Getting Back Into Wicca/Witchcraft

[florduh]

On 5/11/2021 at 10:20 PM, Freed said:

My life. I'm an embarrassment. Honestly. 

 

"Another idiot who thinks they actually know me. Why do all you idiots not understand me? How am I that hard to understand? Dumb ass. Now I remember why I don't like atheists. You are so annoying. You think you're so mature and intelligent. Instead you're stupid. As for monthly donations. I'm not donating. You idiots complain about churches receiving tithes then you turn around and beg for donations. Figures. Fuck you."

 

So what are we to make of your recurring self effacing remarks and self pity? What should we make of your vicious attack on someone you wrongly assume is an atheist, just because he called you on it? Is that the makings of a witch? Is it? No witches I know act like that. We can only know you by what you say here.

 

 

[Freed]

I don't want your pity. I'm not throwing a pity party. You just misunderstood me. If we knew each other in person you would realize that. 

[Freed]

Answering a question honestly does not equal wanting pity. FlorDUH.

[midniterider]

So have you jumped back into Wicca? 

[Freed]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

So have you jumped back into Wicca? 

No not yet. Hopefully soon.

 

[Joshpantera]

Which ever atheists are here at this site, are by default, not life long atheists. It's believers who at some point stopped believing.

 

There's a difference in perspective and insights between the two types of atheists in question. Mostly being that we do know and understand exactly what goes into the experience of believing. But we also have the experience of ceasing belief as well. It's something of a well rounded perspective. It's people who are qualified to speak about both perspectives from an intellectually honest platform. 

 

On 5/22/2021 at 9:33 PM, florduh said:

"Another idiot who thinks they actually know me. Why do all you idiots not understand me? How am I that hard to understand? Dumb ass. Now I remember why I don't like atheists. You are so annoying. You think you're so mature and intelligent. Instead you're stupid. As for monthly donations. I'm not donating. You idiots complain about churches receiving tithes then you turn around and beg for donations. Figures. Fuck you."

 

She's talking here as if this is the Richard Dawkins forums or something, which, obviously it isn't. And for the record, as a community we're open to ex christian spirituality. Wicca or whatever. Atheist's may not always be mature, but more often than not they come with intelligence. They don't believe because they are too intelligent to simply believe some claim at face value with no hard convincing evidence. What's wrong with that? Why should people have to believe anything someone claims just because they claimed it? Consider that for a moment, @Freed 

 

You should try and learn to realize that you're free to believe whatever you want. But if you believe something that isn't well proven then at least know and understand the position that you're taking for what it is - something not provable. Something that you can not prove to others. Proving it is technically off the table in most cases. 

 

If you try to prove something that isn't provable you'll just be beating your head against a wall. You'll never win. You're swimming against a current. Maybe consider owning your thing, doing what you like doing, minus the trying to argue it with atheists and prove to everyone aspect. Then you won't be frustrated and yelling "fuck you" at people and all of the above. 

 

Do the witchcraft. Do what you want to do. Just keep in mind that you're doing things that are outside of your ability to prove to others. It doesn't have to be frustrating. You can change all of that by simply changing your approach and perspective. 

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Do the witchcraft. Do what you want to do. Just keep in mind that you're doing things that are outside of your ability to prove to others. It doesn't have to be frustrating. You can change all of that by simply changing your approach and perspective. 

 

A theistic mindset that is absent of facts is not an attack on atheists. 

An atheistic mindset that is grounded in facts is not an attack on theists. 

 

Now if I can only remember to put that into practice.

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

A theistic mindset that is absent of facts is not an attack on atheists. 

An atheistic mindset that is grounded in facts is not an attack on theists. 

 

Now if I can only remember to put that into practice.

 

We could all stand to learn that lesson. As a community we really should be more tolerant of the mix of theistic and atheistic ex christians. 

 

 

[florduh]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

We could all stand to learn that lesson. As a community we really should be more tolerant of the mix of theistic and atheistic ex christians. 

