Edgarcito Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 No, Walter, my views on a Christian's Spiritual journey are subjective to the believer.......specifically because we don't know the path God has for a person to hopefully bring them to godliness. Science says we are objectively subjective, and spirituality is as well. But by your definition, not mine, I'm supposed to blow rainbows out of my butt for humanity's sake. More than one way to skin a cat Walter. What a shallow naive view you possess... I'd have more Grace for you Walter, but you are not a nice person.....and I don't say that about many folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 Well, that's not what you claimed when you were End3, Edgarcito. It seems like you've shifted your position re scripture. My bad. But No, science doesn't say that we objectively subjective. (Whatever that means.) That's an Edgarcitoism. Science says no such thing. But hey, you've made the claim that science says this, so why not support that with a citation from a reputable scientific source? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 10, 2021 Author Share Posted May 10, 2021 No, you show me where I stated that previously. Secondly, at any given instant none of us will never ever ever ever be the same. Science says so, it’s self evident to a fifth grader... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No, you show me where I stated that previously. Secondly, at any given instant none of us will never ever ever ever be the same. Science says so, it’s self evident to a fifth grader... Dealing with the second thing first, if we are never the same from instant to instant, how is that you remember that you are a Texan? That you work in the field of chemistry? That you are divorced? That you have children? Surely all of these memories should be instantly swept away as you completely change from instant to instant? Dealing with the first thing second, the Search function is giving me some problems. Give me a while and I'll have the quote. Fyi Ed, I'm not entirely sure that the RedneckProfessor is going to be happy with our 'bickering' as he's called it in the past. So, I'm going to bow out now and wait for you and Josh to resume your debate. The quote will follow in good time. Patience. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 Ok Edgarcito, here's where you said, as End3, that you believed the bible to be god's inerrant word. https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/71611-what-should-we-expect-during-a-time-of-grace/page/7/ Guest end3 Guests Posted February 24, 2016 On 2/24/2016 at 10:07 PM, duderonomy said: End3, you're really fired up in this thread. Did you just finish a John Hagee book or something? Man, you're a hoot sometimes. BTW, did you ever answer BAA's questio where he asked if you believe the Bible is inerrant and etc? I'd like to know too. All you have on your side is the opinions of sinners with decietfully wicked hearts and the Bible. So tell us, is it perfect and complete and inerrant in your humble opinion or not? That's a pretty simple yes or no question. If you answered it, I missed it. I faithfully consider the Bible inerrant. -------------------------------------------------------- Edgarcito, Recently someone did something good and kind for me and I'm going to take their help to heart and change the way I interact with you. What this should mean is that I'm going to think twice and give myself time before deciding to respond to something you've written. I say "should" because I'm only human and therefore liable to waver in my resolve. Time will tell. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 11, 2021 Author Share Posted May 11, 2021 I appreciate the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 Walter, I never made the claim that my Spirituality was superior. Never. He was the one that said his was, and then they set up the debate and ADDED that I was going to demonstrate Christian superiority. That was never my intent. What would be interesting at this point would be to compare the assigned values of each adopted/evolved spirituality, regarding the existence of humanity, the earth, and how that compares to the Christian concept and see if Christianity holds any water....thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Walter, I never made the claim that my Spirituality was superior. Never. He was the one that said his was, and then they set up the debate and ADDED that I was going to demonstrate Christian superiority. That was never my intent. What would be interesting at this point would be to compare the assigned values of each adopted/evolved spirituality, regarding the existence of humanity, the earth, and how that compares to the Christian concept and see if Christianity holds any water....thx. Ok Edgarcito. I read you loud and clear. But if it was never your intention to demonstrate that your spirituality is superior to Josh's, does that mean you're only in this debate to knock down everything Josh says? Also, the idea of assigning values won't go anywhere because its unlikely that you and Josh could ever agree on what values to assign to a given point under discussion. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 They are adopted philosophies I gather through the centuries. He is free to adopt and practice whatever he thinks is right. But from his analogy, it's just that, adopted. Unless he can demonstrate otherwise. His "superiority" is no better than the Christian "Betty Better than you". No value. This whole exercise has given me rise to consider what disturbance in space I would like to make, if it even makes a difference. I think you understand.....or reasonably sure you do. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 Ok Edgarcito. Employing the level playing field idea, you are just as free as Josh to adopt and practice whatever you think is right. And neither of you can demonstrate otherwise. Which makes me wonder, if you can't demonstrate any difference between your chosen spiritual model (Christianity) and any other, why hold to it? Any model would seem to be just as good as any other and holding to a given one is just a matter of personal choice. Which means that you have no grounds for knocking down Josh's model. Other than personal choice. His model is just as viable as yours. It's a level playing field. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 42 minutes ago, WalterP said: Ok Edgarcito. Employing the level playing field idea, you are just as free as Josh to adopt and practice whatever you think is right. And neither of you can demonstrate otherwise. Which makes me wonder, if you can't demonstrate any difference between your chosen spiritual model (Christianity) and any other, why hold to it? Any model would seem to be just as good as any other and holding to a given one is just a matter of personal choice. Which means that you have no grounds for knocking down Josh's model. Other than personal choice. His model is just as viable as yours. It's a level playing field. Thank you. Walter. I was raised by a condescending PhD chemist Walter. A lot of these people invoke my anger towards that attitude. Josh's argument doesn't hold water yet he keeps demanding that it's superior. Almost the perfect storm from my childhood. So I swing my sword. