Christianity is collapsing

[♦ Fuego ♦]

On 7/25/2021 at 3:38 PM, DarkBishop said:

Not everyone that is pro gun is a religious Nutt.

 

I grew up with them and enjoy them. It is just odd that there is a strange god/gun/patriotism thing with so many believers today. I was watching a rant-cast by comedian Lewis Black where a listener wrote it that their right-wing family has ruined the American flag as a symbol because they use it on everything to endorse their new proud-to-be-stupid politics. The testoster-trucks raging down the roads locally have had the same effect for me. I nearly equate the flag now with rude fascist jerks who equate big loud trucks with being a good American. People gravitate to symbols, religious and political, so much that they equate them with what they are supposed to represent. And it gives them a reason to be enraged when someone disrespects their symbol. And the bigger the symbol the better! A local run-down motel was recently purchased by a avid Christian who wants to use it to help people get off drugs. Noble cause. But out in front is a giant glowing white cross fluorescent sign. Above that is a sign with a Harley engine and a skull, because Jesus and skeletons driving Harleys. I supposed it is advertising to the crowd he wants to attract. After deconversion, I've backed away from cherishing symbols or adorning myself with any. I do like the old Norse ones, but I have no business wearing them, nor do I really want to. 

[midniterider]

21 hours ago, Fuego said:

 

I grew up with them and enjoy them. It is just odd that there is a strange god/gun/patriotism thing with so many believers today. I was watching a rant-cast by comedian Lewis Black where a listener wrote it that their right-wing family has ruined the American flag as a symbol because they use it on everything to endorse their new proud-to-be-stupid politics. The testoster-trucks raging down the roads locally have had the same effect for me. I nearly equate the flag now with rude fascist jerks who equate big loud trucks with being a good American. People gravitate to symbols, religious and political, so much that they equate them with what they are supposed to represent. And it gives them a reason to be enraged when someone disrespects their symbol. And the bigger the symbol the better! A local run-down motel was recently purchased by a avid Christian who wants to use it to help people get off drugs. Noble cause. But out in front is a giant glowing white cross fluorescent sign. Above that is a sign with a Harley engine and a skull, because Jesus and skeletons driving Harleys. I supposed it is advertising to the crowd he wants to attract. After deconversion, I've backed away from cherishing symbols or adorning myself with any. I do like the old Norse ones, but I have no business wearing them, nor do I really want to. 

 

I've only seen one testoster-truck in the last few weeks. 

[Joshpantera]

On 7/26/2021 at 11:29 PM, Fuego said:

After deconversion, I've backed away from cherishing symbols or adorning myself with any. I do like the old Norse ones, but I have no business wearing them, nor do I really want to. 

 

I like some of the old pagan symbols that carry ancient meanings. Obviously not in a religious or nationalistic sense, but in the sense of respecting old symbolism.

 

Maybe someone can coin a clever symbol that symbolizes the final collapsing of christianity.....

 

 

[older]

Forgive me for resuscitating this old thread but here is a recent article that might be of some interest. The subhead reads:

"A new and rapidly growing Christian movement is openly political, wants a nation under God’s authority, and is central to Donald Trump’s GOP"

 

Most of this can be skimmed but the beginning and the end report what these folks think. And they have money and are seeking power.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/11/mercy-culture-church/

[nontheistpilgrim]

11 hours ago, older said:

Forgive me for resuscitating this old thread but here is a recent article that might be of some interest. The subhead reads:

"A new and rapidly growing Christian movement is openly political, wants a nation under God’s authority, and is central to Donald Trump’s GOP"

 

Most of this can be skimmed but the beginning and the end report what these folks think. And they have money and are seeking power.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/11/mercy-culture-church/

It's not new and it is growing by 'circulation of the saints'.

This quote says it all, doesn't it?: “I don’t understand it; I just know it’s God,” Autumn said.

For me this is the evil of the worst kind of christianity.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

2 hours ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

It's not new and it is growing by 'circulation of the saints'.

This quote says it all, doesn't it?: “I don’t understand it; I just know it’s God,” Autumn said.

For me this is the evil of the worst kind of christianity.

 

Not new at all. I remember a speaker at my church in the late 80s talking about "American Heritage" that the USA was really Israel, that we existed because of Manifest Destiny, that God was using our country as his chosen instrument to being the gospel to the world. But that was being "raped away from us" (hyperbole, what does that even mean?) by politicians controlled by the devil. Soon I noticed the word "heritage" being applied to Christian businesses and schools everywhere, much like "patriot" is being used now by RealAmericans™. The goal of influencing politics and taking power has long been a goal of those in the church, which is exactly why we need separation of church and state, and why the church tries every way possible to erode that concept. To them, belief trumps facts, and the act of doing that kind of belief is celebrated by the cult. It's a plague of stupidity that has been with humans around the globe for a very long time, and not just the Christian version. 

[ConsiderTheSource]

On 7/26/2021 at 8:29 PM, Fuego said:

The testoster-trucks raging down the roads locally have had the same effect for me. I nearly equate the flag now with rude fascist jerks who equate big loud trucks with being a good American.

