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Semmelweis Reflex


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10 minutes ago, florduh said:

... Funny how most of the Christians who come to enlighten us poor slobs have a bigger ego than L. Ron Hubbard. Especially the ones who insist that they are not really Christians.

 

Egos...  can't live with 'em, can't live without them.

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1 hour ago, alreadyGone said:

 

If I recall correctly, his comment was "this site has got to be shut down!".

 

Yeah, he was going to bring an "army" of prayer warriors with him to shut us down.  Said army never materialized.  I guess they got lost somewhere between the slits.

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3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

An all knowing god would know dam well that by the 19th century some scholars would start realizing and writing about the massive lack of contemporary evidence for the life of jesus. Calling the entire historicity of the story into question and running forward into the 21st century with no possible resolve in sight. Due to the lack of evidence back then or lasting from then till now that could resolve the issue.

 

And simply make the evidence plain and irrefutable back then!!!

 

Make sure it lasts through time!!!

 

How about some contemporary jewish or roman court records that last???

 

Simple explanation, the stories are mostly if not complete myth and legend. No all-knowing god factors in at all, good or evil. And this is obvious when you consider that the bible starts out demonstrably false from the outset in Genesis 1....

I think it should be waaaaay more obviuous than some court records. I mean the whole idea of apostles is ludicrous to begin with. So an omnipotent God needs HUMAN messengers? Come one!

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2 hours ago, florduh said:

Without Semi-Wise how can we ever learn the Truth? Maybe I can manage without his wisdom somehow.

 

Funny how most of the Christians who come to enlighten us poor slobs have a bigger ego than L. Ron Hubbard. Especially the ones who insist that they are not really Christians.

 

You could be on to something there, Florduh.

 

About OVERLARGE egos, I mean.

 

I can see two ways it might work. 

 

First, if you genuinely believed that god has selected only you to receive his 'revelation of ultimate clarity' * then it must be really, really hard to remain humble about it.  Doesn't this mean that in god's eyes you are really, really special?  And as god's really, really special anointed instrument on Earth, wouldn't you feel that you deserved the awe and recognition of all those poor, benighted unbelievers?

 

Or, taking god out of the equation, if you genuinely believed that by your innate genius and sheer intellectual effort you had discovered god's truth of truths, wouldn't it be really, really hard to remain humble about that?  In your own eyes, doesn't that make you into a really, really special person?  And, given your amazing achievement, wouldn't you feel that you deserved the awe and recognition of all those poor, benighted unbelievers?

 

Two different paths, both leading to the same destination.

 

 

EGO

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

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Semmelwise reflex syndrome can be tamed, healed and cured with equal amounts of Bayesian Probability Theory and intellectual honesty.

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10 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

With all that experience, he ought to have thick enough skin to handle a couple of Southern country boys getting rough on him... unless he was lying about having all of that experience. 

 

 

I'm placing my bet on the above...

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11 hours ago, florduh said:

Without Semi-Wise how can we ever learn the Truth? Maybe I can manage without his wisdom somehow.

 

Funny how most of the Christians who come to enlighten us poor slobs have a bigger ego than L. Ron Hubbard. Especially the ones who insist that they are not really Christians.

 

Yes, that is interesting. These deluded souls seem to think that there is some special revelation in the bible that goes beyond any of the ordinary denominations. And they are privy to the master secrets of the bible!!!!

 

What interesting case studies they make. Excellent examples of how not to think, how not to try and reason, how not to formulate an argument, and what ill-logic looks like in real time...

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11 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Yes, that is interesting. These deluded souls seem to think that there is some special revelation in the bible that goes beyond any of the ordinary denominations. And they are privy to the master secrets of the bible!!!!

 

What interesting case studies they make. Excellent examples of how not to think, how not to try and reason, how to formulate an argument, and what ill-logic looks like in real time...

 

Sometimes I struggle with this because I also once was like this. I had seen scripture that lead  me in a certain direction and I thought at times I had seen something that no one else saw. That I was going to prove to everyone else that the Bible was true it just wasn't interpreted right. 

 

I actually sympathize with people like @SemmelweisReflex because of this. But in the end the Bible is what it is. Its a book of ignorance. People trying to make sense of the reality they were in and not understanding the science behind what was happening. 

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3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Sometimes I struggle with this because I also once was like this. I had seen scripture that lead  me in a certain certain direction and I thought at times I had seen something that no one else saw. That I was going to prove to everyone else that the Bible was true it just wasn't I terlretted right. 

