I Realised Something

[SeaJay]

Starting to feel a bit panicky again , though not as bad. 

[TABA]

25 minutes ago, SeaJay said:

Starting to feel a bit panicky again , though not as bad

 

I'm sorry, man.  But this too shall pass.  It will subside. 

 

 

Meanwhile you have good reason to be optimistic...

2 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Also, I told my wife I no longer believed and she was absolutely fine with it. No problem at all.

 

This is GREAT news and you have one less thing to worry about now!

 

One of the benefits of deconversion is the elimination of the notorious Cognitive Dissonance that often goes along with theistic religion:  professing faith while also harboring doubts.  It's a stressful state to be in.  Your admitting to yourself that you no longer believe relieves that stress, and you will very likely experience that relief for the long-term.  It's very typical among us here.  Feeling unable to share your doubts and then your unbelief with your wife will also have been a source of stress: feeling like you couldn't reveal your true self to your nearest and dearest.  And now that problem has been eliminated too.  So I encourage you to think about the progress you've made and to anticipate a better life ahead.  You have a lot to look forward to, SeaJay!

 

[SeaJay]

Thank you TABA. 

 

And I’m calm again. Just ate a nice healthy salad, and now I’m relaxing in bed. Yes, not having to worry about my wife walking in when I’m reading some secular book is great. 

[Joshpantera]

On 7/30/2021 at 10:10 AM, SeaJay said:

I still absolutely believe it was the right decision. 
 

Spoke to the doctor, they said it sounded like a panic attack. Offered to check me over, said I didn’t want to waste anyone’s time, so asked her what she thought, and she said she didn’t think it was necessary. She gave me more diazepam and also prescribed beta blockers. 

 

My step son has panic attacks too. He doesn't believe in christianity at all so his panic attacks have no relation to christianity. But they happen anyways and will grasp on to other issues outside of religion. I wonder if you're just naturally prone to panic attacks and because of christianity the panic reaches in that direction? 

 

With my step son, whereas he may have once reached for religious thoughts and ideas in his head when panic attacks arose, he has put religion out of his mind as a real possibility, so the panic has no bearing on religious issues. It will be about his truck, or work, or some other mundane issue or thoughts within his mind.

 

The panic wants to find something to focus on. Like depression. I remember when I used to suffer bouts of depression and I would feel like shit and then start looking for something to try and associate it with. Because there was no good reason to feel that way and I would try and find a reason in the absence of any good reason. Luckily I was able to overcome those issues with age. I was able to step back and observe myself doing these things to myself. And then use logic and reason to navigate my way out of it. It took a while but I did it. I haven't had a depression set back beyond the age of 30. Prior to that it was a fairly regular issue. I had to get past christianity and then take issue with underlying condition as well. 

 

So keep in mind that you may have two separate issues going on here and removing christianity may not remove panic attacks if it's a much deeper issue which has only latched onto christianity for something to focus the panic on. Yes, christianity ought to be cast aside. Then you can better focus on what could be an underlying condition. And intellectualize it and use your logical mind to observe the affliction pulling you in different directions. What I did was simply cut it off. If I'd start feeling depressed I'd intellectualize it and decide to not let it go any further. You are a logical thinker and you may able to do something similar. In conjunction with your meditation, medication, and counseling. 

[SeaJay]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

My step son has panic attacks too. He doesn't believe in christianity at all so his panic attacks have no relation to christianity. But they happen anyways and will grasp on to other issues outside of religion. I wonder if you're just naturally prone to panic attacks and because of christianity the panic reaches in that direction? 

 

With my step son, whereas he may have once reached for religious thoughts and ideas in his head when panic attacks arose, he has put religion out of his mind as a real possibility, so the panic has no bearing on religious issues. It will be about his truck, or work, or some other mundane issue or thoughts within his mind.

 

The panic wants to find something to focus on. Like depression. I remember when I used to suffer bouts of depression and I would feel like shit and then start looking for something to try and associate it with. Because there was no good reason to feel that way and I would try and find a reason in the absence of any good reason. Luckily I was able to overcome those issues with age. I was able to step back and observe myself doing these things to myself. And then use logic and reason to navigate my way out of it. It took a while but I did it. I haven't had a depression set back beyond the age of 30. Prior to that it was a fairly regular issue. I had to get past christianity and then take issue with underlying condition as well. 