Me too.  100% me too.

 

I used to fly the flag.  Now, I don't.  I want to fly it.  But, it would label me as something I don't want to be labeled as.

 

I could fly it in combo with the Rainbow Flag....but then it just becomes another politcal symbol.  And.....that would not be my objective.

 

I hope the day returns when I can comfortably fly the flag 

[Joshpantera]

On 8/12/2021 at 7:24 PM, older said:

Forgive me for resuscitating this old thread but here is a recent article that might be of some interest. The subhead reads:

"A new and rapidly growing Christian movement is openly political, wants a nation under God’s authority, and is central to Donald Trump’s GOP"

 

Most of this can be skimmed but the beginning and the end report what these folks think. And they have money and are seeking power.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/11/mercy-culture-church/

 

The most important feature of this train of thought to me is that (1) christianity IS collapsing and that (2) as it's collapsing struggles will be made as it falls. The idea of a "rapidly growing" anything to do with christianity is something rapidly growing among a 'collapsing group of people' who are shrinking in number altogether. I'm sure things will spread through the collapsing group, as it continues to collapse and shrink. 

 

Robert Price did a piece a while back about how dying religions react as they die off.

 

Flare up's of ultra conservative movements, in his view, are signs of the end. And he sees the same going on concerning Islamic militants and terrorists. As these religions become increasingly irrelevant fundamentalist's rise up to try and bring back the 'old ways.' But ultimately fail. It was a very interesting piece but I don't remember where I saw it on youtube. I had posted it a few times in the past. When you see the numbers decline like that from around the beginning of the current century to now, it's pretty much in lock step with what Price was seeing back then. He noticed the trends early on. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

Me too.  100% me too.

 

I used to fly the flag.  Now, I don't.  I want to fly it.  But, it would label me as something I don't want to be labeled as.

 

I could fly it in combo with the Rainbow Flag....but then it just becomes another politcal symbol.  And.....that would not be my objective.

 

I hope the day returns when I can comfortably fly the flag 

 

Well I suppose that you're in a pickle in that way. Or you can fly the flag and take a fuck you attitude towards anyone who has a problem with it or wants to mislabel you in anyway. 

[TABA]

2 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 

I used to fly the flag.  Now, I don't.  I want to fly it.  But, it would label me as something I don't want to be labeled as.

Some people literally wrap themselves  in the flag.  Some like to burn it.  To each his own.  As for me,  I worked to become a citizen of this country and I’ll be damned if I allow anybody to label me as anything other than an American.   If somebody else wants to project something onto your flying of your country’s flag, that’s their problem, not yours. 
 

[ConsiderTheSource]

50 minutes ago, TABA said:

If somebody else wants to project something onto your flying of your country’s flag, that’s their problem, not yours. 

I don't fully agree.  

 

Yes, their problem.  But, definitely my problem too as long as this particular symbol is seen as signaling group membership in a group I want zero association with.  

 

Ignoring the reality accomplishes little.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

I don't fully agree.  

 

Yes, their problem.  But, definitely my problem too as long as this particular symbol is seen as signaling group membership in a group I want zero association with.  

 

Ignoring the reality accomplishes little.

 

 

 

I dont like seeing the flag flown on trucks just because at those speeds it rips to shreds and the assholes flying it usually don't keep a proper flag flying. They forget about it and old glory ends up looking pretty shameful. I gotta buy a new flag holder for the front of my house. I think I may do that next weekend I'm off and fly her again. Been several months since mine broke. 

 

On another note. I want a testoster-truck. I absolutely love the way they look lol. But I dont want the payment. Those trucks are anywhere from 60-90 thousand dollars. Almost like buying a damn house. Maybe one day . 

 

 

[Myrkhoos]

8 hours ago, TABA said:

Some people literally wrap themselves  in the flag.  Some like to burn it.  To each his own.  As for me,  I worked to become a citizen of this country and I’ll be damned if I allow anybody to label me as anything other than an American.   If somebody else wants to project something onto your flying of your country’s flag, that’s their problem, not yours. 
 

I don't get nationalism, but , strangely enough I do have a strong reaction to the national hymn. It was written during the long fight for independence and unificatio  in Romania and I just find it very touching, emotionally. It literally says to fight for freedom or die trying. I find it very inspiring on a personal level, altough filled with Christian terminology in one stanza. 

     Also I recently started to have a truer admiration for my ancestors, mostly peasants. My great grandfather fought in wwI, his son in WWII, etc. Just an appreciation of their very real struggles and sacrifices so I started to dislike the outright , - well they were backward people let's look to the "civilised" West attitude. I don't have a medal for fighting in the antifascist war like my granfather so... while criticism is valid, a level respect is also owed. Granted it is a more of a respect your elders stuff then performative nationalism. I call it a critical respect for my ancestors.

