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I Realised Something


SeaJay
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1 hour ago, SeaJay said:

Trying to think logically about it. 

 

Exactly, keep it up 😀

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On 7/22/2021 at 10:20 AM, SeaJay said:

Oh yes, you’re right 😀

 

Kind of the opposite of the recomandation :)

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4 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Thanks both. I’m feeling a bit better after rationalising it and reading both your posts. 
 

The funny thing is (and cutting a long story short), knowing what I know about this friend, if anyone was going to knock my door and tell me they had a message for me - it would definitely be this friend. But not only did they say nothing of the sort, they said things that sounded to me, just plain wrong. 
 

Also, I think to myself, if this was a sign:

 

(a) I admitted to myself that Christianity probably isn’t true, 11 days ago, so why did I have to wait so long, why not 10 minutes after I admitted it, or even two or three days later? The timing doesn’t really make sense, unless it’s nothing but a coincidence

 

(b) I’m utterly convinced that a supreme creator of the universe could let me know in no uncertain terms that I was wrong; I know they could do a much better job than that (and I’m not even trying to be remotely sarcastic or disrespectful in saying that). So what my friend said (and didn’t say) also doesn’t make much sense, unless it’s nothing but a coincidence. 
 

Trying to think logically about it. 

Yeah. 

 

Plus, let's say all current scientific theories are wrong ( incomplete, biased , etc any definition of wrong) . Evolution is wrong, quantum physics, germ theory of disease. So? That is WONDERFUL news for science. It means you can get to new, better models. Proving "science" wrong is what science does. :)

.      And the fact that he came to you. You were a Christian, with Christian friends in a predominant christian country. Running into a Christian telling how Christianity is true is not THAT impressive :))

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I think this question got lost in the Edit I added after it. I thought I’d repost it here as it’s very relevant. 
 

When you left the faith, did you worry that you were seeing  signs, or, being communicated with in some way, to show that you were wrong?

 

I have this anxiety that it might be happening now and then.”

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1 hour ago, SeaJay said:

"When you left the faith, did you worry that you were seeing  signs, or, being communicated with in some way, to show that you were wrong?

 

I have this anxiety that it might be happening now and then.”

 

Hi Seajay

Good to see you are still around and questioning. 

 

I did have a little bit of this, but as I studied further into how the brain works, and how easily we can deceive ourselves by interpreting random events as "signs" I realized it was just my Christian upbringing and indoctrination working on my mind. 

 

You might find this is happening to you? It's mainly a fear response in reaction to a perceived threat I.e. what if you're wrong?

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12 hours ago, SeaJay said:

I think this question got lost in the Edit I added after it. I thought I’d repost it here as it’s very relevant. 
 

When you left the faith, did you worry that you were seeing  signs, or, being communicated with in some way, to show that you were wrong?

 

I have this anxiety that it might be happening now and then.”

 

I had the opposite of this. I prayed for a sign I was wrong but I was very specific about the prayer. I wanted it to be undeniable that it was a sign from the Almighty himself. 

 

 

It didn't happen. 

 

 

A sign from God couldn't be passed off as a coincidence. He supposedly walked on water as Jesus. Led the children of isreal by a pillar of fire and a pillar of smoke, blasted away two cities and turned people into salt. 

 

If he can do that. He should be able to give all his followers proof of his existence and he can't. Bc he's not there

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Thanks both, that’s really helpful and eases my anxiety a bit. It’s odd that I can’t really think like this. I’m trying but I’m either not capable or, if it’s just a case of still learning, then I have been learning for years and still can’t seem to do it. Sometimes it’s like I’m a child who needs comforting or tutoring or something. Perhaps it’s a case of I can and do think this way, but I need to hear it from another person to confirm my own conclusions (so reassurance then). Is it called critical thinking? 

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@SeaJay, it's okay to trust yourself.  Truth rings true; and our minds are designed to recognize that.  If something causes so much doubt and confusion, it's not likely to be true; and it is perfectly fine to ignore that topic until/unless further evidence presents itself.

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5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@SeaJay, it's okay to trust yourself.  Truth rings true; and our minds are designed to recognize that.  If something causes so much doubt and confusion, it's not likely to be true; and it is perfectly fine to ignore that topic until/unless further evidence presents itself.

