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"I Believe!!!"


Joshpantera
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On 3/6/2022 at 4:49 PM, StillChristian said:

 

so to become like a perfect person (like whichever person you think of as perfect - Buddha, Jesus, ect.) would be a viable/ practical way and possibly even the best way  both to respect all life forms to the highest degree - holistically and correctly in every situation, and to be able to help any of them if possible to become a greater awareness / person / lifeform / sentient being (speaking of people) that cares about others and not just tries to - but always does - no matter what -  and could show/lead others to become as they are also.

 

That is a great way to sum up where my faith is at this time in my life.  Not because it is from "God", but because I believe it is an evidence based "ideology" that advances the moral evolution of humans, which will lead to improvement of the planet.  IF WE DON'T BLOW IT UP FIRST!  Or ruin it beyond repair.  And if we can hold things together, perhaps in another million(?) years we can unite with other planets or galaxies??  

 

You may be close to another paradigm shift.  Especially if you do some serious study of the evolution of "god", and of how we came to have the bible.  

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19 hours ago, Weezer said:

...IF WE DON'T BLOW IT UP FIRST!  Or ruin it beyond repair....

 

Consider that human beings have believed in supernatural deities and Bible-type fairy-tales since the beginning of human existence.

 

We are a strange, very flawed species.

What then is the possibility that reason and intellect will prevail?

I suspect that humans as a whole will always cling to belief in some "higher power" and a (eternal) "human spirit".

 

Most seem to need such belief so very badly.

People see what they believe.

 

 

 

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I understand what you are saying, but If you look back over the ages, it appears religion is very slowly waning.  The church finally gave in to scientific discoveries in the middle ages.  Church attendance is waning.  I agree moral evolution is moving extremely slow, and there are long term backslides. In some ways I think we are in one at this time.  And even when people give up "religion", they often start following some flambouyant, boastful "guru" that offers them a great future. 

 

I am talking about slight improvements over thousands of years. It seems things have to get so bad that people can't ignore it anymore before some people will accept change.  If you are interested, google Kohlbergs Theory of moral evolution.  And there may be some newer thought on the subject.  I studied him years ago.

 

Hopefully more people will learn critical thinking, open their minds to possibilities, and come to realize that the "higher power" is in the collective consciousness of humans.  But for years now critical thinking (and higher education) (especially in the humanities) has been discouraged by those in power.  

 

I will admit that human moral improvement looks bleak at the present time.  In my opiion there is too much "ME" thinking, and not enough "WE" thinking going on.

 

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55 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

People see what they believe.

 

So True!  And if you believe the doctrine of original sin, you believe you are too stupid to think for yourself.

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9 hours ago, Weezer said:

So True!  And if you believe the doctrine of original sin, you believe you are too stupid to think for yourself.

 

Which is true in and of itself! 

 

I admit it. I was not thinking for myself when I did believe the doctrine of original sin. I was letting everyone else think for me. And that was stupid of me to do that. When it became obvious to me that I was being stupid for doing that, I changed direction. And began the long journey of self-thought, free thought, and truth seeking. 

 

Which led to the beliefs I have listed on the OP. 

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17 hours ago, Weezer said:

So True!  And if you believe the doctrine of original sin, you believe you are too stupid to think for yourself.

A self fulfilling prophecy that has served churches (BUT NOT HUMANS) very well through the years.

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Anyone else questioning why Misterwhiskers654, and Stillchristian came here seeming rational and interested, gave it a shot, and disappeared?  Perhaps the same person? 

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On 3/9/2022 at 3:34 PM, Weezer said:

Anyone else questioning why Misterwhiskers654, and Stillchristian came here seeming rational and interested, gave it a shot, and disappeared?  Perhaps the same person? 

 

I'll check. 

 

 

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On 3/6/2022 at 5:04 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

This is coming from left field because it doesn't follow in any way what the WPM believes. There's nothing about everyone's individual consciousness and awareness melting and merging into one single consciousness like a pot of single consciousness stew. In fact, there's nothing about everyone becoming just like you and then merging together. That concept is absent altogether from the WPM. 