 

I actually sympathize with people like @SemmelweisReflex because of this. Bit in the end the Bible is what it is. Its a book of ignorance. People trying to make sense of the reality they were in a d not understanding the science behind what was happening. 

In the good ol'dsys, you just had to find an army abd beat other guys with other interpretations or at least make them leave you alone. :)

.     Humans are very social creatures. One observation is that they need a social glue, and they prefer an imperfect one to nothing. We form tight groups and animosities based on trivial things -sports come to mind. Skin colour. Etc. It is not about rational logic, but social emotional logic. 

.     Our ever growing tension between instinct to cooperate and to dominate produces myriad results.

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4 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Yes, that is interesting. These deluded souls seem to think that there is some special revelation in the bible that goes beyond any of the ordinary denominations. And they are privy to the master secrets of the bible!!!!

 

What interesting case studies they make. Excellent examples of how not to think, how not to try and reason, how not to formulate an argument, and what ill-logic looks like in real time...

 

I think some people research bible nonsense so much that they actually think Jesus is living in those books. Research is their Jesus. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I think some people research bible nonsense so much that they actually think Jesus is living in those books. Research is their Jesus. 

 

 

 

They really have made an idol out of the bible, while hating idols...

 

Resus

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For me, it just keeps going back to the point @Myrkhoos made.  Why should a person need a doctorate in ancient culture in order to understand the bible?  Why should someone need to be fluent in a half dozen different languages in order to fully comprehend god's supposedly inspired book?  I'm all for a person researching subjects that are of interest to them; but shouldn't the divine revelation of an omniscient god be accessible to the commoner, the layperson, the uneducated? 

 

Wouldn't an omniscient god have foreseen the misunderstanding, the confusion, that would inevitably arise from such obfuscation as is seen in scripture?  And the violence and, ultimately the eternal damnation, that would ensue as a result?  Why NOT just make the message plain and clear for all to see and understand. Especially if our eternal souls are on the line.

 

As for translation errors... complete horseshit.  Shakespeare has been accurately translated into more languages than I can count.  So has Nietzsche.  How is it that an omniscient, and omnipotent, god can not see to it that his book gets translated correctly, when us mere mortals somehow find a way to do it?

 

Dacă un simplu gât roșu poate traduce acest lucru în timp ce stă pe toaletă, de ce un zeu atotputernic nu poate face acest lucru în timp ce stă pe tronul său de aur?

 

As 'n eenvoudige rooihals dit kan vertaal terwyl hy op die toilet sit, waarom kan 'n almagtige god dit nie doen terwyl hy op sy goue troon sit nie?

 

如果一个普通的乡下人可以坐在马桶上翻译这个,为什么万能的上帝不能坐在他的金宝座上呢?

 

Ako to jednostavan vrag može prevesti dok sjedi na zahodu, zašto to ne bi mogao učiniti svemogući bog dok sjedi na svom zlatnom prijestolju?

 

إذا كان المتخلف البسيط يمكنه ترجمة ذلك أثناء جلوسه على المرحاض ، فلماذا لا يستطيع إله كلي القدرة أن يفعل ذلك وهو جالس على عرشه الذهبي؟

 

אם צווארון אדום פשוט יכול לתרגם זאת בזמן שישב על האסלה, מדוע אל יכול כל יכול לעשות זאת בזמן שישב על כס המלכות הזהוב שלו?

 

Si un simple campesino sureño puede traducir esto mientras está sentado en el inodoro, ¿por qué un dios omnipotente no puede hacerlo mientras está sentado en su trono dorado?

 

 

ប្រសិនបើក្រញាំដ៏សាមញ្ញអាចបកប្រែរឿងនេះនៅពេលអង្គុយលើបង្គន់ហេតុអ្វីបានជាព្រះអាទិទេពមិនអាចធ្វើបាននៅពេលអង្គុយលើបល្ល័ង្កមាសរបស់គាត់?

 

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44 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

For me, it just keeps going back to the point @Myrkhoos made.  Why should a person need a doctorate in ancient culture in order to understand the bible?  Why should someone need to be fluent in a half dozen different languages in order to fully comprehend god's supposedly inspired book?  I'm all for a person researching subjects that interest are of interest to them; but shouldn't the divine revelation of an omniscient god be accessible to the commoner, the layperson, the uneducated? 