 

 

But if the theistic person happens to be a Christian we can tear him/her a new one, is that how it works? I guess all unfounded beliefs but one are to be respected.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, florduh said:

But if the theistic person happens to be a Christian we can tear him/her a new one, is that how it works? I guess all unfounded beliefs but one are to be respected.

If an ex-christian christian comes in here, I'll certainly tip my hat to them.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

But if the theistic person happens to be a Christian we can tear him/her a new one, is that how it works? I guess all unfounded beliefs but one are to be respected.

 

"Although Ex-Christian.net has no particular quarrel with deists, pagans, Buddhists, and other forms of non-evangelical spiritual thinkers, at times discussions in other sections of this site do have a tendency to create the impression that "ex-Christian" automatically means "atheist." The reality is, ex-Christian only means ex-Christian. Nothing else is implied by the term.

 

In this one area of Ex-Christian.net, each individual who has adopted an alternative spiritual expression should feel encouraged to freely express any experiences, thoughts, or opinions without fear of being brow beaten, harshly criticized, or condemned."

 

So yes. You are correct. 

 

I'm a half-assed pagan but I dont care if anyone else is. Non-evangelical appears to be the key word here. 

[florduh]

8 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

"Although Ex-Christian.net has no particular quarrel with deists, pagans, Buddhists, and other forms of non-evangelical spiritual thinkers, at times discussions in other sections of this site do have a tendency to create the impression that "ex-Christian" automatically means "atheist." The reality is, ex-Christian only means ex-Christian. Nothing else is implied by the term.

 

In this one area of Ex-Christian.net, each individual who has adopted an alternative spiritual expression should feel encouraged to freely express any experiences, thoughts, or opinions without fear of being brow beaten, harshly criticized, or condemned."

 

So yes. You are correct. 

 

I'm a half-assed pagan but I dont care if anyone else is. Non-evangelical appears to be the key word here. 

It seems odd and a bit disingenuous to me that we can demand evidence and justification for beliefs from only one religion and no others. Whether they proselytize or not is irrelevant to demonstrating the validity of a belief. It's always puzzled me. Am I the only one who sees it this way?

 

[Joshpantera]

56 minutes ago, florduh said:

It seems odd and a bit disingenuous to me that we can demand evidence and justification for beliefs from only one religion and no others. Whether they proselytize or not is irrelevant to demonstrating the validity of a belief. It's always puzzled me. Am I the only one who sees it this way?

 

 

Only in this section as I understand it. Because it's laid out to be a place not to demand evidence for non-christian beliefs. I'm pretty sure anywhere else criticism of other religions is open to discussion. If wicca made it's way to the den then it would be on the chopping block for sure. 

 

11 hours ago, florduh said:

But if the theistic person happens to be a Christian we can tear him/her a new one, is that how it works? I guess all unfounded beliefs but one are to be respected.

 

I only think it works like that were the spirituality section is concerned. A laid back attitude towards spiritual discussion here, anywhere else cause for a debate pretty much. 

 

But to midnite's point, it's a matter of trying to get people to understand that they don't have to fly off the handle unnecessarily over minor issues. Just because atheists don't believe claims at face value isn't cause for flying off the handle. And neither is someone simply toying around with some witchcraft. So what? It's just one of those things that isn't that big a deal. 

 

But I do understand that if someone looks to be hopelessly deluded over some issue, it makes sense to try and help them with the problem. But often times with this ex christian spiritual stuff, they aren't really heavily deluded. They're just fooling around with stuff. For the fun of it. 

 

 

 

[florduh]

54 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

They're just fooling around with stuff. For the fun of it. 

I have seen mostly the other kind, but if they are actually just "fooling around" then they couldn't take offense at pertinent questions. I fool around!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Yeah, like the others have said, this forum is a safe space for ex-christians to explore and express other forms of spirituality and/or beliefs.  Many of us, fortunately,  in my opinion, were able to simply put gods and religion down and walk away from it entirely.  But there are others who need to replace their former beliefs with something else.  They feel the need to fill that "god shaped hole," as it were.  I suppose Dave foresaw that some would have that need and set up this forum as a way of helping them.   

