Free Will

[SemmelweisReflex]

God Determines Who Is Going To Heaven

Greek mythology portrayed the three goddesses, the Fates, as those who spun the thread of life and determining the length of it, cut it. The Bible teaches no such thing. Though the language used in modern translations can be somewhat misleading, when looking at this difficult subject it is important that we are careful with language. For example, “God determines who is going to heaven” is true. God does determine, or decide, who is going to heaven. It doesn’t necessarily imply that God predetermines this. "God determines" not "God predetermines."

Acts 13:48 (KJV) uses the term “ordained.” To be ordained in a religious sense is to officially appoint someone to a position such as Priest or Rabbi. Keep in mind that to appoint someone doesn’t in itself determine the outcome of it. It doesn’t dictate their success or failure. To ordain in a legal sense means to establish something formerly as by law. Again, this doesn’t dictate success or failure. The law ordained isn’t necessarily implemented, enforced, obeyed or followed.

In an attempt to get a better sense of what is being implied, compare the verse with other translations. The NIV, YLT and ESV use the term appointed. To me this is a more appropriate term. It can mean previously agreed upon, and met at the appointed time, but it can also mean decorated in the sense of being well furnished or equipped. The NWT, which uses  the term “rightly disposed.”

So the reader has the choice of leaning towards a fate predetermined like the goddesses of Greek mythology mentioned above, which isn’t supported by scripture, or leaning, instead, to the peoples of the nations hearing the statement given at Acts 13:47: “For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth” they would see themselves as being given the opportunity to meet this appointment quoted from Isaiah 42:6-7. The Christian era had opened the possibility of salvation to the Gentiles; the nations.

The possibility of salvation. There would be no need for repentance of the wicked, nor the need to continue in righteousness if it were all decided for each of us beforehand. (2 Peter 3:17)

The point being that God at some point knew that the Gentiles would have this opportunity but didn’t foreordain the acceptance of those Gentiles of that opportunity, the choice was up to them.

When considering Romans 8:29-30 it is apparent that it isn’t a reference to specific individuals, but rather with a class of people. Jehovah has determined that there will be a group of people who would be justified or declared righteous rather than that specific individuals were predestined for it. This is obvious, again as with Acts 13:48, when addressing the same group of possible candidates for this group, Peter warns of the possibility of failing. (2 Peter 1:10) If God had predestined these individuals for either failing or succeeding in being a part of this group there would be nothing they could do to change that. The possibility of failing wouldn’t be for those whom God had foreordained for that position, so that isn‘t the case.

The King James Version reads the latter portion of 2 Timothy 1:9 as “before the world began.” Various translations differ: YLT "Before the time of the ages" / NIV "before the beginning of time." / Douay-Rheims "before the times of the world." / ESV "before the ages began." What exactly does this term mean? Most people tend to think of it incorrectly as being before the creation of earth and man, meaning that all since then had been foreknown by God. That isn’t the case at all.

The Greek term katabole is used, and literally means a casting or laying down. For example, throwing down a seed. At Hebrews 11:11 the term is applied to Sarah's being given the gift to "conceive" at a late age.

At Luke 11:50-51 Jesus gives us insight on when this term, the founding of the world, began. From the blood of Abel. Abel, of course, was the offspring of Adam and Eve, so this time began when the first human couple conceived and began the race of mankind.

The word "world" is translated from the Greek kosmos, which has various meanings. 1. Humankind as a whole. 2. The structure of the human circumstances into which one is born and lives and 3. The masses of humankind apart from God's servants.

So, in a sense we are all living in the same period as Abel, though he towards it’s beginning and we towards it’s conclusion. The founding of the world, in this sense, then, would be the period of time after Adam’s sin but before Adam and Eve conceived. This is the period of time in which God began to allow for the possibility of salvation from the harmful effects of Adam’s sin. Genesis 3:15, the first prophecy of the Bible, is often overlooked as the beginning of all of this because it is often viewed as strictly a pronouncement upon Adam and Eve and the Serpent. When actually it is the first indication that there would be a division of, in a sense of the word, worlds, or more accurately systems. Society. Those siding with Satan’s seed; his “offspring” so to speak and those of Jehovah’s seed from the woman, his earthly organization of faithful followers who were proved to be rightly disposed or ordained as a class of people from that moment until the conclusion of the world. Put simply, there would be those for Jehovah and those against.