 

 

This doesn't follow from anything that I can see either. In fact, we have entire threads devoted to the point that 'nothing = something' is a fallacious foundation to try and build up from. The only real arguments are as to what exactly that something that equals everything is - ontological arguments to do with the very nature of reality. 

 

 

Ok, now I see where this is coming from. You had projected some of your personal ideas towards the WPM earlier. Now we're getting down to what they are and why you asserted them previously. 

 

I'll entertain these ideas for sake of discussion.

 

What you're talking about here is roughly, in a sort of way, something that I've recently considered from Tom Campbell. He is a scientist and idealist philosopher. His ideas basically state that he thinks consciousness is fundamental and that it's working towards something. That evolution has been moving towards evolving ways of consciousness to experience itself. In this conceptualization, Tom puts forward the idea that over time empathy increases which decreases entropy. There's a clear lack of today's empathy in the old religions and politics of the bronze age when there religions got moving. Tom comes right out and makes a point of that. I haven't completely wrapped my mind around the theory in full. But this is what he says. 

 

And he goes much further. He basically said something that I recently thought of recently too. He wonders if nature has been moving towards a global civilization, then galactic civilization, and on to universal civilization. I've wondered about this too because I'm already familiar with the concept of level 1, 2, 3, and so civilizations. Where level 1 is to harness the power of an entire planet. Level 2 is to harness the power of a local star. Level 3 could jump ahead to harnessing the power of an entire galaxy. And further levels could go to galactic clusters and essentially an entire universe. 

 

What's missing from the usual consideration is how consciousness and awareness fits in to the concept of level 1,2,3.... civilizations. And Tom basically makes some projections based on his big TOE. His ideas basically amount to consciousness learning to work as a whole to get to a level one type civilization through this process of increasing empathy and decreasing entropy. That nature has been flowing in this general direction through the medium of human beings and human interaction and experience. 

 

It seems as though unification of consciousness would factor in to that projection. And then greater levels as the levels of technology increase. And that the road to getting there, what all of the suffering and survival of the fittest has been about all along, is increasing empathy and lowering entropy. 

 

As to reincarnation being removed or censored from christianity, is entirely speculative of course. 

 

It's not a thing in Judaism, so I think we can pretty much rule out the idea of it being censored from the existing ideas that come from that direction. But it's possible that the gnostics and anyone familiar with eastern philosophy and Buddhism could have known about it in the near east at that time. There have been different types of Buddhist influence arguments. And if those were censored by the rise of orthodox thinking then it's entirely possible that those ideas could have been censored. We just don't have solid evidence that this was ever the case. We'd have to have some sort of texts or allusion to texts that had to do with the concept of reincarnation. 

 

Have you come across anything like that? 

 

what is Wpm?  i do not know alot about Judiasm, but recently heard that they (at least used to - maybe at the time of Jesus) believed in reincarnation.  i may have heard that before in the past also.  but also there is the whole hidden wisdom of Judaism which i have never studied alot into.

 

someone was asking a question on a Christian forum recently, maybe it would even be good to link to it here if i could find it - for their benefit, if nothing else.  there are certain boxes you are expected to fit your mind into when you are a Chrisitan - on a Christian forum.  they like to ban people there.  not so much of late.  perhaps this is a gradual awakening of or fast even awakening on their part - more like a political correct thing perhaps - something they see reflects badly on their behaviours (the owners of the website).  because the Bible says - Seventy times Seven.  most every Christian on that forum knows of that verse too, and yet over the years they have banned so many people.  i have only been there a few very few years and many have been banned in that time alone so i guess many more have in the past and from things i have read about that website also.  it seems very hurtful to do that to people... and yet people aren't even allowed to talk about these kind of things there.  it has been very depressing.

 

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On 3/6/2022 at 5:04 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

This is coming from left field because it doesn't follow in any way what the WPM believes. There's nothing about everyone's individual consciousness and awareness melting and merging into one single consciousness like a pot of single consciousness stew. In fact, there's nothing about everyone becoming just like you and then merging together. That concept is absent altogether from the WPM. 

