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The Lord's delayed return


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Good morning everyone! ExChristian and Christian alike,

 

I have had a thought in the past couple debates that have happened. I have even mentioned it in comments in some threads. But I feel like a thread should be dedicated to the thought because it really is of significant relevance concerning Christianity. And that is. 

 

Why has the Lord taken so LONG to return? 

 

Don't stop reading there because I would like to elaborate a little. 

 

According to encyclopedia Britannica and most of the Christian and Jewish world the story of Moses allegedly happened between 1440 and 1250 BCE. And Moses is the religiously accepted author of the first five books of the Bible.

 

Now I don't believe that. But thats not the question for this thread. So let's just slide that issue off on the back burner for a bit. 

 

My thought has been that at the most. The earliest accepted prophecies of Jesus coming as the messiah would have been from Moses, in 1440 BCE. That would have been 1440 years before Christ's birth. And we have now been waiting for his return for 2000 years. 

 

I'm going to throw in an excerpt from Mathew 24. But keep in mind the whole chapter is talking about "end time prophecy". 

 

Jesus said in Mathew 24:30-34

 

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

The promise in verse 34 in my opinion is probably the bane of Christendom. It has been an issue of lost faith even from the early church as is reflected in the epistles.

 

It certainly seems that the apostle Paul thought that the coming of the Lord would be in his lifetime. 

 

1 thessolonians 4:14-17

 

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Paul places himself with those that are alive and remain twice in the same chapter. 

 

In 2nd Peter it looks like he had to go to bat for the Good Lort because of his tardiness. Apparently some people were starting to teach that he wasn't coming back. The first chapter is filled with greetings, the 2nd is condemning those that have turned away and back into sin spreading the heresy that Jesus wasn't coming.  Finally the third chapter kicks the 2nd coming of Jesus down the road but still sounds like he expects it to be within his lifetime. 

 

2 Peter 3:1-10

 

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

In the first highlighted verse it speaks of scoffers. Obviously the scoffers he  speaks of are the very ones mentioned in the second chapter. Which indicates to me this author thinks the end times are near. Maybe even in his lifetime. 

 

Verses 8 and 9 seem to give a wider time frame but the wording of the rest of the chapter make it seem like the end is expected any time now. 

 

And as we can see in our more modern history. Every generation seems to think that Jesus will come in their lifetime.  Over and over and over the story goes. Originally they thought Nero was the antichrist because of the persecution they endured. I dont know how many were accused of being the antichrist but I know that Hitler was accused, the pope at times was thought to be the antichrist, and I'm sure many more through the millenia. 

 

Now taking all this into consideration, are we really to believe that the 1st coming of Jesus was prophesied at the most 1440 years before his birth. Yet the 2nd coming has been expected for 2000 years? Why would God Almighty tell everyone that a messiah was coming, promising all these wonderful things for his children (isreal, specifically the 12 tribes) then he comes? The 12 tribes get the shaft and afterward everyone has to wait at this point 2000+ years before he ends it all, finally dispenses justice, and takes us to his glorious kingdom that he has prepared? 

 

Are we supposed to believe at this point, 2 millenia later, That yep he's still coming? It just does not logically make sense.

 

Nevermind all the discoveries that debunk the Bible in SO many ways. Even indicating that many books of the Bible were forged, one book I just quoted is widely considered a forgery.

 

Just the promises contained in the new testament continue to fail Over and over and over. Christians wait longer and longer and longer. Is it really any wonder that the Christian church is suffering in this day in age. How long can you seriously expect people to believe that this Jesus fella is actually coming back after so long? 580 years longer than it took him to come the first time? Some may argue that he was prophesied in the Garden. I'm talking about when it was given to the people. Granted I don't believe in the Garden of eden. But either way, biblically, the law, commandments, and even the story of the garden didn't come along until Moses. So people weren't told about this messiah until 1440-1250 BCE. Or atleast it wasn't written yet. Maybe passed down through stories that got bigger and better every generation. 

 

The Jewish people didn't see those scriptures as prophecies of Jesus 1st coming. And still don't. To them Christ was a fraud I imagine. 

