Serious mind/body question

[florduh]

As I investigate spiritual/mystical/alternative healing practices there is one underlying belief there that gives me pause.

 

The accepted explanation for disease in this arena is that it is caused not by genetics or even necessarily toxins but rather by improper thinking, wrong alignment, not forgiving, not expressing total love, stressful negative emotions and such. I refer to Ayurveda and shamanic traditions embracing reiki, meditation, yoga, acupuncture and such as techniques to cure disease. Of course there is a mind/body connection and nobody denies that. But to say we technically (unwittingly) give ourselves cancer, arthritis and other chronic conditions and then can rid ourselves of illness with some kind of "right thinking" poses one killer question for me: Since babies and animals are also sometimes born with or develop chronic, fatal diseases and tumors . . . then stress, wrong thinking, resentment and having fucked up one's qi could have nothing to do with them developing the disease. The theory, particularly regarding stress as a factor, seems plausible until I hit this brick wall.

 

Can anyone find an apologetic angle that gets around this huge flaw? Or are we prepared to just play the "hokum card?"

 

[Joshpantera]

I don't see how they can reasonably deny that genetics have to play the bigger role. Like you said, stress and certain things could perhaps 

add to what very clearly is caused by genetics in most cases, but to excuse genetics and claim it's mind only doesn't wash where your examples are concerned. People may have strong belief in getting better from cancer or something similar, and then do it. But how can you deny that genetics played first fiddle in the problem arising to begin with? 

 

 

[florduh]

50 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

I don't see how they can reasonably deny that genetics have to play the bigger role.

Ostensibly a healthy immune system and balanced energy created by "right" thinking trumps any genetic predisposition. It is true that stress is a killer and laughter is the best medicine and a patient's attitude and beliefs weigh heavily in the curative process. I do get that this is about moving beyond the old models and embracing quantum concepts; there is no physical substance as it's all energy, waves, frequency and pattern and therefore more in the realm of consciousness/thought rather than the world of nuts and bolts and billiard balls interacting.

 

My real issue is with the onset of disease being a manifestation or "wrong" thinking. Stress can contribute to giving you cancer, but there must be other factors they choose to ignore given that even newborns and animals are sometimes born with deadly disease, deformity and chronic conditions.

 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Is the claim that these factors are always and only the cause of diseases? I get that they (stress, rage, anxiety, depression) can exacerbate immune system problems, but to claim that they always are the cause seems absurd. My guess is that if that is the actual claim, they would default to the past lives idea and dragging in karma or stress from a previous incarnation. I've been away from all of that for so long I don't know what they claim these days. 

 

[florduh]

13 minutes ago, Fuego said:

Is the claim that these factors are always and only the cause of diseases? I get that they (stress, rage, anxiety, depression) can exacerbate immune system problems, but to claim that they always are the cause seems absurd. My guess is that if that is the actual claim, they would default to the past lives idea and dragging in karma or stress from a previous incarnation. I've been away from all of that for so long I don't know what they claim these days. 

 

Of course the individuals in this current movement are all over the place with specifics. I'm too lazy to collect and categorize them all, though some do reference karma and past lives. I would be interested to hear from some true believer who can explain the problem we have with diseased babies and animals.

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

Ostensibly a healthy immune system and balanced energy created by "right" thinking trumps any genetic predisposition. It is true that stress is a killer and laughter is the best medicine and a patient's attitude and beliefs weigh heavily in the curative process. I do get that this is about moving beyond the old models and embracing quantum concepts; there is no physical substance as it's all energy, waves, frequency and pattern and therefore more in the realm of consciousness/thought rather than the world of nuts and bolts and billiard balls interacting.

 

My real issue is with the onset of disease being a manifestation or "wrong" thinking. Stress can contribute to giving you cancer, but there must be other factors they choose to ignore given that even newborns and animals are sometimes born with deadly disease, deformity and chronic conditions.

 

 

You should have seen the look on the faces of two Pentecostal missionaries who had previously been bragging about faith healing and then shut down when I brought my crippled, rare form of dwarfism step daughter with me to check in on the job site. I could see the, "oh shit!" look in their eyes as they tried to act cool and play down the situation. It shut them up. I didn't hear any more bragging around about the missionary field or healing.  

 

I imagine it would be no different facing down the new ager's you bring to light here? 

 

Did wrong thinking deform this child in the womb prior right or wrong "thought?" Prior to thought of any variety?

 

More importantly, can "right thought" reverse the physical conditions of being crippled, or the rare form of dwarfism, more specifically?

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, florduh said:

I do get that this is about moving beyond the old models and embracing quantum concepts; there is no physical substance as it's all energy, waves, frequency and pattern and therefore more in the realm of consciousness/thought rather than the world of nuts and bolts and billiard balls interacting.