 

 

This doesn't follow from anything that I can see either. In fact, we have entire threads devoted to the point that 'nothing = something' is a fallacious foundation to try and build up from. The only real arguments are as to what exactly that something that equals everything is - ontological arguments to do with the very nature of reality. 

 

 

Ok, now I see where this is coming from. You had projected some of your personal ideas towards the WPM earlier. Now we're getting down to what they are and why you asserted them previously. 

 

I'll entertain these ideas for sake of discussion.

 

What you're talking about here is roughly, in a sort of way, something that I've recently considered from Tom Campbell. He is a scientist and idealist philosopher. His ideas basically state that he thinks consciousness is fundamental and that it's working towards something. That evolution has been moving towards evolving ways of consciousness to experience itself. In this conceptualization, Tom puts forward the idea that over time empathy increases which decreases entropy. There's a clear lack of today's empathy in the old religions and politics of the bronze age when there religions got moving. Tom comes right out and makes a point of that. I haven't completely wrapped my mind around the theory in full. But this is what he says. 

 

And he goes much further. He basically said something that I recently thought of recently too. He wonders if nature has been moving towards a global civilization, then galactic civilization, and on to universal civilization. I've wondered about this too because I'm already familiar with the concept of level 1, 2, 3, and so civilizations. Where level 1 is to harness the power of an entire planet. Level 2 is to harness the power of a local star. Level 3 could jump ahead to harnessing the power of an entire galaxy. And further levels could go to galactic clusters and essentially an entire universe. 

 

What's missing from the usual consideration is how consciousness and awareness fits in to the concept of level 1,2,3.... civilizations. And Tom basically makes some projections based on his big TOE. His ideas basically amount to consciousness learning to work as a whole to get to a level one type civilization through this process of increasing empathy and decreasing entropy. That nature has been flowing in this general direction through the medium of human beings and human interaction and experience. 

 

It seems as though unification of consciousness would factor in to that projection. And then greater levels as the levels of technology increase. And that the road to getting there, what all of the suffering and survival of the fittest has been about all along, is increasing empathy and lowering entropy. 

 

As to reincarnation being removed or censored from christianity, is entirely speculative of course. 

 

It's not a thing in Judaism, so I think we can pretty much rule out the idea of it being censored from the existing ideas that come from that direction. But it's possible that the gnostics and anyone familiar with eastern philosophy and Buddhism could have known about it in the near east at that time. There have been different types of Buddhist influence arguments. And if those were censored by the rise of orthodox thinking then it's entirely possible that those ideas could have been censored. We just don't have solid evidence that this was ever the case. We'd have to have some sort of texts or allusion to texts that had to do with the concept of reincarnation. 

 

Have you come across anything like that? 

 

sorry, i did not read all of this yet.  i will try to.

 

as for projections - they go both ways - and many ways.  you are what you are and i am what i am.  whenever people try to fit you - in to any box that isn't you - but is them, i guess that is projection.  probably hard to avoid huh? :)

 

because when talking about all kinds of things - like here, or online, like many many people do - pages and pages of talking - they are talking from what they are thinking and how they are thinking and talk, and how they just write things down. 

 

i wrote, am writing most of these messages fairly fast, so i hope you all will not take what i say too seriously or negatively really, because i don't mean it like that.  just kinda 'talking' here, you know?  like in a conversation.  i think because of the whole not-in-person thing with the internet people can read all kinds of attitudes or meanings into what you say (that aren't always there).  so, i guess i thought to say that, so you would have a better idea.  that i'm just writing these out at-the-moment, trying to think of things to say, and saying what comes to mind is alot how i'm writing here.  hope that helps.

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12 minutes ago, StillChristian said:

what is Wpm?

 

World Pantheism Movement. Your first post was responding to what I posted about the WPM beliefs statement. I was just making reference back to it. 