 

So keep in mind that you may have two separate issues going on here and removing christianity may not remove panic attacks if it's a much deeper issue which has only latched onto christianity for something to focus the panic on. Yes, christianity ought to be cast aside. Then you can better focus on what could be an underlying condition. And intellectualize it and use your logical mind to observe the affliction pulling you in different directions. What I did was simply cut it off. If I'd start feeling depressed I'd intellectualize it and decide to not let it go any further. You are a logical thinker and you may able to do something similar. In conjunction with your meditation, medication, and counseling. 

Thank you for the reply. 
 

it’s interesting you should say my panic attack is probably linked to something more than Christianity. I think you’re right and I think I know what it is. 
 

I started a new thread that talks about my ultimate underlying source that fuels most of my anxiety:  

 

[TABA]

1 hour ago, SeaJay said:

It’s interesting you should say my panic attack is probably linked to something more than Christianity. I think you’re right and I think I know what it is. 
 

I started a new thread that talks about my ultimate underlying source that fuels most of my anxiety

I don’t think the ultimate underlying source of your problems is the fear of death.  And it’s not Christianity either.  Christianity, with all the punishments and convoluted ways of avoiding them, is poisonous for somebody like you, so it’s good you’re out.  But the basic problem is your anxiety.  Your challenge in life is going to be to find ways to manage and even overcome it.  
 

As a wise man just said:

5 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

The panic wants to find something to focus on. Like depression.

 

[SeaJay]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

I don’t think the ultimate underlying source of your problems is the fear of death.  And it’s not Christianity either.  Christianity, with all the punishments and convoluted ways of avoiding them, is poisonous for somebody like you, so it’s good you’re out.  But the basic problem is your anxiety.  Your challenge in life is going to be to find ways to manage and even overcome it.    
 

As a wise man just said:

 

Maybe. But with all the therapists I have seen, none of them suggested I was depressed. Sure I get down from time to time, but I don’t think I have ever been depressed. I could be wrong but I’ve always viewed depression as an incredibly strong feeling of sadness. I think it has other aspects too, like despair, and feeling like there’s no point to anything anymore. I don’t think I have ever felt like that. Low mood yes, but nothing on that magnitude. But as I say, I could be wrong and welcome correction if that’s the case. 

[TABA]

I was referring to anxiety, SeaJay.  Josh was talking about his past depression.  In both cases, the person’s mood is often unrelated to external situations.  Josh’s depression would seek external situations to justify itself.  Your anxiety does something similar.  Your problem is neither Christianity, which can be avoided, nor the prospect of eventual death, which cannot.  The problem is chronic anxiety, a psychiatric disorder.

[Myrkhoos]

3 hours ago, TABA said:

I was referring to anxiety, SeaJay.  Josh was talking about his past depression.  In both cases, the person’s mood is often unrelated to external situations.  Josh’s depression would seek external situations to justify itself.  Your anxiety does something similar.  Your problem is neither Christianity, which can be avoided, nor the prospect of eventual death, which cannot.  The problem is chronic anxiety, a psychiatric disorder.

I would not be so hasty in putting out diagnosis like that. Especially for someone you barely know.

      Trauma relating to spirituality can produce anxiety ( which cannot simply be "avoided "). Nor can Christianity itself be avoided by someone who has relatives or friends, ir neighbours involved.

  Also death anxiey is a real thing which has many books on it. Yalom has one about it. 

     Or it can be something for childhood. Or lack of some nutrient. Or excess of it. Or some slow type of poisoning due to water. Or a genetic  predisposition. And the list goes on. So I would hesitate in saying the exact cause,or the exact cure. No offense, but sadly anxiety as a symptom than can emerge from multiple single or clusters of causes.

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

5 hours ago, TABA said:

Your problem is neither Christianity, which can be avoided, nor the prospect of eventual death, which cannot.  The problem is chronic anxiety, a psychiatric disorder.

I would not be so hasty in putting out diagnosis like that. Especially for someone you barely know.