 

Wouldn't an omniscient god have foreseen the misunderstanding, the confusion, that would inevitably arise from such obfuscation as is seen in scripture?  And the violence and, ultimately the eternal damnation, that would ensue as a result?  Why NOT just make the message plain and clear for all to see and understand. Especially if our eternal souls are on the line.

 

As for translation errors... complete horseshit.  Shakespeare has been accurately translated into more languages than I can count.  So has Nietzsche.  How is it that an omniscient, and omnipotent, god can not see to it that his book gets translated correctly, when us mere mortals somehow find a way to do it?

 

Dacă un simplu gât roșu poate traduce acest lucru în timp ce stă pe toaletă, de ce un zeu atotputernic nu poate face acest lucru în timp ce stă pe tronul său de aur?

 

As 'n eenvoudige rooihals dit kan vertaal terwyl hy op die toilet sit, waarom kan 'n almagtige god dit nie doen terwyl hy op sy goue troon sit nie?

 

如果一个普通的乡下人可以坐在马桶上翻译这个,为什么万能的上帝不能坐在他的金宝座上呢?

 

Ako to jednostavan vrag može prevesti dok sjedi na zahodu, zašto to ne bi mogao učiniti svemogući bog dok sjedi na svom zlatnom prijestolju?

 

إذا كان المتخلف البسيط يمكنه ترجمة ذلك أثناء جلوسه على المرحاض ، فلماذا لا يستطيع إله كلي القدرة أن يفعل ذلك وهو جالس على عرشه الذهبي؟

 

אם צווארון אדום פשוט יכול לתרגם זאת בזמן שישב על האסלה, מדוע אל יכול כל יכול לעשות זאת בזמן שישב על כס המלכות הזהוב שלו?

 

Si un simple campesino sureño puede traducir esto mientras está sentado en el inodoro, ¿por qué un dios omnipotente no puede hacerlo mientras está sentado en su trono dorado?

 

 

ប្រសិនបើក្រញាំដ៏សាមញ្ញអាចបកប្រែរឿងនេះនៅពេលអង្គុយលើបង្គន់ហេតុអ្វីបានជាព្រះអាទិទេពមិនអាចធ្វើបាននៅពេលអង្គុយលើបល្ល័ង្កមាសរបស់គាត់?

 

I  love how the word "redneck" translates in different languages! LOL

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20 minutes ago, freshstart said:

I  love how the word "redneck" translates in different languages! LOL

In Romanian, bk that is one of the languages, it is just literally "red" and "neck". 

 

But translation of complicated texts is a lot more difficult. Literary and philosophical texts are actually notoriusly difficult yo translate. I give you that. It may be impossible to " accurately" translate Shakespeare. Every translation is an interpretation. I mean try translating jokes. That has a low succes rate. And I think translating lyrical poetry is basically more interpretation than translation. A sort of remake. :)

    But again. An omnipotent God doesn't even need language with all its issues. He can just give the knowledge unmediated. Languages are communication tools, they transmit knowledge, they are not knowledge itself. 

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I'm posting this mostly for the benefit of those reading this thread that may be questioning Christianity. I've noticed that at any point in time we have upwards of 20-30 guests reading the forums. Probably even people like @SemmelweisReflex himself. We are already pretty sure he studied the forum before making his grand entrance. 

     From reading his posts concerning his past it sounds like SF was 27 when he converted. His initial statement that he was an athiest for 27 years isn't entirely accurate. For much of that 27 years he was a child and it sounds like his mother just didn't go to church. He had only had just under a decade to really make his own decisions. He also said that when he was older he started reading these Jehovas witness bibles they had left his mother. Considering that...... was he really athiest during that time??

      He said his mother was not religious because of the hypocrisy in the church. My question is did she look into the sciences? Did she discover contradictions in the Bible? Did she see truth in Darwins theory of evolution, or the big bang? 🤔 I'm just kind of naming things that in his childhood she may have been privy to. If she did some research it seems that she did her son a disservice by not instilling that knowledge into him. Did she teach him to be a critical thinker and to question what he was told by religious people?

     However if hypocrisy was the only reason she ever gave her son for not being a believer, that is not a strong foundation as an athiest. In that case all it would take is for him to find a religion that he didn't see as a bunch of hypocrits. In his conversion testimony he said that he decided to pray and see if God would answer the prayer. Instantly after praying this prayer a Jehovas witness woman knocked on the door. Now he has analyzed the scripture and created his own apologetics heavily favoring the Jehovas witness doctrin. 

