I don't get creationism

[Guest chaste4JC]

I recently left my fundie church and joined a Unitarian Universalist one because everyone thought I was a horrible/gullible person for believing in evolution. And they kept throwing these lame arguments at me, talking themselves in circles to try and get me to change my mind.

 

Now, I totally get how people can convince themselves of things they want to believe even when there's not a lot of evidence. (or any evidence) There are a lot of things that I believe because they give me hope, and that hope improves my life. But what I can't figure out is why everyone WANTS to believe in a literal creation story. I mean,

1. The creation story in the bible is a gorgeous poem that basically describes evolution. Who cares if it's not detailed enough to describe the mechanism of evolution - it's a poem!!! It's supposed to sound pretty!!

2. Who says God didn't create the universe and all the laws of the universe, then let it unfold from there? And still subtly shapes events within the boundaries of those laws? How is that bad? Why would a person not want to believe that?

 

Personally, I think it makes God all the more awe-inspiring, planning out every star and planet and species from the beginning than if He just threw together a universe in mid-creation. That's like a mother giving birth to a 20-year-old man! I mean, in my opinion, God is a little bit smarter than to do a stupid thing like that!

 

Anyway... sorry to rant at you like that. I'm still a Christian (by some people's definitions.. not by others') but I just had a BAAAAAAAAD experience with a fundamentalist church and I felt like letting off some steam. This site seemed a good place to do it. Even though it's against Christianity as a religion, you guys seem to talk more about fundamentalists than more liberal Christians. So... so... yeah. Hi.

[Guest chaste4JC]

oh, by the way... don't get freaked out by my screen name. It's the same screen name I've been using since I was like 12 (with some minor variations, depending on whether or not someone else had already taken it). I keep it out of force of habit and also because I'm too lazy to think up something different.

 

I DO still believe in saving yourself for your one true love, and because I know I'll marry my one true love, that's technically saving myself for marriage, but it's more of a personal respectability thing than anything else.

 

I'm thinking more and more that I should have changed my screen name before joining this forum....

[Mr. Neil]

Who says God didn't create the universe and all the laws of the universe, then let it unfold from there? And still subtly shapes events within the boundaries of those laws? How is that bad? Why would a person not want to believe that?

These are questions that fundies/creationists cannot answer, and they never will without assuming that they know the will of God, which is of course blasphemous.

 

You've stumbled upon the false dichotomy of fundamentalist belief, and you're right. There's no reason to assume that, if there's a God, that he couldn't or wouldn't use evolution.

 

Creationists like Kent Hovind are always talking about how God created the laws of the universe. Well fine, let's assume that's true for a moment. Scientific laws point to a way in which matter and energy function. The universe is like a factory, and the planetary systems are like machines within this factory. The sun is a fuel source which feeds energy to the planets in its orbit. Our planet harvests this energy to fuel life, which is in a constant state of change.

 

And it needs change, because environments change! Not only does life adapt to changes in its surroundings, it's capable of taking advantage of new energy sources where life was previously impossible, like when life arose from the oceans to take advantage of the abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere. It would be downright stupid to think that life couldn't do this.

 

But how does this say that there's no God? Well, it doesn't. It's just that a few childish fundies can't except that some of the things in their book are simply not to be taken at face value.

 

It's like the creationists expect the universe and all of its components to be inert, because God has to do it. Then what would the point be of having natural laws? If God created the universe, then he created it to function.

 

Creationists don't want it to function. They want God to be the puppet master of the universe, pulling the strings and making everything happen. If that's true, then God really hasn't created much of anything.

[Thurisaz]

...what I can't figure out is why everyone WANTS to believe in a literal creation story...

 

It's tempting to believe in a simple world, that's why (as far as I can tell).

 

You see, as long as someone has something... anything... that is true no matter what happens, he has a chance of not needing to think for himself - as long as he can rely on this "truth" the world becomes conveniently simple for him.