 

I believe that's exactly what the Dr.'s have diagnosed - chronic anxiety. And have prescribed anti-anxiety medication. TABA is just pointing out that it's the anxiety underlying the other issues like christianity and fear of mortality. He gets anxious about fear of death and that ushers in viewing from the christian perspective that he's grown up familiar with. 

 

 

[pantheory]

7 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Maybe. But with all the therapists I have seen, none of them suggested I was depressed. Sure I get down from time to time, but I don’t think I have ever been depressed. I could be wrong but I’ve always viewed depression as an incredibly strong feeling of sadness. I think it has other aspects too, like despair, and feeling like there’s no point to anything anymore. I don’t think I have ever felt like that. Low mood yes, but nothing on that magnitude. But as I say, I could be wrong and welcome correction if that’s the case. 

 

Panic attacks are what they call them but from my experience and studies for some they may have little or nothing to do with stress or panic. Years ago I had one when I was resting on vacation and they called it a heat stroke. A couple years later I had another and they called it a metabolic affliction. Later on they called it a panic attack when I was lounging by a pool. in my studies I realized they were all the same thing related to unusual variations of the nervous system sometimes without any apparent cause. I was first prescribed Ativan (Lorazepam), then Xanex (Alprazolam) for this condition\. They both worked well for me when I felt like I might have such a problem coming on, so it never happened.  I realize now it had nothing to do with stress or panic in my case. Since that prescription, the problem no longer exists since I always carry a few pills with me. These pills are also good for sleeping pills when needed.

[Myrkhoos]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I believe that's exactly what the Dr.'s have diagnosed - chronic anxiety. And have prescribed anti-anxiety medication. TABA is just pointing out that it's the anxiety underlying the other issues like christianity and fear of mortality. He gets anxious about fear of death and that ushers in viewing from the christian perspective that he's grown up familiar with. 

 

 

       Where did Seajay say he was diagnosed with that as the underlying issue? 

There is a bit of chicken and egg issue here. For ex, trauma from Christianity can cause anxiety, which causes you latch on to some teachings, which causes you more anxiety and so and so. Anxiety is a symptom. It is like being diagnosed with low stomach acid. That is only a symptom.  In general modern psychiatry has not caught up with trauma theory, nutrition, neurology THAT well. 

      If a dr is unfamiliar with Christian digma and its potential, he can easily diagnose OCD, bipolar, anxiety even schizophrenia. A psychiatry resident friend of mine told that exact thing happened. People who exit from cults often suffer from misdiagnosis like that. Read Steven Hassan. I also reccomend Dan Shaw and Alexandra Stein for some interesting obs.

    Plus Seajay said that one of his old therapists said fear of death was an underlying cause.

     There is a guy, Le doux I think, who wrote a book about anxiety and his obs about the biological underpinnings.

     I was cautioning against being very sure about how another's psyche actually works, that's all.

    My current philosophy is try, with open skepticism, and ser what works, especially long term and keep it as long as needed. Medication, meditation, counseling, body centered trauma work, quitting gluten, getting a dog, etc. 

[Joshpantera]

14 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

 I was cautioning against being very sure about how another's psyche actually works, that's all.

    My current philosophy is try, with open skepticism, and ser what works, especially long term and keep it as long as needed. Medication, meditation, counseling, body centered trauma work, quitting gluten, getting a dog, etc. 

 

These are just suggestions. We don't do anything professional level here and make sure people know that. This has been going on with SeaJay for a long time. Many posts about it over the years and we've been working with him and suggesting counseling, which, he's done. 

 

The rest of it is just for sake of conversation. I'm proud of SeaJay's ability to come back at this thing with a logical mindset. That's rare. A lot of people come here with similar issues. Some have run back to christianity too. Going through manic episodes. But he's doing really well. It's good to people make real head way like this.

[SeaJay]

On 7/31/2021 at 10:00 PM, TABA said:

I was referring to anxiety, SeaJay.  Josh was talking about his past depression.  In both cases, the person’s mood is often unrelated to external situations.  Josh’s depression would seek external situations to justify itself.  Your anxiety does something similar.  Your problem is neither Christianity, which can be avoided, nor the prospect of eventual death, which cannot.  The problem is chronic anxiety, a psychiatric disorder.