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: I was raised by a condescending PhD chemist Walter. A lot of these people invoke my anger towards that attitude. Josh's argument doesn't hold water yet he keeps demanding that he is superior. Almost the perfect storm from my childhood. So I swing my sword. Hope that helps. Hmmm... Surely aren't these very circumstances the perfect opportunity for you to demonstrate the superiority of your Christian spirituality? That is, by not swinging the sword. Which is what the children of Christ's new covenant should do? By turning the other cheek? Just as Jesus exhorted his followers to do? Think about it for a moment, Edgarcito. In one stroke you could put Josh on the back foot, you could demonstrate Jesus Christ's spirit at work in your life and you could show us all how Christianity really works. How about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, WalterP said: Hmmm... Surely aren't these very circumstances the perfect opportunity for you to demonstrate the superiority of your Christian spirituality? That is, by not swinging the sword. Which is what the children of Christ's new covenant should do? By turning the other cheek? Just as Jesus exhorted his followers to do? Think about it for a moment, Edgarcito. In one stroke you could put Josh on the back foot, you could demonstrate Jesus Christ's spirit at work in your life and you could show us all how Christianity really works. How about it? I hear you. Seriously this morning I was just posting it as it ran through my head. I had no real intent but it seems rather apparent via the comments that people recognize that residual anger. To your point, yes I could, and my predicament demonstrates a need for grace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I hear you. Seriously this morning I was just posting it as it ran through my head. I had no real intent but it seems rather apparent via the comments that people recognize that residual anger. To your point, yes I could, and my predicament demonstrates a need for grace... I hear you, Edgarcito. I see that your predicament needs grace. But if you want to be blessed, doesn't the good book say, 'Give and you shall receive?' Maybe there's an abundance of heavenly grace just waiting to be bestowed upon you... ...providing that you give first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Just out of curiosity Edgarcito, your declared need for grace? Is it met by those feelings of connection you've described recently? Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, WalterP said: Just out of curiosity Edgarcito, your declared need for grace? Is it met by those feelings of connection you've described recently? Thank you. Walter. No sir....I had one time years ago where I felt the message was admonishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: No sir....I had one time years ago where I felt the message was admonishment. Then how do you think you might receive the grace that you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, WalterP said: Then how do you think you might receive the grace that you need? On faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: On faith So you aren't required to actually do anything other than to have faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 Faith without works is dead, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Just now, Edgarcito said: Faith without works is dead, right? Not exactly. Christianity is not a solitary enterprise, but a communal and interactive one. The Body of Christ has many members and not just one. If you cut yourself off from the rest of the body and then ask for His grace, then you are dictating the terms by which He must give his grace to you. Who is in charge here? You or God? God's terms for the giving of grace are communal and interactive, not singular and isolated. The Gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of Christ's Body (the Church) on Earth. The Fruit of the Spirit are bestowed upon those believers who help this to happen. You want grace and blessings from God? Then follow His ways and not your own. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, WalterP said: Not exactly. Christianity is not a solitary enterprise, but a communal and interactive one. The Body of Christ has many members and not just one. If you cut yourself off from the rest of the body and then ask for His grace, then you are dictating the terms by which He must give his grace to you. Who is in charge here? You or God? God's terms for the giving of grace are communal and interactive, not singular and isolated. The Gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of Christ's Body (the Church) on Earth. The Fruit of the Spirit are bestowed upon those believers who help this to happen. You want grace and blessings from God? Then follow His ways and not your own. Thank you. Walter. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Glad I could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted May 17, 2021 Author Share Posted May 17, 2021 Walter, it is by faith and will always be due to our limitations. But I hear you saying that Josh may declare superiority through his limited knowledge. That's a violation in the knowledge business. You knew that already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 54 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Walter, it is by faith and will always be due to our limitations. But I hear you saying that Josh may declare superiority through his limited knowledge. That's a violation in the knowledge business. You knew that already. Hello Edgarcito. Could you please cite where I said this? "But I hear you saying that Josh may declare superiority through his limited knowledge." I'm not saying that I didn't, but its getting late here and you have more hours available to find the quote than I do before sleepy bo-bo's. Btw, did you know that scientists, with all of their limitations, don't use faith but mathematical techniques to deal with the infinite? https://www.britannica.com/science/renormalization They cancel out the infinities in their calculations, leaving finite results that can be understood by the limited human mind. So, your claim that faith is the only way to the infinite really doesn't hold up. Oh yes! I've just remembered another way scientists deal with infinites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe This cancellation technique works for any kind of universe, finite or infinite. Please note that this is not a universe-from-nothing scenario. It simply means cancelling out the positive and negative energy values of any given universe to remove the infinites in the calculation. So, faith is of no help. But mathematics will do the job quite nicely, thank you. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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