Like a gut instinct 

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16 minutes ago, SeaJay said:

Like a gut instinct 

Yes.

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21 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Thanks both, that’s really helpful and eases my anxiety a bit. It’s odd that I can’t really think like this. I’m trying but I’m either not capable or, if it’s just a case of still learning, then I have been learning for years and still can’t seem to do it. Sometimes it’s like I’m a child who needs comforting or tutoring or something. Perhaps it’s a case of I can and do think this way, but I need to hear it from another person to confirm my own conclusions (so reassurance then). Is it called critical thinking? 

Well, the need for reassurance can go both ways. An absolute trust in your own opinions/reality gets you solipsism, an absolute, unquestioning trust in another gets you mental servutude and possibly brainwashing.

     I like to think of this as the middle good position is a skeptical openness to dialogue. And this a process where can and do get things wrong, more of less. But it has a built in correcting mechanism :)

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6 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

Well, the need for reassurance can go both ways. An absolute trust in your own opinions/reality gets you solipsism, an absolute, unquestioning trust in another gets you mental servutude and possibly brainwashing.

     I like to think of this as the middle good position is a skeptical openness to dialogue. And this a process where can and do get things wrong, more of less. But it has a built in correcting mechanism :)

I like that way of thinking. 

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On 7/26/2021 at 10:50 PM, SeaJay said:

I think this question got lost in the Edit I added after it. I thought I’d repost it here as it’s very relevant. 
 

When you left the faith, did you worry that you were seeing  signs, or, being communicated with in some way, to show that you were wrong?

 

I have this anxiety that it might be happening now and then.”

The universe is such a complex system with billions of living beings (that we know of), and things and processes interacting constantly, that events which could be explained in multiple ways are going to happen all the time. When we encounter such an event, we still need to respond do it somehow, so if we've spent a lifetime thinking in Christian terms and valuing things according to Christian values, our first reaction might be to see it through that lens: "Could this be a message from God?" "Could this be a miracle?" etc.

 

This is biased thinking, though, and considering the full implications of that proposed explanation makes it more clear: "Why might my friend have stopped by today?" "1. He hasn't seen me for a while, and he's just come up with some new argument he wanted to tell me about", "2. Some other plausible explanation", or "3. There's actually a person existing independently of space and time, without the need for a universe to exist in, and he's got very specific opinions on eating pork and shellfish and having sex, even though those things probably don't exist outside the universe, and he's hiding so that it seems like he doesn't exist, but will occasionally talk to us by having very random or strange things happen and leaving us to guess." One of these explanations is less likely than the others.

 

Of course, assuming that reality is in any way coherent can also be seen as a bias, but reality is at least there every day.

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6 hours ago, Rounin said:

The universe is such a complex system with billions of living beings (that we know of), and things and processes interacting constantly, that events which could be explained in multiple ways are going to happen all the time. When we encounter such an event, we still need to respond do it somehow, so if we've spent a lifetime thinking in Christian terms and valuing things according to Christian values, our first reaction might be to see it through that lens: "Could this be a message from God?" "Could this be a miracle?" etc.

 

This is biased thinking, though, and considering the full implications of that proposed explanation makes it more clear: "Why might my friend have stopped by today?" "1. He hasn't seen me for a while, and he's just come up with some new argument he wanted to tell me about", "2. Some other plausible explanation", or "3. There's actually a person existing independently of space and time, without the need for a universe to exist in, and he's got very specific opinions on eating pork and shellfish and having sex, even though those things probably don't exist outside the universe, and he's hiding so that it seems like he doesn't exist, but will occasionally talk to us by having very random or strange things happen and leaving us to guess." One of these explanations is less likely than the others.

 

Of course, assuming that reality is in any way coherent can also be seen as a bias, but reality is at least there every day.

This is the kind of critical thinking skills I hope to learn! 
 

Thank you for sharing this. 

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1 hour ago, SeaJay said:

This is the kind of critical thinking skills I hope to learn!


I think you have pretty good critical-thinking abilities, @SeaJay.  Critical thinking comes from one part of your brain, while faith and the accompanying anxiety come from a different part.  Your challenge will be to pay heed to the critical-thinking side, and recall the things you’ve learned, when anxiety raises its ugly head.  You’ve shown the ability to do that on a number of occasions.  The more you exercise that skill, the better it will get.   