 

They have to face the fact that even though physical substance breaks down to energy and waves, perhaps even consciousness if we entertain that, all of these diseases and deformity stand as is regardless of energy or consciousness at the root base all material in the universe. It still is what it is regardless. And thinking doesn't change the physical like that. Thinking of regrowing a limb, doesn't regrow a limb. Even in the event that all is mind disease and deformity through genetic factors persist. 

 

What these new age adherents seem to be missing is that this is how nature works. If the universe is mind, THIS display of disease and deformity that we observe is how all of this mind apparently plays out. Especially the part about mind not growing limbs or erasing deformity. If it could work that way, then you'd expect that we'd see evidence of it working that way. But we see the opposite. 

[midniterider]

Imo, alternative medicine like reiki, meditation, yoga, acupuncture are ok if the 'disease' isnt life threatening and you have pain under control. Maybe you want some sort of life improvement over time that regular medicine isnt fixing. Neither alternative medicine nor traditional medicine are a cure-all, though. 

 

Saying disease is a failure in the positive thought department is like a Christian saying you didnt pray hard enough. Magic makes me feel good, but the evidence is against it curing medical issues, especially in a timely manner. 

 

Use a variety of approaches. Diversify your health portfolio.

[florduh]

So I'm seeing no apologetics addressing this conundrum. Perhaps nobody at Ex-C has  New Age (for lack of a better term) beliefs.

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, florduh said:

So I'm seeing no apologetics addressing this conundrum. Perhaps nobody at Ex-C has  New Age (for lack of a better term) beliefs.

 

I know this spiritual healer in Lynchburg, Tennessee ... Jack something ... Jack Daniels, yeah that's it. He cures every damn thing.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm not a believer,  and certainly not an apologist; but, if I had to come up with some kind of woo bullshit explanation, I'd say that in order to maintain balance and harmony in nature, then for every person who lives longer than the alloted 70 years, there has to be a puppy born blind or an infant who doesn't live.  Not sure how I would explain the infant mortality rate during the Middle Ages, though.

[freshstart]

I'm not

22 hours ago, florduh said:

I would be interested to hear from some true believer who can explain the problem we have with diseased babies and animals.

I'm not certain, but I think "true believers" (of the Eastern philosophical persuasion) would challenge the notion that diseased babies and animals are a "problem."  We perceive it as a problem, but that is our perception.  (I imagine that if plants and animals had the same consciousness as humans do, they would see it as a "problem" being harvested for food.)

It might not be possible to see the sum of all parts through our human lens. 

I don't know that all mystical/spiritual/alternative healing practices necessary have the same underlying belief that the way we think/feel is what leads to disease.  Is that your understanding?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXHKVWx6ogs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYhgjX6t_Ko

 

 

[florduh]

1 hour ago, freshstart said:

I'm not certain, but I think "true believers" (of the Eastern philosophical persuasion) would challenge the notion that diseased babies and animals are a "problem."

I am interested in seeing a believer mount an actual argument that the existence of babies and animals born with disease do not negate the theory that we create all disease through our negative thoughts.

 

I do not doubt that healing can come from thoughts and beliefs. I think it happens frequently, even to the extent that actual medicine prescribed by a medical doctor work at least partially because the patient has faith in it. I grant the powerful mind/body connection that allows the placebo effect and improved outcomes and also that anger, stress and such can cause a myriad of physical conditions. The problem is when someone claims one's mindset/beliefs/attitude actually causes all disease. Not all of them do but some have stated as much.

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, florduh said:

I am interested in seeing a believer mount an actual argument that the existence of babies and animals born with disease do not negate the theory that we create all disease through our negative thoughts.

 

 

 

I suppose a pregnant person would have to be suffering some emotional/mental problem which somehow caused malformation of the baby... in order to maintain the disease via bad thoughts idea. Sounds like bullshit but there it is. 

 

Why not just try something (like reiki) and see if it works. If it doesnt then you can either rip on it in this thread or just pretend you never tied it and remain a staunch skeptic.

 

Oh I saw something today: https://www.npr.org/2021/06/29/1011415113/awe-appears-to-be-awfully-beneficial?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

 

Maybe get yourself some awe! My awe is sunsets off my porch. Good stuff.

 

[florduh]

8 hours ago, midniterider said:

Why not just try something (like reiki) and see if it works. If it doesnt then you can either rip on it in this thread or just pretend you never tied it and remain a staunch skeptic.

That's not even near the topic of this thread. Read opening post again.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, florduh said:

That's not even near the topic of this thread. Read opening post again.

 

I will research some alternative medicine stuff. 

[midniterider]

"Or are we prepared to just play the "hokum card?"

 

I read a bit about accupuncture on the nih.gov website. nih says it appears to help relieve pain. They dont mention the cause of pain.

 

...