 

18 minutes ago, StillChristian said:

i do not know alot about Judiasm, but recently heard that they (at least used to - maybe at the time of Jesus) believed in reincarnation.  i may have heard that before in the past also.  but also there is the whole hidden wisdom of Judaism which i have never studied alot into.

 

I'd have to look into that. You see and hear a lot of things moderating religious debate forums. Reincarnation in judaism isn't something I don't recall. But as I was saying, I'm open to hearing new arguments. Buddhist influence is an argument out there, so it's not too far fetched that reincarnation could have been floating around in the region. 

 

7 minutes ago, StillChristian said:

i wrote, am writing most of these messages fairly fast, so i hope you all will not take what i say too seriously or negatively really, because i don't mean it like that.  just kinda 'talking' here, you know?  like in a conversation.  i think because of the whole not-in-person thing with the internet people can read all kinds of attitudes or meanings into what you say.  so, i guess i thought to say that, so you would have a better idea.  that i'm just writing these out at-the-moment, trying to think of things to say, and saying what comes to mind is alot how i'm writing here.

 

People seem to appreciate you bringing what looks like a positive attitude to the table. To be honest, by and large, most christians who visit here come with just plain bad attitudes. Closed off. Heels dug in deep. Which is unnecessary. Having a nice conversation is preferred. 

 

Thanks. 

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34 minutes ago, StillChristian said:

because the Bible says - Seventy times Seven.  most every Christian on that forum knows of that verse too, and yet over the years they have banned so many people.  i have only been there a few very few years and many have been banned in that time alone so i guess many more have in the past and from things i have read about that website also.  it seems very hurtful to do that to people... and yet people aren't even allowed to talk about these kind of things there.  it has been very depressing.

 

We've stopped believing in christianity mainly because of noticing contradictions, inconsistencies, and irreconcilable problems with both our local churches and from within the bible itself. It often started out by noticing problems at someone's local church. Looking deeper, however, discovering a rabbit hole of issues. And then at some point realizing that it's wrong in X ways for X reasons. 

 

Getting beyond the emotional attachment to the religion, then things can begin clear up more and more and it's possible to look at the situation more objectively. Myself and other members here have been banned and censored from christian forums many times. I don't bother with it anymore. The problem is that the people there are generally closed off to anything that may threaten their emotional attachments to the bible and christianity. 

 

And there's a certain threat from people who were once christian and judged it as wrong and left. Much more of a threat than from people who were life long atheists and never believed in the first place. That's why the "no true scotsman" fallacy is often employed. They have to try and find some emotional safety in believing that anyone who left the church never was a "true christian." When that's just silly. Of course people weren't pretending or faking all those years, or most of their lives, to be christian and to believe it. I believed in SDAism until age 15. I was born into it. I trusted my parents and the church. I had no reason to doubt it. Until I did. 

 

Then I had to wonder if maybe some other denomination was true even though SDAism is not? So I went looking. And I went looking back to ancient Judaism, too. I just wanted to try and figure out what's true. I found a lot of dark secrets on that journey. But I kept pressing on because it's more important to me to discover what's actually true than otherwise. Even if the truth is ugly. Ultimately, it hasn't really turned out that way. But it got ugly where christianity is concerned. Leaving beyond that and looking towards the future and possibilities, I've found more positive oriented territory. But to get to that territory did take a long time. 

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41 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

World Pantheism Movement. Your first post was responding to what I posted about the WPM beliefs statement. I was just making reference back to it. 

 

 

oh okay, World Pantheism. 

 

41 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I'd have to look into that. You see and hear a lot of things moderating religious debate forums. Reincarnation in judaism isn't something I don't recall. But as I was saying, I'm open to hearing new arguments. Buddhist influence is an argument out there, so it's not too far fetched that reincarnation could have been floating around in the region. 

 

 

yes, i'm not sure.  i am not greatly studied on lots of subjects.  and also forget things i have studied in the past i guess also.  i guess all that is not all that important to me probably, or not the path i have taken in a search for truth so much/too much.