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11 hours ago, TABA said:


I think you have pretty good critical-thinking abilities, @SeaJay.  Critical thinking comes from one part of your brain, while faith and the accompanying anxiety come from a different part.  Your challenge will be to pay heed to the critical-thinking side, and recall the things you’ve learned, when anxiety raises its ugly head.  You’ve shown the ability to do that on a number of occasions.  The more you exercise that skill, the better it will get.   

True. Thank you TABA. 

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On 7/26/2021 at 10:08 AM, SeaJay said:

Thanks both. I’m feeling a bit better after rationalising it and reading both your posts. 
 

The funny thing is (and cutting a long story short), knowing what I know about this friend, if anyone was going to knock my door and tell me they had a message for me - it would definitely be this friend. But not only did they say nothing of the sort, they said things that sounded to me, just plain wrong. 
 

Also, I think to myself, if this was a sign:

 

(a) I admitted to myself that Christianity probably isn’t true, 11 days ago, so why did I have to wait so long, why not 10 minutes after I admitted it, or even two or three days later? The timing doesn’t really make sense, unless it’s nothing but a coincidence

 

(b) I’m utterly convinced that a supreme creator of the universe could let me know in no uncertain terms that I was wrong; I know they could do a much better job than that (and I’m not even trying to be remotely sarcastic or disrespectful in saying that). So what my friend said (and didn’t say) also doesn’t make much sense, unless it’s nothing but a coincidence. 
 

Trying to think logically about it. 

 

Not to mention that everything he said is blatantly false and delusional on his part. If he has disproven evolution or knows of someone who actually has, it would be global news. But as it stands, every christian claim to have disproven evolution is false. And that's why evolution still stands - because no one has disproven it. 

 

No one has silenced all of the atheists, in fact. Let alone this joe blow who no one knows. What you need to do with a chump like that is tell them to go to ex christian.net and show everyone the winning arguments for christianity. Whoever makes bold claims, send them here. Then observe what happens to their claims. 

 

So the next issue is if this were a sign, what kind of a sign could it be??????

 

He's clearly wrong. We can demonstrate that he's wrong. What kind of a sign is a guy who shows up with 'incorrect information and false claims' out of the blue as you're denouncing christainity? 

 

Wouldn't that be a sign that christianity really is false as you've concluded?

 

And that christian adherents really are this level of delusional as they try and grasp at anything to cling on to false beliefs?

 

There wasn't anything true about his claims. He represents a sign or affirmation of false beliefs if he represents anything at all. Why don't you take THAT as a sign and move on in confidence knowing that the opposition is this weak and unable??? 

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7 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Not to mention that everything he said is blatantly false and delusional on his part. If he has disproven evolution or knows of someone who actually has, it would be global news. But as it stands, every christian claim to have disproven evolution is false. And that's why evolution still stands - because no one has disproven it. 

 

No one has silenced all of the atheists, in fact. Let alone this joe blow who no one knows. What you need to do with a chump like that is tell them to go to ex christian.net and show everyone the winning arguments for christianity. Whoever makes bold claims, send them here. Then observe what happens to their claims. 

 

So the next issue is if this were a sign, what kind of a sign could it be??????

 

He's clearly wrong. We can demonstrate that he's wrong. What kind of a sign is a guy who shows up with 'incorrect information and false claims' out of the blue as you're denouncing christainity? 

 

Wouldn't that be a sign that christianity really is false as you've conclused?

 

And that christian adherents really are this level of delusional as they try and grasp at anything to cling on to false beliefs?

 

There wasn't anything true about his claims. He represents a sign or affirmation of false beliefs if he represents anything at all. Why don't you take THAT as a sign and move on in confidence knowing that the opposition is this weak and unable??? 

Absolutely right! I have to wholeheartedly agree with this. 
 

I tell you, just being here, seeing how you all think is real eye opener! And I mean in a good way. 
 

Thank you. 
 

Whilst I’m here, this morning, right before I woke up, I had a thought pass through my mind and it was “To them that have recovered, those I will call sons of Levi.” 
 

I’ll be honest, it really shook me up, because I thought it might be a sign. What did I think it meant? Something along the lines of, “To them that endure suffering and come out the other end, those I will call my sons.” Or something like that. 
 