The same would apply to Ephesians 1:4-5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as with 2 Timothy 1:9

God Determines Who Goes To Hell

The Bible doesn’t teach the hellfire doctrine.

At 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12, where the KJV uses the term "a strong delusion" other translations use "working of error," (ASV) "a misleading influence, a working of error," (AMP) "fooled into believing a lie." (CEV) The question is, what does this mean?

In a basic sense it means God will allow them to believe as they will, which in this case, was a lie as it was with King Ahab at 1 Kings 22:1-38; 2 Chronicles 18. If you prefer the lie there is nothing that God can do to change that except hold you accountable to it. Note that other translations use the term “judged” rather than damned as the KJV uses. Also note that, where most translations, including the KJV, use the term “found pleasure” in unrighteousness literally means in Greek “having thought well.” They have given it thought and strive in an intellectual sense, to come to the conclusion they desire.

There's Nothing You Can Do About It?

Romans 9:11-22 - Verses such as these are often judged in a predestinarian perspective which is, at best, arbitrary. Fortunately God's perfection isn't so demanding so as to feel the need to measure up completely to the standards of excellence set by those who are not qualified to judge its merits. Put simply, as the Christian would put it, most often without having even the slightest knowledge of why, it amounts to God’s grace. In other words, God’s undeserved kindness. There is nothing we can do to make it so we "deserve" it.

In the case of Jacob and Esau, the firstborn, by tradition, was expected to have a claim on birthright, but Jehovah decided that it would be Jacob. Esau didn't appreciate it. Jehovah would see to Jacob‘s prospering. Is this a case of predestination? No. Even in the womb before they were born the twins struggled, and so then Jehovah revealed to Rebekah the way things would be. (Genesis 25:22-23; also see Psalm 139:13-16)

[sdelsolray]

A repeat from 2 ½ years ago:

 

https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/determinism

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Hmm now it's plagiarism...... 

 

If your going to post someone else's words don't you think you should atleast put it in quotations and not try to take the credit? 

 

Either way. No one gives a shit. Conversing with you is a waste of time and effort. Your willfully ignorant and only want to speak on your terms. I wash my hands of you until you read some of the things I've given you and you respond in kind to my other posts. 

[alreadyGone]

What a useless ass-wipe.

[sdelsolray]

51 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Hmm now it's plagiarism...... 

 

If your going to post someone else's words don't you think you should atleast put it in quotations and not try to take the credit? 

 

Either way. No one gives a shit. Conversing with you is a waste of time and effort. Your willfully ignorant and only want to speak on your terms. I wash my hands of you until you read some of the things I've given you and you respond in kind to my other posts. 

 

Actually, it's not plagiarism.  The author from 2 ½ years ago was SemmelweisRelex posting under a different screen name.  I suspect he's peddled this as well as other topics on many other forums for many years.  Ex-C is just the latest.

[LogicalFallacy]

Food for thought

 

 

[florduh]

9 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Actually, it's not plagiarism.  The author from 2 ½ years ago was SemmelweisRelex posting under a different screen name.

What makes you think he wrote the original?

[sdelsolray]

2 minutes ago, florduh said:

What makes you think he wrote the original?

 

He says he did in the that forum's comment section to the referenced weblink I posted above.  Indeed, he was accused of plagirism there and he said he was the author.  I suppose it's possible he was lying.  I could research it further, but I don't want to spend the time.

[florduh]

23 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

I suppose it's possible he was lying.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Food for thought

 

 

 

I just roll a dice and do whatever it says. 

[alreadyGone]

"Free will"..  that's the linchpin in the Baptist's particular brand of apologetics.

There is in that same theology the concept of a supreme being who is "sovereign".

 

 

"there are no contradictions" - Ayn Rand

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

He says he did in the that forum's comment section to the referenced weblink I posted above.  Indeed, he was accused of plagirism there and he said he was the author.  I suppose it's possible he was lying.  I could research it further, but I don't want to spend the time.