     First let's talk about his miraculous prayer. If this story is in fact true it was a series of coincidences. For every one person that can tell a story of a miraculously answered prayer such as this there are a million more that weren't answered. I prayed a similar prayer once after my deconversion. I went to a homecoming at a church with my ex wife. The guest preacher there was the original pastor of the church. Very old and obviously had a touch of dimintia. When I noticed all this I decided to pray one last prayer. Like I said I had already deconverted but there was this small shred of doubt and I succumbed to it. I began to cry, and I prayed one last prayer, that If the bibles God was real. That this man who had remained faithful, started churches, preached his whole adult life, would come down the isle and tell me God told him that I needed to come back. That I would come back. With tears in my eyes and a heavy heart I prayed this. The invitation came for people to come pray at the altar. This was the time I expected God to move him. He didn't. The invitation came and went. Not once did the preacher even really look at me. There was a luncheon afterward. I even went up to the preacher and shook his hand. Again..... not one word from the Lord was spoken to me through this man. 

    In  Matt 18:12 Jesus speaks a parable of the Shepard that has 100 sheep and one wanders away. He says what one of you would not leave the 99 to find the one? The 99 are the ones that he didn't have to worry about. The 1 however could be in danger. That day I was supposed to be that 1 sheep. Yet I was in the house of the Shepard. This God in all his Almighty glory could not even speak to me through his own servant, in his own house, over the course of hours. The Bible speaks of deaf and dumb gods, referring to the idols that the pagans worshipped. Yet for millions of praying believers he doesn't speak, he doesn't act, and he doesn't hear. 

      Now let's talk about his personal interpretations. What makes SF so special that God instantly answered his prayer that day? Nothing. Just coincidence. As you can see even he had to make his own apologetic Interpretations to make the Bible make sense to himself. He has thrown out half the core beliefs that many Christians have believed for almost 1600 years. And why in the world would God all of a sudden work through the Jehovas witness? They are a modern religious sect and have many traits of cults. If we are to believe that Jehovas witness, LDS, SDA, Church of God of the Union assembly, and other more modern churches are the "right" ones. What about all those believers up until the past 200 years? Were they all wrong? Was God not talking to them since Jesus ascended? 

     I made up my own interpretations too toward the end of my faith. I had my interpretation of how Gods days of creation must must spanned billions of years. My own interpretations of salvation, I even joined a very questionable denomination that was built on apologetics which I became an ordained bishop in. I can't blame him for making his own thing up. It's really the only way the Bible can be made to make sense anymore. Nothing fits. 

     I keep going back to a thought I had a few months ago. The earliest recorded books of the Bible were written around 1200 - 1500 BC. That was 1200 - 1500 years before Christ. So according to Christians the messiah was prophesied for that many years. During his life he told his followers that there were people there that would not taste of death before he came back with God the fathers kingdom. That was the first teaching that Christians had to create apologetics for. As his disciples lived and died without Jesus second coming. Now 2021 years later he still hasn't come. So the Jews looked for a messiah for 1500 years, but we've been looking for him to come back for far longer than that. In what universe does that make sense? The answer is it doesn't make sense. 

    He wasn't the first and  I'm sure SF won't be the last Christian to come here with their brand of doctrine to show all of us here the error of our ways. As you can see several of us provided SF with facts to counter his assertions, yet he only gave his assertions. That doesn't work here. In this day in age there are to many facts countering the biblical account for us to believe. And that is the truth. 

 

Dark Bishop

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10 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

I also prayed that many times. Nothing convincing happened yet. Maybe I was not sincere enough. :)

 

According to @Brothermario & @SemmelweisReflex there is a "correct" way to pray apart from your sincerity.

 

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50 minutes ago, Krowb said:

 

According to @Brothermario & @SemmelweisReflex there is a "correct" way to pray apart from your sincerity.

 

Guess that's another thing God should have been able to explain a little better in his good book LMAO! I thought it only took a mustard seed of faith. 

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The Bible claims (Genesis 11:1-9) that God created the various spoken languages specifically to confound the mind of man.

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12 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Guess that's another thing God should have been able to explain a little better in his good book LMAO! I thought it only took a mustard seed of faith. 

 

Faith as a mustard seed.. and a correct attitude, and sincerity, and that all-important "personal relationship with Jesus".

 

Probably there are other qualifications that only the true gnostics can understand.