Then I thought, well, it was definitely a dream (because it actually woke me up) and not something abnormal. Also, “recovered”? That doesn’t really make sense because having a non belief isn’t like, an illness, it isn’t a sickness you can recover from, it’s just a state of mind. 
 

Finally, if a supreme creator wanted to communicate something to me, I’m absolutely certain they could do so in a manner that would leave me in no doubt whatsoever. 
 

Still shook me up though. That’s an example of the kind of thing I struggle with almost every day. 

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1 hour ago, SeaJay said:

Finally, if a supreme creator wanted to communicate something to me, I’m absolutely certain they could do so in a manner that would leave me in no doubt whatsoever. 

This exactly! Most people in our society either really WANT to believe or are very afraid to NOT believe. The result is rampant confirmation bias in attempts to justify the belief. Obviously a real god of the Abrahamic type could and would relate to people as they would expect; we wouldn't have to look for, and find, Jesus on the burnt toast or sure confirmation in the random coincidences that everyone experiences, religious or not.

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5 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Finally, if a supreme creator wanted to communicate something to me, I’m absolutely certain they could do so in a manner that would leave me in no doubt whatsoever. 
 

 

Yes, if there were a supreme creator that wanted to communicate to you and everyone else, it would simply do it. Not veiled, not cryptic, not metaphor, not anything but straightforward and unmistakable communication by a supernatural entity that has no restrictions or bounds.

 

The biblical narrative is a lie. Opposite truth.

 

That's why it never adds up, never lines up with sound logic and reason, and can never be successfully argued or proven by apologist's. Our Lion's Den is full of examples of apologist's failing to prove their own claims. People failing over and over at proving the bible true. This isn't by accident. They are starting from false premises. When you start out like that you can never transform the premise from false to true. It won't work. You'll keep getting false results. This is what happens when I challenge them to demonstrate the truth of Genesis. They can't do it. And have to quit trying at some point because it can't be done. 

 

 

 

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Guys I don’t know what is happening to me. I’m a bit scared. 😳
 

I have rapid breathing, tingly hands, I am light headed with tunnel vision. My breathing is all over the place even when I was meditating. No tightness or pain in chest and I just did 40 press ups to see if there were any adverse effects and there were none. Just had to take a diazepam. Think I am starting to calm down. Panic attack? Not sure. Felt different but, I was definitely scared. No pain or anything just like, hyperventilating. Not had it before. Oh boy oh boy. Not nice at all. 
 

i just hope it’s my body reacting (to me admitting Christianity probably is not true), after all it was a big decision for me. Huge because of my anxiety. Think I’m calming A bit after the diazepam. 
 

Phoning the doctor for some advice (and hopefully more diazepam). 

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You were right to call the doctor.  Something like that could be a panic attack, or something more serious.  Not that panic attacks are trivial.  I hope you’re doing better now.  
 

 

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9 minutes ago, TABA said:

You were right to call the doctor.  Something like that could be a panic attack, or something more serious.  Not that panic attacks are trivial.  I hope you’re doing better now.  

Bit better, yes. My breathing has returned to normal, well, pretty much. Had to take that diazepam though. I think it was a panic attack because even now, when I’m slowly settling down, I’m getting little bouts of panic now and again. It just arises seemingly from nowhere. Nothing like it was though. 

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SeaJay, given the serious anxiety you’ve suffered over the years, given that your worst terrors were related to Christian theology, and given that you found no relief inside of Christianity, I’m convinced that giving yourself permission to deconvert was an important, even necessary step for you.  I think you know that.  Your anxiety is not going to go away overnight but your ability to think clearly has improved: I’ve seen it.  

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I still absolutely believe it was the right decision. 
 

Spoke to the doctor, they said it sounded like a panic attack. Offered to check me over, said I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time, so asked her what she thought, and she said she didn’t think it was necessary. She gave me more diazepam and also prescribed beta blockers. 
 

Also, I told my wife I no longer believed and she was absolutely fine with it. No problem at all. That’s great because now I can read my secular books and not fear getting caught. Not that she would have said anything. I guess if you asked her if she was a Christian she’d say yes, but she never goes to church, don’t think I’ve ever seen her pray, or ever read the Bible. No doubt I was worrying over nothing.
 

What me worry? 😀

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