 

Now from an ExChristian standpoint having read secular books written by scholars. Mostly Prof. Bart Ehrman. But some others too. This issue makes more sense as I can now see this was a major issue in the early church and books were written well after the apostles death to fight this issue. Hence the need for the forgeries in the apostles name in the first place. This doctrine of perpetually waiting for his return was a doctrine that evolved over time. As he continued to be a no show, they had to change their interpretations. 

 

But for you that still believe. What gives? Why the long wait? I once believed that eventually the last soul would be saved and he would come then. But now I realise that there will probably always be people gullible enough to fall for the Christian snare. In that case it would be an infinite wait. So again. What gives? Why hasn't he come? And at this point could you make a logical argument to support waiting another 1000 years or so? 

 

Best regards,

Dark Bishop

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It's simples, innit? Jesus is god. god is three including the spirit. jesus returned as the spirit at pentecost. it's all over.

Well, that's an argument I've heard. There's always a way round problems.

It's simples, innit it?

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12 minutes ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

It's simples, innit? Jesus is god. god is three including the spirit. jesus returned as the spirit at pentecost. it's all over.

Well, that's an argument I've heard. There's always a way round problems.

It's simples, innit it?

That's a new one to me. But I could see that being someone's apologetic answer. Wonder why they were still expecting a final coming after Pentecost if that was what Jesus meant?

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The book of Revelation speaks of a thousand year period when the devil is cast into the bottomless pit and christ reigns on earth.  This has led many to debate over whether "The Rapture" would take place before, during, or after that thousand year period.  Pre-millennial interpretation places it before; post-millennial thought holds it will occur after.  Obviously, given that this has become a major theological sticking point, as god knew it would, we can now understand that when jesus referred to "this generation" he was talking about millennials.   This is why millennials aren't getting married and having traditional families.  It's why they killed the housing market and the diamond industry.  And it's why they are determined to rid the world of the disgusting blight of avocados and the befouling putrescence they bring with them.   

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7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The book of Revelation speaks of a thousand year period when the devil is cast into the bottomless pit and christ reigns on earth.  This has led many to debate over whether "The Rapture" would take place before, during, or after that thousand year period.  Pre-millennial interpretation places it before; post-millennial thought holds it will occur after.  Obviously, given that this has become a major theological sticking point, as god knew it would, we can now understand that when jesus referred to "this generation" he was talking about millennials.   This is why millennials aren't getting married and having traditional families.  It's why they killed the housing market and the diamond industry.  And it's why they are determined to rid the world of the disgusting blight of avocados and the befouling putrescence they bring with them.   

 

So again... we are in the end times now? Right Prof. Redneck?

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2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

So again... we are in the end times now? Right Prof. Redneck?

Of course.  Once the pestilence of avocados is done, there'll be famine.  Mark my words.

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4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Of course.  Once the pestilence of avocados is done, there'll be famine.  Mark my words.

 

I guess I'm for sure going to hell now. I like avocados 🥑 😋 

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Well..... I guess they all agree the wait has been long. Last call for alcohol and he still hasn't shown up. Guess the bride got stood up eh? 

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5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Well..... I guess they all agree the wait has been long. Last call for alcohol and he still hasn't shown up. Guess the bride got stood up eh? 

If my interpretation is correct (which, of course it is, because the holy spirit and shit), jesus will not return until all of the vile, rancid, and malodorous avocados are depleted from the earth and the fetid stench of their existence is wiped from human memory.  Come quickly, lord.  🚫🥑

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     Jesus did come back.  It's just not allowed into canon so it doesn't count.

 

          mwc

 

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On 8/3/2021 at 12:35 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If my interpretation is correct (which, of course it is, because the holy spirit and shit), jesus will not return until all of the vile, rancid, and malodorous avocados are depleted from the earth and the fetid stench of their existence is wiped from human memory.  Come quickly, lord.  🚫🥑

 

You once again prove why you're on this site.  I denounce you as a heretic.  The other weekend I found a silver coin in my backyard and after picking it up I was blinded by the sun - clearly a sign.  While regaining my sight I had a vision that the coin in my hand contained a translation of the gospels stating the return our lord coincides when the whole world has tasted the savory goodness of the avocado.