 

He's not worth it. I've wasted to much time on him already myself. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

A repeat from 2 ½ years ago:

 

https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/determinism

 

I just read some of the comments from his post on that site. Looks like they like him about as much as we do lmao. 

[sdelsolray]

23 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I just read some of the comments from his post on that site. Looks like they like him about as much as we do lmao. 

 

Yeah, it looks like he's been suffering from Semmerweis Reflex for quite some time.  He certainly chose an appropriate screen name for himself here.

 

"The Semmelweis reflex or "Semmelweis effect" is a metaphor for the reflex-like tendency to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms, beliefs, or paradigms.^"

 

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Yeah, it looks like he's been suffering from Semmerweis Reflex for quite some time.  He certainly chose an appropriate screen name for himself here.

 

"The Semmelweis reflex or "Semmelweis effect" is a metaphor for the reflex-like tendency to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms, beliefs, or paradigms.^"

 

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis_reflex

 

 

Wow... yep that's an appropriate name for sure. 

[midniterider]

I remember that story...forgot the guy's name. Really interesting. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 hours ago, florduh said:

What makes you think he wrote the original?

The members of that website were slamming him in the comments for posting copyrighted material and passing it off as his own.  He claimed he wrote it and originally published it on his own website.  He further claimed that he owns the copyright and can use it ever how he wants.  One of the moderators, Nyar, directed him not to post previously copyrighted material on their website, a directive he ignored.

 

This particular fucknut seems to have made a lifelong habit out of thinking the rules don't apply to him.  

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

35 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The members of that website were slamming him in the comments for posting copyrighted material and passing it off as his own.  He claimed he wrote it and originally published it on his own website.  He further claimed that he owns the copyright and can use it ever how he wants.  One of the moderators, Nyar, directed him not to post previously copyrighted material on their website, a directive he ignored.

 

This particular fucknut seems to have made a lifelong habit out of thinking the rules don't apply to him.  

 

 

 

You sure you don't wanna bring the ban hammer down on this asshole?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

You sure you don't wanna bring the ban hammer down on this asshole?

If he will learn to abide by our rules and respect our community, he will be of great service to us here.  If not, well, he's already r-u-n-n-o-f-t once and he'll eventually do it again.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

17 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If he will learn to abide by our rules and respect our community, he will be of great service to us here.  If not, well, he's already r-u-n-n-o-f-t once and he'll eventually do it again.  

 

I have to admit. If I was questioning the Bible. Listening to him would just be another reason to leave the faith.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I have to admit. If I was questioning the Bible. Listening to him would just be another reason to leave the faith.

When I was a christian, I was taught, and I firmly believed, that my actions should be above reproach; because I might never know who might be watching.  My words and deeds were always supposed to mirror christ; because that might be the only gospel a person ever read.  Like my dad said, and still says to this day, "Be a witness always; use words when necessary."  Behavior is important, especially for a believer.

 

One has to decide for oneself if the behavior of Semi-wise reflects a christ anyone would want to believe in, or not.  

 

What I have come to realize later in life is that true integrity is keeping my thoughts, words, and actions always in consistent harmony.  Thinking one thing but saying something different is not harmony.  Saying you believe in something but not acting like it is not integrity.  If I'm being completely honest, it bothers me that I think of Semi-wise as a fucknut; but I'm not going to hide that thought behind formal pleasantries and social platitudes.  Dude's a fucknut.

[alreadyGone]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I have to admit. If I was questioning the Bible. Listening to him would just be another reason to leave the faith.

 

As I've been a member here only a short time, I've noted the same thing with regard to he and several other true believers who've passed through.

 

Unintended counter-witnessing..

 

[midniterider]

In the meantime we have a temp opening for Christian in the Lion's Den.

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, midniterider said:

In the meantime we have a temp opening for Christian in the Lion's Den.

 

 

 

 

Lmao!! I think the only Christians we get around here are part time anyway.

[Myrkhoos]

I lost it when he consistently uses ancient languages to prove his point but denied that he actually knew them or that that knowledge is necessary for a true in depth analysys of the Bible.

     Yes, basing a lot of your argument on knowing Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, manuscript history, linguistics and translation theory, without actually knowing them and then denying they are necessary. Nice one there.