 

What the Science Says About the Effectiveness of Acupuncture

Results from a number of studies suggest that acupuncture may help ease types of pain that are often chronic such as low-back pain, neck pain, and osteoarthritis/knee pain. It also may help reduce the frequency of tension headaches and prevent migraine headaches. Therefore, acupuncture appears to be a reasonable option for people with chronic pain to consider. However, clinical practice guidelines are inconsistent in recommendations about acupuncture.

 

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-in-depth

[florduh]

On 7/12/2021 at 5:14 PM, florduh said:

"...But to say we technically (unwittingly) give ourselves cancer, arthritis and other chronic conditions and then can rid ourselves of illness with some kind of "right thinking" poses one killer question for me: Since babies and animals are also sometimes born with or develop chronic, fatal diseases and tumors . . . then stress, wrong thinking, resentment and having fucked up one's qi could have nothing to do with them developing the disease. The theory, particularly regarding stress as a factor, seems plausible until I hit this brick wall."

Again, this is my topic, not whether or not specific alternative therapies actually work.

 

That is, can some believer please provide evidence or reasoning to reconcile the proposal that though ALL disease is ostensibly brought on by our negative thinking/behaviors we still see newborns and animals with disease.

[midniterider]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm out. 

[Margee]

17 hours ago, florduh said:

 

 

That is, can some believer please provide evidence or reasoning to reconcile the proposal that though ALL disease is ostensibly brought on by our negative thinking/behaviors we still see newborns and animals with disease.

 

I also will wait for the believer who can explain this. I have asked this question over and over again in some of the new age /mind-body groups I have belonged to. I can never get a straight answer. Ever. As a matter of fact, they don't like me to ask these hard questions. They say... ''It's  part of the plan, learning lessons, past lives, blah, blah, blah''. I am always disappointed in those answers.

 

The only conclusion that I can conjure up is that the brain must grow and develop to a level of consciousness that a young one would understand that he has the ability to heal his body. But by that time, he could be dead. So that doesn't make sense either. It's seems the mind-body connection is for adults only.

 

I'll wait for the person that can come along and explain this simple, yet difficult question. 

[freshstart]

On 7/13/2021 at 8:08 AM, florduh said:

Perhaps nobody at Ex-C has  New Age (for lack of a better term) beliefs.

Perhaps some at Ex-C do have New Age beliefs.  Maybe they just don't subscribe to the specific belief that "technically (unwittingly) we give ourselves cancer, arthritis and other chronic conditions and then can rid ourselves of illness with some kind of 'right thinking'."

[florduh]

11 hours ago, Margee said:

I can never get a straight answer. Ever.

Hell, I can't even keep this discussion on topic. 

 

Though many Ex-C folks subscribe to various belief systems that would fall under the New Age umbrella it does seem that none are interested in the mind/body part of the general teaching.

 

I am convinced of the ability of the mind/subconscious to physically and dramatically affect the body in both positive and negative ways. But those babies and animals....

 

 

[Margee]

36 minutes ago, florduh said:

Hell, I can't even keep this discussion on topic. 

 

Though many Ex-C folks subscribe to various belief systems that would fall under the New Age umbrella it does seem that none are interested in the mind/body part of the general teaching.

 

I am convinced of the ability of the mind/subconscious to physically and dramatically affect the body in both positive and negative ways. But those babies and animals....

 

 

So this just came through my timeline on a mind-body group I follow. I also believe in keeping emotions in check. That's why I follow some of these groups. They help me to stay grounded to a certain degree.

 

I responded '' So this would mean it's very important to keep the cells of the body as healthy as we can?'' (by the way, I already know how important this is Lol)

 

 So the 'mind-body' has also got to do with the cells of the body. Duh.  If the cells have gone wrong, then disease  can take over and  show you that not everyone can heal themselves as when the cancer cell grows or any of the other fatal diagnosis. This would include babies and animals who are born with 'cell weaknesses'.

 

 

[florduh]

Mysterious ways...

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

I personally have contact with an ordained daoist priest/university phd in contemplative studies, translator of ancient chinese. The works.

     I discussed some health issues one time. There is no such idea that "wrongthink" from what I gather, is the root of all diseases. Authentic TCM ( trad chinese med) uses a whole host of diagnostic and treatment modalities, which are still studied at uni level and modified and improved upon till this day. Why would they use those of they think it is all wrongthink? This ignorance or degrading of the body seems foreign to chinese culture where emotions have assigned body parts, where the highest spirit resides in the physical heart. Plus , they do think we are part of the Dao to some extent so it isn't just "we" as cause or effect of stuff. 

     New age stuff seems to have a very capitalist individualistic spirit undearneath all the language, which I find incompatible with most ancient cultures anyway. "I" cause X, "I" solve X with MY mind

 

     Furthermore I DID read a book by a psychotherapist detailing cases of cancers in remission, pain, etc resolving after trauma treatment, but they would not say it is all bk of mental stuff.