 

It's pretty much the same mechanism that powers the neo-fascists in my German homeland. It's so wonderfully easy, isn't it? Once you're ready to believe that all the misery a native German citizen has to go through is really the result of Evil Foreigners™ invading his homeland to rob him of his job, his woman, everything, you (think you) know exactly what to do to solve all your problems - just kick out all those Evil Immigrants™ and your life will be a dream.

 

The average fundamentalist (whether "christian", "muslim" or whathaveyou - I've collected most of my experience with christian fundies, but I'm quite sure the others aren't that different) has the same mindset, and his conviction is reinforced by the dogma that you must not doubt the babble or else you'll land in Hell™.

 

Oh well, you might feel insulted by my calling the scripture of your faith the "babble" - but I trust you understand why I did that, considering what I wrote just before.

[white_raven23]

Well met Chaste4JC!!

 

And you've stumbled across religion's fatal flaw. In order for the members of a sect to be "members", they all have to believe the exact same thing. Publically anyway.

 

NO ONE believes the same thing! Every person's mind is an individual construct. Even twins have differences.

 

Everyone accepts information differently. Not everyone accepts the same info. But everyone DOES decide whether or not they will share their opinions with others.

 

I'm willing to bet at any given Genesis Beginning inspired sermon, at least 70% of the people in the room (including the minister) believes exactly as you say, that the Genesis is a simplified story of evolution. But just try to get them to admit it openly.

 

Kudos to you for being able to hold the Genesis story and evolution in your mind at the same time. There are some people who would sooner kill themselves than even try to do that.

[Caretaker]

That is good. My number one rule about beliefs is not to let belief interfere with reality.

[MrSpooky]

oh, by the way... don't get freaked out by my screen name. It's the same screen name I've been using since I was like 12 (with some minor variations, depending on whether or not someone else had already taken it). I keep it out of force of habit and also because I'm too lazy to think up something different.

 

Don't get freaked out by my AIM screenname "xxx17grlsexy4u."

 

Those bitchos already took "xxx16grlsexy4u." I'm almost too old to be a camwhore! *sob!*

[Celsus]

To paraphrase Erwin Schroedinger, one the giants of physics........"Many believers are upset when science does not find God in its explorations and explantions of the natural universe ...and then turn around and boldy proclaim God is spirit!!

 

Science is a methodology of understanding the HOW of things . Philosophy and religion are about the WHY of things. A reasonable philosophy or religion incorporates the findings of science, which is the base level of our human experience into a larger framework. A philosophy or religion that refuses to accept the proven facts of science, builds a framework made out of noodles; once it is soaked by the inescapable reality of the foundation (science), it loses its ability to stand. This is where the fundamentalists have made a mistake, for they confuse poetic explanations of WHY for HOW and their worldview cannot survive, except by repressing the truth of science, and then only temporarily.

 

Bruce

[Abiyoyo]

Chaste4JC

Im a Christian. I understand the logic about this situation. The defination of a "fundamentalist" is the belief that one's religious texts are infallible and historically accurate, despite contradiction of these claims by modern scholarship.(Wikipedia). The whole basis around this veiw of religion is around the Bible. If this helps, Jesus said in the scriptures that He was not opposing the commandments of Moses but yet He was fulfilling them. Just as Christians must believe by faith in the Gospels, also there must be faith in the Old Testament including Genesis's explanation of the creation of this world. I hope that this faith will guide you, but I know that ALL people desire to know our heritage, being as we are now. This is not wrong, and the possible "fundies" at the church being attended could very well be responding out of their own will. The answers are in the Bible; I also know that people become curious, which is OK. Faith in the belief of God though, has been the majority of the basis in Christianity. Is Gods hand to short to show your heritage to you?Obcourse not, He will show you what you desire in His will. His will is your completion of a "disciple" of Jesus Christ, in which your questions will be answered, just as mine were. The most important realization is that I had to ultimately have full faith in Gods word, and He showed me after I believed by faith.

God Bless

[Mr. Neil]

Wikipedia does not represent modern scholarship. There are much better resources to point to when showing the errancy of the Bible.