Ah sorry, I think I mixed up the threads. 
 

So, it could be biological; in my genes so to speak. In that case, if it wasn’t Christianity or death, my anxiety would just latch on to something else. A therapist has told me that in the past. 

[SeaJay]

Hey thanks all for the replies and encouragement, I appreciate it. For the record, I have been diagnosed with GAD (Generalised Anxiety Disorder), Social Anxiety, and ADHD. Recently my anxiety manifested as a form of OCD where I had to disinfect the house every morning (for six months). CBT therapy and coming to admit my unbelief has removed about 95% of the OCD. 
 

But what is interesting, is, about an hour ago, I started feeling quite anxious about a doctrinal teaching I thought I’d left behind. It is crazy because, I’ve had many other situations in the last couple of weeks of the same issue and they never affected me. Today though, it’s spiked my anxiety. Doesn’t make sense. It’s as if my anxiety is saying, “Ok I got to have something to worry about but I have nothing, so let’s go back and use something we’ve already overcome.”

 

It sucks on times

[Joshpantera]

10 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Today though, it’s spiked my anxiety. Doesn’t make sense. It’s as if my anxiety is saying, “Ok I got to have something to worry about but I have nothing, so let’s go back and use something we’ve already overcome.”

 

 

Yes, this is what I was getting at. 

 

Using depression as a parallel example again, my mother still has it. She will cycle through depression. When it starts up she will go and look at pictures of my deceased sister, or her father and brothers, and give herself something to focus on while the genetic or biological depression takes over.

 

There's something about not having any good reason to feel that way that causes people to create a reason as some type of place holder. I know what she's doing because I used to do it myself. And I've tried to inspire her to do what I've done and kick it cold turkey. But she either can't or won't. 

 

Switch over to anxiety and you clearly have identified similar happening to you and you are intellectualizing it. Looking at it as scientifically as you can manage. This is the very thing I've tried encouraging my mother to do. Her mind or personality type seems to hold her back from beating this on her own. Even though she's seen her son do it. Who was once just like her in that regard. She's dropped religion a long time ago too. But continues to struggle on with the deeper root problems. 

 

This is a mess when you add something christian religion into the mix. But even without it, there's still hurtles to climb. And christianity is beyond toxic for people who struggle with these natural, genetic conditions. It's never going to fix the problem and if anything it's going to only magnify and intensify the problem. 

[Myrkhoos]

On 8/1/2021 at 11:10 PM, Joshpantera said:

 

These are just suggestions. We don't do anything professional level here and make sure people know that. This has been going on with SeaJay for a long time. Many posts about it over the years and we've been working with him and suggesting counseling, which, he's done. 

 

The rest of it is just for sake of conversation. I'm proud of SeaJay's ability to come back at this thing with a logical mindset. That's rare. A lot of people come here with similar issues. Some have run back to christianity too. Going through manic episodes. But he's doing really well. It's good to people make real head way like this.

I wanted to make a thread asking just that. If you know anyone who went back to some form of Christianity.

[SeaJay]

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Yes, this is what I was getting at. 

 

Using depression as a parallel example again, my mother still has it. She will cycle through depression. When it starts up she will go and look at pictures of my deceased sister, or her father and brothers, and give herself something to focus on while the genetic or biological depression takes over.

I’m sorry to hear about your loss

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

There's something about not having any good reason to feel that way that causes people to create a reason as some type of place holder. I know what she's doing because I used to do it myself. And I've tried to inspire her to do what I've done and kick it cold turkey. But she either can't or won't. 

 

Switch over to anxiety and you clearly have identified similar happening to you and you are intellectualizing it. Looking at it as scientifically as you can manage. This is the very thing I've tried encouraging my mother to do. Her mind or personality type seems to hold her back from beating this on her own. Even though she's seen her son do it. Who was once just like her in that regard. She's dropped religion a long time ago too. But continues to struggle on with the deeper root problems. 

Science is my way out of this. I’m 100% certain. 
 