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  • 3 weeks later...
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17 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

I learn so much from this site..

Are there any other fruit which are repugnant and offensive in the sight of God?

I know that Monks Fruit and Bitter Melon are pleasing to the lord.  But, beyond avocados, I don't know of any other abominations... except tomatoes probably.

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On 8/5/2021 at 7:29 PM, Krowb said:

 

You once again prove why you're on this site.  I denounce you as a heretic.  The other weekend I found a silver coin in my backyard and after picking it up I was blinded by the sun - clearly a sign.  While regaining my sight I had a vision that the coin in my hand contained a translation of the gospels stating the return our lord coincides when the whole world has tasted the savory goodness of the avocado.

You've been deceived by the enema... I mean... enemy.  Everybody knows the fruit that the rib woman ate was an avacado.  And she believed, as you do, that it was "pleasing to the eye and good for food."  But it brought sin into the world.  That is why god is using "this generation" to eradicate this blasphemous abomination from the earth before his return.  Repent, thou, therefore this day; and turn from the wickedness of thy ways.

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21 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

Repent, thou, therefore this day; and turn from the wickedness of thy avacado ???

For thou Hass done evil in the sight of the lord.

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Pray thee forgive me, for I have sinned.  The force of your arguments tore me and I felt the lord move through your words.  I admit I was deceived and wish to be cleansed of my unfaithfulness.  

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15 hours ago, Krowb said:

Pray thee forgive me, for I have sinned.  The force of your arguments tore me and I felt the lord move through your words.  I admit I was deceived and wish to be cleansed of my unfaithfulness.  

Say 10 Alma Maters and spray your hosiery.  Then go forth and sin no more.

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On 7/31/2021 at 4:36 AM, DarkBishop said:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Paul places himself with those that are alive and remain twice in the same chapter. 

 

So Ellen G White repeated this and did the same general thing. She didn't set dates, but she stood there in front of people and said that some of the people in the audience she was talking to would be "food for worms," while some would be among the elect. Playing off of this same verse.

 

That was in the late 19th century. Her visions had her among the 144,000 remnant of Israel. Instead, she just died in the early 20th century with no such second coming ever taking place. At that point it should have been well understood that her visions were wrong, the SDA church a hack job, and the whole thing should have dissolved. 

 

Cognitive dissonance kept it alive, though. 

 

Just the same as christianity staying alive back then in Paul's time, after his claims were clearly proven wrong. Paul was not alive and remaining during a second coming either. 

 

Cognitive dissonance kept it alive back then. 

 

Think about it. Paul was long gone when Marcion found the epistles in Antioch. These claims of Paul were already proven false BEFORE the first cannon was created. That's how blind people can be. And then SDAism illustrates how people can turn around, completely missing the point of Paul being wrong in the first place, and actually repeat the same claims again centuries later only to suffer the same fate. And yet believers carry on oblivious to the whole thing. Never understanding that (1) claims are being made which (2) are proven wrong at the death of the individual making the claims. 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

DarkBishop,

 

The Jews believe to this day that their Messiah (savior) has not yet come but will still be coming.

 

According to the biblical BS, Jesus said:

 

"If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

 

Maybe the idea of a coming savior adds comfort to many people, especially women I expect. as being required servants of man. In my lifetime I have known a number of Jews who have converted to Christianity, and upon their "losing the faith" they too could be amongst us here as X-Christians.

 

I believe your arguments against the New Testament are good, but such arguments can indicate a continued attachment to such ideas, as it does for all others that like to engage in serious religious debate IMO.

 

As to your quoting of the bible, reading and quoting that BS keeps one still involved with religion. Move on to greener pastures where religion is nothing but manure. You can do it -- you are the dark bishop.

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Hello Dark Bishop.  :) 

 

I think I can provide a decent answer to your question, 'Why has it taken Jesus so long to return?' 