 

Moreover, as agnostics, atheists, apatheist, or general apostates, it's not in our purview to proselytize or convince others to adopt our way of thinking.  That's for the religious folk to do; and there's a place for it in The Lion's Den.  

[midniterider]

The purpose of this subforum is to allow the free exchange of ex-Christian spiritual ideas. That's how it operates. And so people 'ought' to follow the guidelines regardless of their personal convictions. If you come to this sub and say, "Those gnomes you believe in are nonsense!!", then the gnome believer may chastise you about it. They may value gnomes the way someone else values logic and evidence. 

 

The purpose of a church is to worship Jesus. If you walk into a church on Sunday and demand proof of God, and point out bible contradictions, you will get tossed out of the building. That venue has a specific purpose and you are violating it. Even if every single one of those goofballs need to be Hitchslapped with some critical thinking.  

 

If someone walks into an atheist meetup and whips out the bible and loudly prays and condemns those darn non-believers then they have the right to ask the Christian to leave. Even if the Christian 'knows' in his heart that these godless people are under Satan's influence. 

 

So I have a question: Do those who live by logic, reason, critical thinking always do what is logical or reasonable? Logic says it is unhealthy to smoke, eat cheeseburgers and processed sugar. That new car was a bit over budget but damn it is fun to drive! 

 

What's worse, eating a cheeseburger or talking to an invisible gnome?

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

22 minutes ago, midniterider said:

The purpose of this subforum is to allow the free exchange of ex-Christian spiritual ideas. That's how it operates. And so people 'ought' to follow the guidelines regardless of their personal convictions. If you come to this sub and say, "Those gnomes you believe in are nonsense!!", then the gnome believer may chastise you about it. They may value gnomes the way someone else values logic and evidence. 

 

The purpose of a church is to worship Jesus. If you walk into a church on Sunday and demand proof of God, and point out bible contradictions, you will get tossed out of the building. That venue has a specific purpose and you are violating it. Even if every single one of those goofballs need to be Hitchslapped with some critical thinking.  

 

If someone walks into an atheist meetup and whips out the bible and loudly prays and condemns those darn non-believers then they have the right to ask the Christian to leave. Even if the Christian 'knows' in his heart that these godless people are under Satan's influence. 

 

So I have a question: Do those who live by logic, reason, critical thinking always do what is logical or reasonable? Logic says it is unhealthy to smoke, eat cheeseburgers and processed sugar. That new car was a bit over budget but damn it is fun to drive! 

 

What's worse, eating a cheeseburger or talking to an invisible gnome?

 

 

Well, you have to kill an animal in order to get a cheeseburger so I thinks, ethically speaking, the gnome wins. However it does depend on what you talk with him. Maybe he is a nazi gnome.

[midniterider]

37 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

Well, you have to kill an animal in order to get a cheeseburger so I thinks, ethically speaking, the gnome wins. However it does depend on what you talk with him. Maybe he is a nazi gnome.

 

No gnomes were harmed in this thread. lol. 

 

I think we can tell by the volume of posts in this subforum that most ex-Christian theists or quasi-theists go elsewhere to discuss spirituality. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I'm glad there is a "safe zone" for those that want to explore other spiritualities on this site. Granted I contemplate spirituality myself. But to me, spirituality doesn't need to be linked to a God. I think at the very least we had a good lesson in non-god based spirituality when we watched the debate between @Edgarcito and @Joshpantera 

 

      I was just talking to @TABA the other day about my personal thoughts on meditation and spirituality. There are 5 points of the pentagram.  Each representing a different natural element. Earth, fire, air, water, and spirit. For me just reflecting on those five wiccan elements knowing what I know now is cause for amazement. 