[Guest Gothicrip]

Chaste4JC

            Im a Christian. I understand the logic about this situation. The defination of a "fundamentalist" is the belief that one's religious texts are infallible and historically accurate, despite contradiction of these claims by modern scholarship.(Wikipedia). The whole basis around this veiw of religion is around the Bible. If this helps, Jesus said in the scriptures that He was not opposing the commandments of Moses but yet He was fulfilling them. Just as Christians must believe by faith in the Gospels, also there must be faith in the Old Testament including  Genesis's explanation of the creation of this world. I hope that this faith will guide you, but I know that ALL people desire to know our heritage, being as we are now. This is not wrong, and the possible "fundies" at the church being attended could very well be responding out of their own will. The answers are in the Bible; I also know that people become curious, which is OK. Faith in the belief of God though, has been the majority of the basis in Christianity. Is Gods hand to short to show your heritage to you?Obcourse not, He will show you what you desire in His will. His will is your completion of a "disciple" of Jesus Christ, in which your questions will be answered, just as mine were. The most important realization is that I had to ultimately have full faith in Gods word, and He showed me after I believed by faith.

God Bless

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So you're made out of dust like it says there in the bible? Like, dust as in small peices of dead organic material e.g. skin flakes and dandruff?

 

... >_>

[Abiyoyo]

So you're made out of dust like it says there in the bible? Like, dust as in small peices of dead organic material e.g. skin flakes and dandruff?

 

...  >_>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. I believe in my beliefs, and the guide of my beliefs is the Bible. This is our heritage or some may say "story of creation". I believe that as a believer in Christ, my "created factor" is not as important as the "closeness" to God that I must come too.

[Guest Gothicrip]

Yes. I believe in my beliefs, and the guide of my beliefs is the Bible. This is our heritage or some may say "story of creation". I believe that as a believer in Christ, my "created factor" is not as important as the "closeness" to God that I must come too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ewww, dandruff.

[white_raven23]

Ewww, dandruff.

 

And fecal matter.....you forgot that componet of dust.

[dustmouse]

So YoYo is composed of fecal matter? Boy, I thought it was just his/her/its logic that was made of it!!

 

 

Remind me not to stand to close... I don't want any of that getting on me. I just took a bath, thanks. Wait .. cut that .. even if I DIDN'T just take a bath, I don't want any of it on me!!

[Jay]

There is a rather large body of Christians who do not believe that the Genesis account of creation is a literal story. I believe that it is a historical allegory. The story does not have to be literally true to contain truth, as is true of many different parables we tell our children.

 

The Bible is not a book of science, and anyone applying it as such really has missed the purpose of it, whether they are a fundy or not.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Dear Jay, interesting and refreshing perspective. Do you also look on the biblical accounts of Jesus' crucifixion and of it signficance - removing God's wrath against sin or such - as an allegory of something else? If so, where does that leave Christianity? If not, i.e. if you adhere to orthodoxy in matters of doctrine, why interpret the Bible strictly where its assertions are unfalsifiable but allow it is allegory when its assertions are falsifiable?

 

This sort of question was part of the way that led me out of Christianity.

[Jay]

Do you also look on the biblical accounts of Jesus' crucifixion and of it signficance - removing God's wrath against sin or such - as an allegory of something else?

No, the Gospels are not the same type of literature that Genesis is.

If not, i.e. if you adhere to orthodoxy in matters of doctrine, why interpret the Bible strictly where its assertions are unfalsifiable but allow it is allegory when its assertions are falsifiable?

Actually, I have been roundly criticized by many Christians as not being orthodox, therefore wrong.

 

The Bible is not a monogamous collection of literature. There are several different things in it. One finds allegory, poetry, history, personal opinion, theology, anecdotes, parables, and several other types of writing. Since the books of the Bible were written over a long period of time by many different authors, I think it would be unreasonable to assume that it should all be read the same. Even within one book, there can be a variety of literature, so I am not at all convinced that one must read every word literally, nor every word allegorically, nor every word poetically.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I can't disagree. That is one of the reasons why I don't believe any more that the Bible is God's revelation to humanity, and why I don't believe that people are obligated in conscience to believe or follow its various sayings.

