should read about this more. Seems like a big modern issue.

[Myrkhoos]

https://youtube.com/channel/UCnEuIogVV2Mv6Q1a3nHIRsQ.       

 

 

Some video about identity here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said:

1 . There is no generic "think" or "feel" "act"  like a woman. That sounds a little stereotypical.

 

Indeed there's a bell curve, but I'm talking about the range considered acceptable by the general siciety that mocks the LGBT community.

 

1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said:

2. Actors learn to act and look like other people all of the time so that is certaintly possible to an certain level.

 

Sorry, but that comparison is completely illogical. Choosing to act a part is completely different from being pressured to act a part you don't want for everyone at all times, never getting to be your true self but always having to present an unwanted persona that feels completely wrong. 

 

I don't have time for anything further at the moment. I may be back when time permits.