 

My answer is simply this.  Because God cannot be trusted to keep his word.  All that is needed is just one instance of god breaking his own word to demonstrate that nothing he says can be trusted.  This is the fatal weakness of anything that is declared to be perfect.  Perfection isn't something that is infinitely strong and unbreakable.  Perfection is actually incredibly weak.  Just one flaw and the whole façade comes crashing down.  This is not a slippery slope or a grey zone.  It is black and white.  All or nothing.  Absolute perfection or absolute imperfection.

 

We can see this principle written down in James 2 : 10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

 

This principle MUST apply to god too.  If it doesn't, then what value are his promises, his decrees and his laws?  If he can break any promise he makes or violate any of his own laws, then how can he trusted?  

 

My favourite example of god breaking his own word is where he curses Adam and Eve with physical (not spiritual) death and where scripture explicitly declares that this curse applied to every human being who ever lived - even Jesus himself.

 

Genesis 3 : 19 & 20

 

19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken;

for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

And this curse won't be lifted until some time in the future, after Judgment Day and after the dead are raised from the dust, when the saved enter the New Jerusalem.

 

Revelation 22 : 1 - 3.

 

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 

2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 

3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

 

So, according to scripture, there is no way that any of us can bypass, dodge or sidestep god's curse.  It applies to everyone, without exception.

 

Hebrews 9 : 24 - 28 confirms this.  See how the logic works out?  In the same way that Christ died ONCE ONLY and entered heaven ONCE ONLY, so everyone will die once and then face judgment.  That is god's curse upon Adam and Eve becoming the destiny of everyone.

 

 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 

25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 

26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

Now we come to the test!  According to the Bible, was god good to his word when he cursed Adam and Eve, making physical death the unavoidable destiny of all?

 

The answer is a resounding NO!

 

The patriarch Enoch did not physically die but went up to heaven alive.  Check out Genesis 5 : 24 and Hebrews 11 : 5 to see how this happened.  The prophet Elijah was taken up to heaven alive, in a fiery chariot.  You can read about this in 2 Kings 2 : 11.  

 

God broke his own word and spared these two from the curse of death that applied to every other human being.  The fallout from this is devastating.  God does not keep his own word.  He breaks it when he sees fit.  This makes him unreliable and untrustworthy.

 

So, if we go back to Hebrews 9 : 27 & 28, we can see why the lord's return has been delayed for so long.

 

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

If god could be trusted then he would have kept his word and made his curse of death apply to Enoch and Elijah.  But he broke his own word.  Therefore, the many promises given about the return of Jesus cannot be trusted either.  Once god breaks his own word then he is guilty of breaking all of his promises, his decrees and his own laws.  The principle set down and explained in James 2 : 10 convicts god himself as untrustworthy.  In simple words, a liar.

 

Hebrews 6 : 18 declares that it is impossible for god to lie.  Oops!

 

The examples of Enoch and Elijah clearly show that god did lie.  When he pronounced the curse of physical death on Adam and Eve and all their descendants he would have already decided that he was going to spare at least two people from that fate.  That was a lie.

 

And there is your biblically sound reason why the lord's return has been delayed for so long, Dark Bishop.

 

God can't be trusted to keep his appointments.

 

He's a liar.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter. 

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On 10/5/2021 at 7:59 AM, walterpthefirst said:

He's a liar.

@walterpthefirst, I would argue that god's lying ways began long before Enoch or Elijah, or who-some-ever else was even born.  In Genesis 2:17, god tells Adam that he will die in the day he eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  But in Genesis 5:5, we find that Adam lived for 930 years.

 

Now, some folks have tried to reconcile this by quoting 2 Peter 3:8, "a day with god is like a thousand years."  So, Adam did die the day he ate the fruit since he lived 70 years fewer than a millennium. 

 

The problem is, that is what the apostle said; but it's not what god said (and who you gonna believe?).  In Genesis 1:5, and throughout the rest of the creation story, a day is clearly defined as consisting of 1 morning and 1 evening.  Years, decades, and centuries are not mentioned; and certainly not millennia. 