[Jay]

I can't disagree.  That is one of the reasons why I don't believe any more that the Bible is God's revelation to humanity, and why I don't believe that people are obligated in conscience to believe or follow its various sayings.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I do believe it us a useful document, just not for the study of science or the origin of the universe. The Bible is primarily a book of theology, and is useful for learning about God. It also has some useful information about how to live peacefully among other people. However, I would say that if you have no interest in learning about God then the Bible is definitely not for you.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Well, I do believe it us a useful document, just not for the study of science or the origin of the universe.  The Bible is primarily a book of theology, and is useful for learning about God.  It also has some useful information about how to live peacefully among other people.  However, I would say that if you have no interest in learning about God then the Bible is definitely not for you.

 

Hi, Jay. Like many people on this website, I used to have passionate interest in learning about God, and referred everything in my life to the Bible. Now I don't think there is a God to be learned about. So, yes, the Bible is definitely not for me, except as a document of human religious, historical and political activity within a certain culture. I have gotten more out of Greek epic, tragedy and philosophy for the person I now am.

 

cheers

[Abiyoyo]

These are questions that fundies/creationists cannot answer, and they never will without assuming that they know the will of God, which is of course blasphemous.

 

You've stumbled upon the false dichotomy of fundamentalist belief, and you're right.  There's no reason to assume that, if there's a God, that he couldn't or wouldn't use evolution.

 

Creationists like Kent Hovind are always talking about how God created the laws of the universe.  Well fine, let's assume that's true for a moment.  Scientific laws point to a way in which matter and energy function.  The universe is like a factory, and the planetary systems are like machines within this factory.  The sun is a fuel source which feeds energy to the planets in its orbit.  Our planet harvests this energy to fuel life, which is in a constant state of change.

 

And it needs change, because environments change!  Not only does life adapt to changes in its surroundings, it's capable of taking advantage of new energy sources where life was previously impossible, like when life arose from the oceans to take advantage of the abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere.  It would be downright stupid to think that life couldn't do this.

 

But how does this say that there's no God?  Well, it doesn't.  It's just that a few childish fundies can't except that some of the things in their book are simply not to be taken at face value.

 

It's like the creationists expect the universe and all of its components to be inert, because God has to do it.  Then what would the point be of having natural laws?  If God created the universe, then he created it to function.

 

Creationists don't want it to function.  They want God to be the puppet master of the universe, pulling the strings and making everything happen.  If that's true, then God really hasn't created much of anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The whole book of the Bible is based around faith.

If creation were scientifically proven, How would the world react?

 

Would not the majority of the world "come to terms" with the known proofs that would exist?

 

Would this hereific event of history go againist the whole direction of the Bible, as in Revelations?

 

The Bible informs that stubbornness to God, and disbelief will be in effect even on the last Day. All these characteristics of life will happen until He comes, as said in the scripture of course. Lastly, why does one try to prove something that Biblically is not meant to be proven?We cant. Thats why "creationists" scurry around to find the last proof or detail . I believe in the creation, not by science by faith. One may call this iggnorant, uneducated, etc; but in reality, this can be a challenge in a world full of convience and science and structure of "evolution". Children are taught a cult religion based "evolution in schools and people complian about the teaching of the Bible, come on please. The whole scheme of evolution is based around a dying sect of "religion" and is all intertwained with the government and NASA. Theres your proof, or not. How anyone that reads this feels right now is the same as Christians feel in regards to our beliefs. The fact is that as humans we dont really know anything about how this world was created, we have faith in whatever we believe by what we want to believe. I also believe that most peoles beliefs, and criticism againist creation is based more upon the "bad, uncomfortable" experiences that one had when involved in Christianity. We all have our "facts", as well as Christians. The question is whos right, and if not what is the final destination. See, if Im wrong about creation and God, then I die and live a modern conservative life and mostly in happiness, content with my beliefs. If the critics are wrong, well, then we all here have extensive Bible knowledge so Ive assumed; To enter the New Kingdom, Jesus must be in the belief factor. So, i guess we will all see, "but for me and my house we shall serve the Lord"

