SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 27 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said: Why do you think the Bible was inspired by the being you call Jehovah? Why do you think it wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 14 minutes ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Why do you think it wasn't? Typical. Answering a question with a question. Our reasons for not believing it are all over this site. How about answering the damn question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Religious people tend to think of their gods as cosmic cash machine. What's in it for me. I thought you were making a joke. I don't understand why heaven would be valuable to anyone except for that it becomes a product of ones own imagination. Earth was created for man. Man wouldn't be happy in heaven. oh ok. I guess my question is "Why are you a disciple of Jesus?" Like you say, people think God is a cosmic cash machine, but I think everyone looks for some sort of benefit from relationships, behaviors and activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 I get the point that you are laboring. That one has to guard against subjectivity and strive for objectivity and I agree. That could be the very definition of personal responsibility in interpretation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Very well, David. For the time being let's say that we are more or less in agreement that we each have a personal responsibility to guard against subjectivity and to strive for objectivity in matters of interpretation. That being so, let's turn our attention to the bible. The big problem I have in getting drawn into a debate about what the bible says and/or what it means is this. For two thousand years too many people to count have spliced and diced the contents of that book, diligently searching for the true meaning of this passage or of that chapter. Others have tried the way of divine revelation, fasting and praying and waiting on god to deliver a true understanding of His Word. Some have sought the deeper truths that they believe lie hidden in plain sight in the text, looking for secret codes, symbols and metaphors. Others have resorted to numerology or computer analysis to sift out what scripture is really saying and what it really means. Some have tried comparing the words of other belief systems to see what common patterns and themes emerge, hoping that this approach will shed some light on what goes on in god's mind. Others investigate the writings and recorded thoughts of the saints and the early church to see if these documents can throw a new light on the meaning of the bible. Some seek solitude, hoping that by eliminating worldly distractions they can bring every last ounce of their mental powers to bear on the problem of finding out what god is saying through scripture. And so on, ad nauseum. All of these people have reached such a diverse range of conclusions about the bible that it is impossible to get even a superficial grasp of all of them. There are so many differing interpretations and so many people claiming that they have the truth that its difficult to keep track of them all. It seems that there are as many interpretations as there are interpreters. That the bible can mean all things to all people. That almost any new scientific discovery can be interpreted as confirming and/or illuminating the words of scripture. That almost any significant event in a person's life can be interpreted in the light of this chapter or that passage. Or, inverting that process, almost any chapter or verse can be interpreted in the light of almost any significant event in a person's life. And so on, ad nauseum. David, so much has been already been said about the bible in so many different ways by so many people interpreting it as they see it, that I really find it difficult to believe that reploughing/reparsing/rehashing/reanalysing/regurgitating yet another person's unique interpretation of that book will yield anything useful or meaningful. That's why I have so little time for personal interpretations of the bible. And that's why I'm not going to dive headfirst into the endless ocean of subjectivity in a debate that hinges on personal interpretation. But, if you (or anyone else) can present something minimally subjective and maximally objective, then I'm interested. Sorry for the rant, but I felt it needed saying. Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, SemmelweisReflex said: But why? And what would have happened had God not done that? Regarding the flood. I dont know. Maybe all of humanity would have annihilated each other had God not stepped in (and annihilated everyone himself - lol). So why hasnt humanity annihilated itself since then? Honestly I may have missed the part after the Noah story where God does a tweak on every person's brain to not be as evil as the people before the flood? Why would you have to kill all the people in the world just to 'reset' humanity, so to speak? Couldn't God just give people a subtle new directive right to their brain saying, "Be nice." Why is it that humans can think of less drastic solutions to problems while the loving God's solution is to destroy? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Why do you think it wasn't? Because he never shows up in person to confirm the bible is his authoritative word. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, SemmelweisReflex said: 1 hour ago, Myrkhoos said: Why do you think the Bible was inspired by the being you call Jehovah? Why do you think it wasn't? First you must establish that your Jehovah character actually exists, then we can try to find out what he/she did or did not inspire. We can't skip this step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 43 minutes ago, florduh said: First you must establish that your Jehovah character actually exists, then we can try to find out what he/she did or did not inspire. We can't skip this step. Who says we can't skip that step and why? Normally I wouldn't, but I'm going to play this game with you. How would we establish a character actually exists that we can't see and that can't appear in the universe? How would science do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 57 minutes ago, midniterider said: Because he never shows up in person to confirm the bible is his authoritative word. Not good enough. How do you expect him to "show up?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Who says we can't skip that step and why? Normally I wouldn't, but I'm going to play this game with you. How would we establish a character actually exists that we can't see and that can't appear in the universe? How would science do that? So that leaves us with you simply say "X" exists and "X" did such and such. Sorry, you might as well assert that invisible monkeys wrote everything attributed to Shakespeare. This is a waste of your time and ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 hour ago, midniterider said: Regarding the flood. I dont know. Maybe all of humanity would have annihilated each other had God not stepped in (and annihilated everyone himself - lol). So why hasnt humanity annihilated itself since then? Honestly I may have missed the part after the Noah story where God does a tweak on every person's brain to not be as evil as the people before the flood? Nephilim. Humanity hasn't annihilated itself since then because the Nephilim were destroyed. God didn't and wouldn't tweak brains. We have to do that ourselves. 