 

41 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

People seem to appreciate you bringing what looks like a positive attitude to the table. To be honest, by and large, most christians who visit here come with just plain bad attitudes. Closed off. Heels dug in deep. Which is unnecessary. Having a nice conversation is preferred. 

 

Thanks. 

 

that is good to hear.  i feel like i found the truth years ago, and then, you know how people like that can be lol.  they want to tell others about it. :) or if they they think they already know, i know.  i used to just think i 'knew' too ...... but it was alot of it just what i had been taught growing up - of which i have been grateful for those teachings - even though given in imperfection - a level of understanding (i believe), amongst very imperfect people who could not help maybe who they were too much or how they came to believe.  just sorta happened i think.  karma... good and bad - creating who they were - in all their personalities and dna and what they were drawn to believe and or think... and over time, changing, not questioning (enough or just questioning how they were able to or thought to) - like one would if their mind was suddenly opened - or over time wondered and sought truth more and more or just kept questioning until all the answers came.  which has been my experience.  that all the answers come... eventually.  though one can lose those same answers too it seems - over time.  i believe (don't know 100%) that it has to do with living the truth you find - when you find it - or close enough to the timeframe you find it - out in your life - to that degree - you can know more, or hold on to whatever you already 'know'.  not talking about all logical knowing here, but from within - where.  the spirit (in Christianity it would have to be termed), though i have talked many ways and not always in step with non-banning limits of regular Christianity.  lol  but in order to get through to 'close-minded' Christians - you have to kind of talk like them... so it seems, i have found - or the mind shuts down. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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48 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

We've stopped believing in christianity mainly because of noticing contradictions, inconsistencies, and irreconcilable problems with both our local churches and from within the bible itself. It often started out by noticing problems at someone's local church. Looking deeper, however, discovering a rabbit hole of issues. And then at some point realizing that it's wrong in X ways for X reasons. 

 

 

48 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

Then I had to wonder if maybe some other denomination was true even though SDAism is not? So I went looking. And I went looking back to ancient Judaism, too. I just wanted to try and figure out what's true. I found a lot of dark secrets on that journey. But I kept pressing on because it's more important to me to discover what's actually true than otherwise. Even if the truth is ugly. Ultimately, it hasn't really turned out that way. But it got ugly where christianity is concerned. Leaving beyond that and looking towards the future and possibilities, I've found more positive oriented territory. But to get to that territory did take a long time. 

 

just to answer part of what you are talking about here.  sorry, i feel like only answering part of alot of messages isn't fair or kind really always ("be slow to speak, and quick to hear"), but started reading this and this came to mind:

 

i think they have allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll (religions) been changed over time.  people don't realize the entrophy that has maybe happened - due to - not-very-spiritual, not-very-knowing people  (many of Power and not great people).  they don't know about or think about how the Laws of God/ the Universe/ whichever name to Call it you choose - might work on people - and within people and groups of people to allow/ change what was once given - maybe complete truth (if one understood it - correctly that is).  and allow Scriptures of ANy group to be changed - due to the people who were involved in it all - not being very good people.  but still allowing the Truth to be found somehow maybe - though hidden, but not completely to the more Sincere people out there - who will not follow All that too much or very long time and not even get involved in it all (tithing much, preaching Untruths to others) - thereby heaping up bad Karma for themselves ("let not many of you  become teachers, knowing that...").

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5 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

I believed in SDAism until age 15. I was born into it. I trusted my parents and the church. I had no reason to doubt it. Until I did.


So you believed it only until you were old enough to think for yourself!  I don’t know much about Seventh Day Adventism: are children baptized or otherwise initiated into it?  Before the age of 15 did you make some profession of faith or suchlike?
 

I wish I had started to see through it as early in life as you did!

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:45 PM, Weezer said:

I understand what you are saying, but If you look back over the ages, it appears religion is very slowly waning.  The church finally gave in to scientific discoveries in the middle ages.  Church attendance is waning.  I agree moral evolution is moving extremely slow, and there are long term backslides. In some ways I think we are in one at this time.  And even when people give up "religion", they often start following some flambouyant, boastful "guru" that offers them a great future. 