18 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

This is a mess when you add something christian religion into the mix. But even without it, there's still hurtles to climb. And christianity is beyond toxic for people who struggle with these natural, genetic conditions. It's never going to fix the problem and if anything it's going to only magnify and intensify the problem. 

I think you are the 4th person to tell me that, and one of them was a psychologist of 20 years in the field. 

[Joshpantera]

16 hours ago, SeaJay said:

I’m sorry to hear about your loss

Science is my way out of this. I’m 100% certain. 
 

I think you are the 4th person to tell me that, and one of them was a psychologist of 20 years in the field. 

 

A lot of people don't get it. They think that because christianity professes goodness that it's good. It's only professing to be good. And even more to the point, it's professing to be good against the standard of some 2,000 years ago. When good meant that owning slaves is ok, viewing women as property was ok, forcing religion down other peoples throats was ok and a virtue. 

 

In reality it's way outdated by todays standards of morality and society has gone beyond the bronze age world view of the bible. Threatening people with eternal flame for simply not believing you is NOT a virtue! In total, I think there's much more wrong with the bible and christianity than there is useful moral teaching. The few points that people will pick out are obvious things like do unto others as you'd have done unto yourself, which, is just basic common sense. No bible is needed. Especially when the bible merely copied the slogan from previous cultures who, through common sense, had already long since figured that out - it wasn't even original. 

 

Long story short, those are some of the reasons that it's more toxic than anything else, especially for people who are struggling. People think it's good and you're bad if you don't go along with it, but that's just not true. It's ultimately toxic and you can do far better without it if you use common sense, social logic, and reason. 

[TABA]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:07 PM, Joshpantera said:

And christianity is beyond toxic for people who struggle with these natural, genetic conditions. It's never going to fix the problem and if anything it's going to only magnify and intensify the problem

I’d say the main reason Christianity is toxic to somebody prone to anxiety is the fact that the Bible raises more questions than it answers…

 

What happens when we die?

Is there a Heaven? Who exactly goes there?

Is there a Hell? Who goes there?

Are some people just annihilated when they die?

 

What must I do to be saved?

Is belief in Jesus enough, or do I have to be baptized too?

Do I have to do good works to be saved?

Is baptism by sprinkling sufficient or does it have to be full immersion?

 

Can salvation be lost?

Once saved always saved?

If I leave Christianity can I go back later or not?

What is the Unforgivable Sin?  Can I commit it without knowing it?

 

Does God choose those who will be saved?

 

And on and on it goes.  All these questions have divided believers for centuries.  Wars have been fought.  Heretics have been burned at the stake.  Because the Bible gives no clear answers to any of these questions.  The idea that the Bible is a message from a deity is not just unbelievable, it’s ludicrous. 

[Joshpantera]

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^Extremely good point!^^^^^^^^^^^

[SeaJay]

Thank you all for the time you take to reply, it’s appreciated. It really is. 

[Myrkhoos]

Like was said, "good" is variable as a standard. You couod say "good" is the ideal standard of a person/community. The "law" in a way. 

      I mean fear of Hell, terror actually, is considered a good thing in many Christian circles.

[pantheory]

On 7/30/2021 at 11:33 AM, SeaJay said:

Thank you TABA. 

 

And I’m calm again. Just ate a nice healthy salad, and now I’m relaxing in bed. Yes, not having to worry about my wife walking in when I’m reading some secular book is great. 

 

A healthy salad is great. secular reading stuff is OK too as long it's not anti-religious; just keep the porn stuff under your mattress

[SeaJay]

Bit edgy this morning.

 

I'm sat here doubting my doubting. What I mean is, I am worried I might still believe - even though I have no reason to do so.

 

I don't mean - I believe once more - in the sense that, 'I have had more information so I believe again', it's a fear that my initial reasoning (when I said, "I realised at the start of my Christian journey, I did not truly believe"), might be flawed reasoning - and so in that case, I have never stopped believing. 

 

I'm worrying that, when I said back in July that I realised I never truly believed - what if I was just lying to myself?

 

In other words, what if I am just sticking my fingers in my ears and shouting "It's no true - I am not listening - it's not true!"

 

I can't go back to how it was before July, there is just no way, it'll be too much.