1 hour ago, midniterider said: Why would you have to kill all the people in the world just to 'reset' humanity, so to speak? Couldn't God just give people a subtle new directive right to their brain saying, "Be nice." Why is it that humans can think of less drastic solutions to problems while the loving God's solution is to destroy? Killing all the people wouldn't have worked. Then there would be no people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, florduh said: So that leaves us with you simply say "X" exists and "X" did such and such. Sorry, you might as well assert that invisible monkeys wrote everything attributed to Shakespeare. This is a waste of your time and ours. That makes no sense. I wouldn't say that. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, SemmelweisReflex said: How would science do that? Science would not even attempt it, as science is agnostic and has nothing to say on supernatural, paranormal, or metaphysical ideas. Science makes no claim outside of the physical. Therefore, it is not science's place to prove your God exists. As it stands, you made the claim that jehovah exists, so the onus is on you to support your claim with evidence. Not bald assertion, not personal interpretation, not theological arguments written by bronze-age goat fornicators. Evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Nephilim. Humanity hasn't annihilated itself since then because the Nephilim were destroyed. God didn't and wouldn't tweak brains. We have to do that ourselves. Wow, how did you get so smart? You know everything! Or...... you just make shit up and declare this and this happened and means thus and so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Not good enough. How do you expect him to "show up?" Isn't he omnipotent? Isn't he omniscient? Then he should know exactly what he needs to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said: Science would not even attempt it, as science is agnostic and has nothing to say on supernatural, paranormal, or metaphysical ideas. Science makes no claim outside of the physical. Therefore, it is not science's place to prove your God exists. As it stands, you made the claim that jehovah exists, so the onus is on you to support your claim with evidence. Not bald assertion, not personal interpretation, not theological arguments written by bronze-age goat fornicators. Evidence. So you want me to do what science can't do without using any real evidence. Defining evidence: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." I've said God can't be seen and cant appear in the universe. How do I know this is true and how would science tackle similar problems. Hint: we can't see germs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 Just now, SemmelweisReflex said: we can't see germs. Did you forget about microscopes for a second, there, buddy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, SemmelweisReflex said: That makes no sense. I wouldn't say that. Try again. You try again. You proposed a specific deity and proceeded to explain its motives. How is that different than my invisible monkey assertion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Isn't he omnipotent? Isn't he omniscient? Then he should know exactly what he needs to do. God isn't omnipotent, isn't omniscient and isn't omnipresent. How do I know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, SemmelweisReflex said: So you want me to do what science can't do without using any real evidence. No. I want you to support your claim. Science didn't make the claim. YOU DID. Put up or shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 Just now, SemmelweisReflex said: God isn't omnipotent, isn't omniscient and isn't omnipresent. How do I know that? Because he's not God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 22 minutes ago, SemmelweisReflex said: How would we establish a character actually exists that we can't see and that can't appear in the universe? Indirectly. 1. If persons who "believe" could suddenly drink any poison and not die (Mark 16:18) 2. If persons who "believe" could lay hands on the sick and the sick recover - no medical treatment needed (Mark 16:18) 3. If persons who had biblical faith could move mountains (Matthew 17:20) 4. If nothing was impossible for those with biblical faith (Matthew 17:20) 5. If anything would be done by two or more believers on earth (Matthew 18:19) 6. testing god by bringing a full tithe into the storehouse (Malachi 3:10) If any of these could be observed as the bible indicates, it would be evidence the bible is at least speaking to something beyond our current realm of understanding. Also, do you believe in the omni conception of god? To say god can't appear in the universe contradicts several OT appearances and puts a very clear and unusual finite limitation. So far @WalterP has the gist of it. You have an interpretation that you believe is correct (not that anyone would intentionally hold an incorrect belief) yet so far are unable to produce any argument or evidence that moves the needle beyond what other similarly situated belief structures can produce. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemmelweisReflex Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, florduh said: You try again. You proposed a specific deity and proceeded to explain its motives. How is that different than my invisible monkey assertion? Okay. I haven't seen your monkey assertion, but let's tackle deity. Can you define what a deity is? And how can you do that? With science? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Not good enough. How do you expect him to "show up?" Maybe as a human being? A burning bush? We are made in his image according to the bible. I guess God is not all powerful. edit....I see you dont think God is all powerful. Hokey doke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 9, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2021 1 minute ago, SemmelweisReflex said: Okay. I haven't seen your monkey assertion, but let's tackle deity. Can you define what a deity is? And how can you do that? With science? You chose to believe in and put forth the deity Jehovah (using your own definitions), it's your assertion and belief so proof and definitions are not my problem. Try to remember back to the comment that your assertions are no different than claiming that invisible monkeys wrote everything attributed to Shakespeare. Pay better attention lest we repeat ourselves indefinitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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