 

I am talking about slight improvements over thousands of years. It seems things have to get so bad that people can't ignore it anymore before some people will accept change.  If you are interested, google Kohlbergs Theory of moral evolution.  And there may be some newer thought on the subject.  I studied him years ago.

 

Hopefully more people will learn critical thinking, open their minds to possibilities, and come to realize that the "higher power" is in the collective consciousness of humans.  But for years now critical thinking (and higher education) (especially in the humanities) has been discouraged by those in power.  

 

I will admit that human moral improvement looks bleak at the present time.  In my opiion there is too much "ME" thinking, and not enough "WE" thinking going on.

 

 

the important thing (i think) is to work on yourself.  we can worry about others, the planet, evolving it all - but only the 'aware' and 'awake' can really evolve, work on themselves.  we don't want to be followers - except to follow the good.

 

over time thngs can change - but it can be out of balance also.  i see this in my own life so much - the imbalance.  to work on that - to bring one's self to greater wholeness by working on one's self and only help others as much as we feel led to or feels right and trying to treat them well without letting them treat us not great - except where it would be the better way to do - forgive others and we wil be forgiven.  but also we can stand up for what is right.  all these things are so complicated to work out with a system probably so ... maybe that is why many believe in following the Spirit/ listening to God, ect.  it is another way to follow - a way that leads the way, and helps us (hopefully) out of not as great ways of being/ thinking/ feeling/ existing - to better ways.  helps us in ways we might never be able to (holistically) figure out on our own.  but maybe we don't need to.

 

and maybe we don't need to wait for the World or other humans to evolve before we can.  we can start right now.

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19 minutes ago, StillChristian said:

 

and maybe we don't need to wait for the World or other humans to evolve before we can.  we can start right now.

 

Very true!  You probably have heard the term, "be the change you want to see in the world."

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2 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Very true!  You probably have heard the term, "be the change you want to see in the world."

 

yes.  i cannot use the emoticons, sorry, so ... or i would maybe with different posts here.  could be children 'know' the better way to be.  to take the good ways children are and add to that wisdom and maturity, keep the innocence.  add to them knowledge and experience.  stay real in other words.  or become 'real' again.  like angels kinda... but human.  Matt 10:16

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On 3/7/2022 at 2:22 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

Bumped for StillChristian's attention.

 

Would you please do me the courtesy of explaining in your own words why you are still a Christian?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Re-bumped for StillChristian's attention.

 

Please answer the question that I first asked of you seventeen days ago.

 

Here it is again, in case you don't recall.

 

Please explain to me in your own words why you are still a Christian, StillChristian.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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On 3/7/2022 at 2:24 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

Bumped for StillChristian's attention.

 

Would you please do me the courtesy of answering my question?

 

Where did you get the idea that the universe came from nothing?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

Re-bumped for StillChristian's attention.

 

Please answer the question I first asked you sixteen days ago.

 

Here it is again, in case you don't recall it.

 

Where did you get the idea that the universe came from nothing?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

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On 3/22/2022 at 1:35 PM, TABA said:


So you believed it only until you were old enough to think for yourself!  I don’t know much about Seventh Day Adventism: are children baptized or otherwise initiated into it?  Before the age of 15 did you make some profession of faith or suchlike?
 

I wish I had started to see through it as early in life as you did!

 

Yeah, they have baptisms in water tanks or at rivers, lakes, or beaches. It's one of those fully emersed under water denominations. Mine was around age 12, at the beach. I have, however, seen to it that my name was removed from their membership. 

 

 

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On 3/22/2022 at 4:15 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Please explain to me in your own words why you are still a Christian, StillChristian.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Fair question. 

 

You wanna try and answer it @StillChristian

 

On 3/22/2022 at 4:19 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Where did you get the idea that the universe came from nothing?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Does he think the universe came from nothing or does he think that atheists think the universe came from nothing? 

 

 

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