[Jay]

Hi, Jay. Like many people on this website, I used to have passionate interest in learning about God, and referred everything in my life to the Bible.  Now I don't think there is a God to be learned about.  So, yes, the Bible is definitely not for me, except as a document of human religious, historical and political activity within a certain culture.  I have gotten more out of Greek epic, tragedy and philosophy for the person I now am.

 

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I still do have a passionate interest in learning about God. I am a Christian. And I do read and study the Bible, as well as numerous other things. One thing that concerns me about a number of Christians I know is their insistence that everything they need to know is in the Bible. That is just silly. Not even the book itself makes such a claim. I think Christians should spend time studying the classics, as well as many excellent pieces of contemporary literature. I do not get the sense from any of the biblical writers that they were ignorant of their culture as I get from many Christians I know.

 

Equally troubling to me are Christians who tell their non-Christians friends to read the Bible. I mean, for God's sake, why on earth would a non-Christian want to do that? It would be like asking me to read the New York Times, a newspaper which has lost all credibility in my opinion. I will read the Washington Times or the Washington Post or even the Times of London. But the New Your Times is a meaningless publication to me, just as the Bible is a meaningless document to a non-Christian. Yes, you may glean some historical knowledge from it, but that's about it.

 

However, continue reading the classics. They are beneficial to anyone!

[Abiyoyo]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are good comments. I have found that if a true misguided person starts in John and begins there reading it will help them to better understand the "concept" of the Bible. I wanted to give some feed back on some of the statements made. I have always been very vocal about the Word of God and I mostly answer a vast amount of "life" questions or situations that arise through the Word of God. I even do this at work, I dont preach, I just answer honestly if someone asks me why I did that, or why I think this way. Be informative, and observe, and venture out to this worlds history as well as suggested in your comments.

 

 

 

 

 

Not even the book itself makes such a claim.

 

Ps 77:12

12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.

(KJV)

 

Ps 119:15

15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

(KJV)

 

1 Tim 4:15-16

15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

(KJV)

 

Equally troubling to me are Christians who tell their non-Christians friends to red the Bible.  I mean, for God's sake, why on earth would a non-Christian want to do that?

 

 

 

Matt 10:34

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(KJV)

 

Luke 2:35

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

(KJV)

 

Eph 6:17

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

(KJV)

 

Heb 4:12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

(KJV)

[Jay]

Not even the book itself makes such a claim.

Ps 77:12

12 I will meditate also of all thy work, and talk of thy doings.

(KJV)

 

Ps 119:15

15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.

(KJV)

 

1 Tim 4:15-16

15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

YoYo, sweetie, do me just the smallest little favor and quote me in context, if you are going to quote me. For your reference, here is what I said:

One thing that concerns me about a number of Christians I know is their insistence that everything they need to know is in the Bible. That is just silly. Not even the book itself makes such a claim.

Now, none of those verses you snipped says that everything you need to know is in the Bible, WHICH IS WHAT MY SENTENCE YOU CUT OUT WAS IN REFERENCE TO!!!!!!!

 

Equally troubling to me are Christians who tell their non-Christians friends to red the Bible.  I mean, for God's sake, why on earth would a non-Christian want to do that?

Matt 10:34

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(KJV)

 

Luke 2:35

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

(KJV)

 

Eph 6:17

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

(KJV)

 

Heb 4:12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

(KJV)

The other little thing you could do for me is read the little snippets before you reply to them. None of what you posted is of any value to an unbeliever. But hey, I am not going to go to an Ex-Christian board to debate theology with a Christian. If you want to do that, perhaps we should meet on some other board.

 

Jay