     

[TABA]

8 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

But, definitely my problem too as long as this particular symbol is seen as signaling group membership in a group I want zero association with

‘Seen’ by who, though?  This website is seen by many as evil and satanic.  I’m still glad to be a member, a moderator and a supporter.  The American flag is seen by many as representing a Christian nation.  I don’t care, this atheist gonna fly it regardless.  It’s seen by others as representing racism.  I’m still not taking it down.  How do you see it?  That’s what matters.  If to you it represents something bad, don’t fly it.  

[TABA]

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

On another note. I want a testoster-truck. I absolutely love the way they look lol. But I dont want the payment. Those trucks are anywhere from 60-90 thousand dollars.

 
If you lived here in WV you could win a testoster-truck just for getting vaccinated.  Big flag not included.  A friend of ours won one. She traded it for a less manly vehicle.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

11 minutes ago, TABA said:

 
If you lived here in WV you could win a testoster-truck just for getting vaccinated.  Big flag not included.  A friend of ours won one. She traded it for a less manly vehicle.  

 

I actually got the first pfizer shot this week. Kinda forced to really. Was worried about everything I'd heard. But I can't see my son graduate bootcamp if I'm not vaccinated. So I got it. I still think that vaccine was a bit rushed for my liking. I have just enough time to get the two weeks in after the last shot before he graduates, so I can be fully vaccinated. They didn't say anything about winng a truck unfortunately .  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

21 minutes ago, TABA said:

How do you see it?  That’s what matters.

Damn good point. 

 

Just keep ole glory looking good please

[florduh]

The meaning of symbols evolves. Consider the history of the Confederate Battle Flag, the Cross and the Swastika. 

 

In popular American culture, the American Flag meaning has been hijacked by right wing nationalists and Evangelical/Dominionist religious cults. The flag is established as a sign of patriotism, but the definition of "patriot" has changed as well. Nothing means what it used to mean since the American underbelly of nationalism, racism and xenophobia was set free by certain political interests I can't go into here. You can deny it, you can fight it, but displaying the American flag these days doesn't mean at all what it did even five years ago.

 

[TABA]

23 minutes ago, florduh said:

In popular American culture, the American Flag meaning has been hijacked by right wing nationalists and Evangelical/Dominionist religious cults.

If I took my cues from popular American culture I’d be watching trash TV and going to church tomorrow.  
 

The airliners on 9/11 were demonstrably hijacked.  Whether the ‘meaning’ of the flag has been hijacked is a matter of opinion, as is ‘meaning’ itself. Who decides?

 

25 minutes ago, florduh said:

You can deny it, you can fight it, but displaying the American flag these days doesn't mean at all what it did even five years ago.

I do deny it.   I decide what the flag - or life itself - means to me.  It means something else to you.  Different Strokes.   
 

This topic has deviated significantly from ‘Christianity is Collapsing’, so we should put a stop to it if it doesn’t get back on track… 

[♦ ficino ♦]

An article from 2018 on young people in Turkey, many of them female, rejecting Islam and becoming deists or not believing at all:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43981745

[TABA]

2 minutes ago, ficino said:

An article from 2018 on young people in Turkey, many of them female, rejecting Islam and becoming deists or not believing at all:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43981745

Thanks for getting us back on track, buddy!   Or close enough, anyway. 

[sdelsolray]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I actually got the first pfizer shot this week.

...

A good and smart choice.

[florduh]

2 hours ago, TABA said:

I decide what the flag - or life itself - means to me.

Fine, but everyone else will make assumptions based on what that symbol currently denotes. I may believe the Swastika is still the symbol of good fortune, spirituality, etc. but if I wear one in public what assumptions would be made today? Just pointing out that things change.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This might be a good time to remind everybody that we've got a kinder, gentler ToT forum down in the Opine Club, in case y'all want to continue with y'all's flag waving and such.  I still get a bit nervous around Irishmen talking about flying the colors, myself; but that's a story for a different thread.  Anyway, y'all are welcome to have at it there, if you'd like.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 hours ago, florduh said:

The meaning of symbols evolves. Consider the history of the Confederate Battle Flag, the Cross and the Swastika. 

 

In popular American culture, the American Flag meaning has been hijacked by right wing nationalists and Evangelical/Dominionist religious cults. The flag is established as a sign of patriotism, but the definition of "patriot" has changed as well. Nothing means what it used to mean since the American underbelly of nationalism, racism and xenophobia was set free by certain political interests I can't go into here. You can deny it, you can fight it, but displaying the American flag these days doesn't mean at all what it did even five years ago.

 

 

Yeah I can't agree with that at all. The American Flag is the Flag of my country. From my perspective it's been hijacked by not one but two extremist groups. The ones you speak of and the ones on the far left that want to use it as a symbol of protest. Kneeling instead of standing, burning instead of flying, trampling it under foot rather than lifting it high in honor of all those that have fought to keep our freedom and spread freedom all over the world. Both sides are vomit in my mouth. Whether they lift it supporting racism or burn it for BLM. Keep our countries flag out of all that bullshit. That's not what it is about. You should never liken our Nation Flag to a damn swastika.