 

So, god obviously meant for Adam to understand that, if he ate the fruit, some time between that morning and that evening, he would surely die.  The scenario god led Adam to believe was along the lines of nom nom, thud.  But some 900 years later, Adam is still kicking like a chicken.

 

god is clearly a liar.

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god's lie doesn't stop there, either, @walterpthefirst; it goes much deeper.  In Genesis 3:22, god is trying to figure out what to do with Adam now that he had become like god, knowing good and evil.  god decides to banish Adam from The Garden, lest Adam also eat from the Tree of Life and live forever.

 

So, even after eating the fruit of knowledge, Adam was still immortal, so long as he had access to the Tree of Life.  Eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was never going to bring death to Adam and the omniscient god knew that.  It was banishment from The Garden, thereby denying access to the Tree of Life that brought death to Adam. 

 

So, god's claim that eating the fruit of knowledge would bring Adam's death was simply a bald-faced lie.  Not only because god knew he would not die that same day; but also because god knew the power of life and death depended on having access to the Tree of Life.  And god knew he would ultimately deny Adam access to it.

 

Moreover, it was not "sin" that brought death upon all of humanity, excepting your two buddies; rather, it was god's response to Adam's curiosity that killed us all.  god was never interested in a "perfect" creation; and this was never about "sin."  If it were about perfection versus sin, god would never have planted the Tree of Life in The Garden.  Instead, he deceived Adam into condemning himself and the rest of humanity with him.

 

god is not just a liar; he is a fucking liar.

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

god is not just a liar; he is a fucking liar.

 

Tell us how you really feel.

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On 10/7/2021 at 9:56 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@walterpthefirst, I would argue that god's lying ways began long before Enoch or Elijah, or who-some-ever else was even born.  In Genesis 2:17, god tells Adam that he will die in the day he eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  But in Genesis 5:5, we find that Adam lived for 930 years.

 

Now, some folks have tried to reconcile this by quoting 2 Peter 3:8, "a day with god is like a thousand years."  So, Adam did die the day he ate the fruit since he lived 70 years fewer than a millennium. 

 

The problem is, that is what the apostle said; but it's not what god said (and who you gonna believe?).  In Genesis 1:5, and throughout the rest of the creation story, a day is clearly defined as consisting of 1 morning and 1 evening.  Years, decades, and centuries are not mentioned; and certainly not millennia. 

 

So, god obviously meant for Adam to understand that, if he ate the fruit, some time between that morning and that evening, he would surely die.  The scenario god led Adam to believe was along the lines of nom nom, thud.  But some 900 years later, Adam is still kicking like a chicken.

 

god is clearly a liar.

 

Hello Professor.  :)

 

Yes, I've seen you make this argument before, here in the Den. 

 

What should have happened, if god was being completely truthful and straight with Adam, is that on the day he ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, he should have died before sundown.   But, as you've pointed out, he lived to be 930 years old and then died.

 

Christian apologists use two different kinds of death as a get-out-of-jail card for god.  Adam died spiritually on the day that he disobeyed god and then physically, some nine centuries later.  God is therefore excused of lying to Adam's face.  Everything ordained by god to happen, happened. 

 

But my argument removes any possibility of god being excused.  I do that by using scripture itself.  By using god's own words and his Word against him.  Like this.

 

1.  God gives Adam lordship over Eve.

2. Therefore, whatever curse god inflicted upon Adam was also inflicted upon Eve. 

3. Genesis 3 : 20.  Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of ALL the living.

4. Therefore, god's curse of physical death must apply to Enoch and Elijah, who were both descended from Adam and Eve.

5.  But Enoch did not physically die and neither did Elijah, both being taken up into heaven ALIVE.

6.  The curse of death upon ALL of the living somehow bypassed them.

7.  Which means that something has to give.

 

Either the bible is inaccurate and can't be trusted or the bible is accurate and god can't be trusted.    My personal preference is for the latter.  Let the Christians have their properly accurate holy book.  One that accurately records god violating his own decrees.  I.e., lying.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

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