 

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1 hour ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Faith as a mustard seed.. and a correct attitude, and sincerity, and that all-important "personal relationship with Jesus".

And even after all of that, it ends up not being "god's will."

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On 6/13/2021 at 9:46 PM, DarkBishop said:

From reading his posts concerning his past it sounds like SF was 27 when he converted. His initial statement that he was an athiest for 27 years isn't entirely accurate. For much of that 27 years he was a child and it sounds like his mother just didn't go to church. He had only had just under a decade to really make his own decisions. He also said that when he was older he started reading these Jehovas witness bibles they had left his mother. Considering that...... was he really athiest during that time??

 

Technically, it must be conceded that if he did not believe in god for any reason (including no educated reasons) he was 'without god belief,' the definition of atheist. Lacking god belief. For the sake of debate, and readers lurking along, this is something that needs to be noted. We don't have a good argument against someone not being a 'true' atheist. We have to take them at their word when they say that they didn't believe in god at some point. 

 

But what we do have are very good arguments as to whether or not someone was ever a studied, well informed, or intellectual oriented atheist. To date I have not witnessed one single personal testimony, ever, of such a conversion from atheism to theism. It's always uniformed, not well studied, not highly intellectual atheists making the switch to theistic belief. 

 

So your gut instinct is correct. SR came here showing a rather poor back ground knowledge base about atheism, science, and related issues. Just because mommy didn't go to church and technically they didn't believe in god, that doesn't make him an authority on atheism nor a spokeman for such, who, saw the light and found truth in jesus. Not even close. So the conversion story is nothing more than converting from one form of uninformed ignorance, to another form of uninformed ignorance. Never having gained any meaningful knowledge of either. 

 

I started poking holes in this pseudo intellectual right away. It's a facade. He has no depth of experience arguing Genesis 1. It's embarrassing in this day and age to refer to YHWH as jehovah, since nearly everyone knows that jehovah doesn't represent the tetragrammaton in a meaningful way, except to outdated jehovah's witness's who are stuck with old 19th century theological views and terminology that has long since changed and updated over the years since their cult founder, Charles Taze Russell instigated the cult based on old theological ideas of the time. No "J" in the hebrew alphabet and all of that. Most people know that. Russell apparently didn't understand the situation very well and didn't see the future we now live in. 

 

Basically, someone who didn't know anything about god or religion and professed atheism until age 27, got mixed up with some JW cultist's, listened to their admonitions against mainstream christianity and pagan influences, and took off on some magic carpet ride where his ego took off to the stars! He's better than all christians. And he assumed, incorrectly, that he's better than all ex christians. 

 

He came here and met his match in several members. He got pwn'd. He's gone silent while leaving many important questions unanswered. Surprise everyone!!! Never saw that coming....

 

It bizarre, though, how these various apologist's show up basically in single file order. Not always, but most of the time. We'll get some eccentric with crazy ideas one after the next. They'll come in hot and burn out fast. Then another apologist will appear with a different eccentric twist based on something else. One after the next. And for whatever reason we had a Mormon burn out and then this JW show up right behind him. 

 

Coincidence? 

 

People screwing around? 

 

Lurker's waiting their turn to step into the spotlight? 

 

It's entertainment whatever the case. It's humorous at times. And it provides members here with clay's to shoot at. So screw'em, they can keep coming. And we'll keep shooting'em down - one by one as it seems. 

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On 6/10/2021 at 4:56 PM, freshstart said:

 

 

Well since you have decided scientific evidence is not good enough to test whether the "supernatural" is real/truth, I think it is up to you to define what constitutes "evidence"  - for whatever it is you believe.  Is it a gut feeling?  Is it whatever you can observe with your 5 senses?  Or is it something else?

 

I've explained it is faith. 

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On 6/10/2021 at 5:06 PM, DarkBishop said:

 

I apologize for calling you an ignorant Fuck. I would like to request an apology for your above blatant assertion that I am a liar. As I have now provided you with three articles of evidence that the scientific research I asserted has in fact been done and a secular conclusion has been made based on the evidence attained in said research. which I had originally stated and this was your response.

 

I don't need an apology for calling me an ignorant fuck if you think I'm an ignorant fuck. Stick to your accusation if you believe it to be true. I don't even recall it, nor do I remember calling you a liar. I may have but it doesn't sound like me. Disagreement isn't such an accusation, you know. Do you have a link to me saying that? I'm up to my ass in alligators here. 

 

I will address your flood post later.  

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