     We are made of "essentially" earth, we eat the fruits of the earth, the earth is our home and without it we wouldn't exist. We are 75%+ water. We have to drink water to survive. Without water we would not exist. The air we breath provides oxygen for our bodies that without it we would die and cease to exist. Fire has been instrumental in our evolution, for hundreds of thousands of years we have used it for warmth, to cook, to work Metals, to drive the engines in our modern world, but most importantly our sun is just a big ball of fire that keeps our planet at the perfect temperature for life to exist on this beautiful piece of space dust we call home. Lastly spirit. For me spirit is who we are, Our personalities, our likes, our dislikes, our values, our essence if you will. And it is that aspect of us that will live on in everyone we come in contact with even after we are gone. Because we have been granted this life we will never truly die. Even if our names are forgotten over the course of time. The impressions we made in our lifetime will last for the rest of human existence just as those from the past have coalesced to make us who we are. 

      I guess for me the pentagram has become a spiritual symbol again. But not like it is for a wiccan. So for me. When you strip all of the God and Goddess stuff away from wicca. It is a beautiful religion. While I will never be able to "worship" again, Praying to "X" deity. I can meditate and feel a connection to the universe reflecting on those five elements that make us who we are and realizing that we are all connected. From the beginning to the present and into the future. This is our 50-90 year window to be a part of life and make our mark.

      

For me this is a more beautiful realization than a heaven after life with mansions, gold streets, etc. It makes you want to be a better person today so that you leave behind a good impression and not a bad one that will live on in others. Not to mention the three fold law is just a good rule of thumb. Just like the golden rule is. I dont think anybody could argue that we shouldn't treat others like we would like to be treated. 

[florduh]

Let's not continue to ignore the fact that spirituality is one thing but worshiping imaginary deities who grant your wishes is quite another. I have no beef with the spiritual aspect of life and I suspect virtually everyone experiences or acknowledges something that could be called spiritual, but I just think any actual religion with gods and magic spells should be held to the same reasonable standards that Christianity is. I see a double standard, that's all. Please, carry on and I'll shut up.

[midniterider]

6 minutes ago, florduh said:

Let's not continue to ignore the fact that spirituality is one thing but worshiping imaginary deities who grant your wishes is quite another. I have no beef with the spiritual aspect of life and I suspect virtually everyone experiences or acknowledges something that could be called spiritual, but I just think any actual religion with gods and magic spells should be held to the same reasonable standards that Christianity is. I see a double standard, that's all. Please, carry on and I'll shut up.

 

What is spirituality?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 minutes ago, florduh said:

Let's not continue to ignore the fact that spirituality is one thing but worshiping imaginary deities who grant your wishes is quite another. I have no beef with the spiritual aspect of life and I suspect virtually everyone experiences or acknowledges something that could be called spiritual, but I just think any actual religion with gods and magic spells should be held to the same reasonable standards that Christianity is. I see a double standard, that's all. Please, carry on and I'll shut up.

I agree 100% if it happens outside this sub-forum. This forum is specifically for those exchristians that want to delve into other spiritual possibilities.

 

Now if they take that and start trying to proselytize converts for Odin. We would probably have to move that over to a debate arena and tear the religion apart showing how it was all made up just as the Bible was. As far as I know that hasn't happened yet has it? You've been around here a lot longer than me. Maybe it has. 

 

I can't imagine worshipping some imaginary man made God. But if someone who flees Christianity feels at peace doing so. Its not for me to judge them. Just as its not for me to judge those that feel compelled to go back to Christianity. Each person is different and goes through a different process. Whats good for you and I may not be good for them. I'd hate to make someone feel anymore alone after losing faith in Christianity by bashing their "new found" faith. Because in all reality, eventually they will probably come to the same conclusion about that faith as well. 

[florduh]

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

What is spirituality?

A sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

I see a double standard, that's all.

Is it a double standard that many recovering alcoholics get themselves on a "marijuana maintenance" program, or that some AA groups openly acknowledge and even unofficially encourage this as a substitute for the much more destructive addiction?  Live and let live, man.